Excommunication for the mother of a 9 year old rape victim

[Zzarchov]

That's the drawback of a democracy. Majority rules and if the majority are Catholic, you lose. Fortunately, we are moving away from democracy in North America.

No, in most democracies the rights of minorities are preserved by rights. Otherwise there would be no Catholics in the USA or Canada by this point. Long ago they would have been forced to convert.

The Catholics are just making up rules are they go for political points. The catholic tradition is being breached, if they want to be a political party they should register as one, follow the same laws and pay their taxes.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

That's the drawback of a democracy. Majority rules and if the majority are Catholic, you lose. Fortunately, we are moving away from democracy in North America.

Cannuck, others have set you straight, but let me add my two cents’ worth. Majority rule is not democracy, it is mob rule. In a majority rule, the population can bring back the slavery, or take away vote from women by 50% + 1 vote.

Democracy is rule by the majority, combined with guaranteed protections for the minority. The protection is guaranteed in the constitution and usually it is very difficulty to amend the constitution, it can never be done by 50%+1 vote (Except in USA, where anything can happen). Constitutional amendment can happen only if there is a broad consensus in the country about an issue.

Thus in Canada we cannot declare gays to be second class citizens by a 50%+1 referendum, we cannot ban abortion by 50%+1 referendum and so on.

 

[Kreskin]

Sorry to digress..I am impressed that this topic has been discussed so calmly, even with the differing opinions. I gave out reps to everyone participating in this thread. You guys and girls are awesome.

 

[Cannuck]

No, in most democracies the rights of minorities are preserved by rights.

In a true democracy there is no rights for minorities. Freedom and democracy are not synonymous but this is a topic for another thread.

 

[Cannuck]

Cannuck, others have set you straight, but let me add my two cents’ worth.

I've never been interested in semantics. While you may not get the point, I'm sure most do.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

In a true democracy there is no rights for minorities. Freedom and democracy are not synonymous but this is a topic for another thread.

I guess we differ on what is meant by democracy. What you call democracy, I call mob rule. To me, democracy is what I described before, rule by majority, with ironclad guarantees for minority rights.

 

[Diarygirl]

I can't imagine how the church would condem the mother of a nine year old girl who chose to abort. The child was nine years old!! She wasn't 13 or 14 and is she could carry a child full term, would she have been okay to deliver? Her life was at risk here. Never mind the trauma of being raped and the physcological affect that was on her and her mother as well.
Over the years, the churches have tried to brainwash their people into believing that they had to confess their sins to a priest, not to God. Yet, priests are only human. God knows all, in my opinion and He is a forgiving God. (If you believe what has been passed down through history.) Why is it that the church turned their heads when it was faced with their priests molesting children and then they can condemn a mother for making a life threatening choice of aborting a fetus that was formed from a rape, a rape from no other than a step father to add? What is the world coming to? God help us all! There are some sick people on earth. Nine year old child raped??? In my opinion, the church should stay out of it and look in their corners first!!!!!!! Let God be the judge.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Sorry to digress..I am impressed that this topic has been discussed so calmly, even with the differing opinions. I gave out reps to everyone participating in this thread. You guys and girls are awesome.

Kreskin, my experience is that for the most part discussion remains civil and polite. There may be passionate disagreements, but usually the tone of discussion is pretty calm and level headed.

Until a certain poster gets involved (you probably know who I am talking about), he poisons the whole atmosphere, with his personal insults.

Even in this thread, if that certain poster gets involved, you will notice the difference right away; the whole thing will degenerate into a slanging match.

Really, I don’t know what is it about a fanatical belief in God, that makes his disciples insult others at the drop of a hat.

 

[Cannuck]

I guess we differ on what is meant by democracy. What you call democracy, I call mob rule. To me, democracy is what I described before, rule by majority, with ironclad guarantees for minority rights.

The definition of democracy is not really important. Rights are not "granted by democracies". Cuba is not a democracy and it is well within the Cuban government's power to give equality to any minority it so chooses. On the flip side Prop 8 in California just stripped gay people of their rights. There are no ironclad guarantees for minority rights unless the majority wish to enshrine them in a constitution that is un-amendable.

Again this is a topic for another thread. If you wish to continue start one up.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

On the flip side Prop 8 in California just stripped gay people of their rights.

Cannuck, sure it did, that is what I said in my previous post. What I said was the following:

Usually it is very difficulty to amend the constitution; it can never be done by 50%+1 vote (Except in USA, where anything can happen)

In USA they do amend the constitution by a 50% + 1 vote in a referendum, in my opinion, that is totally barbaric.

 

[Cannuck]

It may or may not be barbaric. It is however, democratic.

 

[Niflmir]

Excommunicating the people involved shows that the church is trying to maintain a consistent position at least.

If you maintain that abortion is wrong because it is murder of an innocent, then you don't get to discriminate based on how the life was conceived. That life is innocent of any crimes

Its funny because this up-to-now hypothetical situation was a favorite of mine for attempting to illustrate how barbaric this position on abortion is. Namely because it necessitates this sort of thing if you are trying to not be hypocritical.

 

[Zzarchov]

It is murder of the innocent in catholic tradition for sure.

But if someone actually murders a newborn baby they are not-excommunicated. Sinners are not booted out of the church.

 

[Spade]

Excommunication is an overtly political act. It is a shot across the bow in a domain the Vatican views as its own. It's a theological application of their "Monroe Doctrine."It would not have happened in Canada or the USA, for example.

 

[Tyr]

Tyr, Catholicism at its worst isn't really any better than Islam at its worst.

...or Buddhism or Protestantism or Hebrew or....

 

[SirJosephPorter]

...or Buddhism or Protestantism or Hebrew or....

Here I am going to disagree with you, Tyr, as least as far as Buddhism is concerned. Buddhism is a peaceful religion, it does not advocate violence, it is not interested in evangelization.

Buddhists barely believe in God. Buddhism says that God exists but he is not really concerned with day to day lives of individuals, that humans have to sort out their lives by themselves and try to become learned and wise, (or try to become a bodhisattva), like Buddha himself became.

That is why you may have noticed Buddhists don’t worship God; they worship Buddha (who was not even a Messiah, but a lowly Prophet).

So I wouldn’t lump Buddhism with Christianity, Islam etc., Buddhism is truly a religion of peace.

 

[Zzarchov]

Here I am going to disagree with you, Tyr, as least as far as Buddhism is concerned. Buddhism is a peaceful religion, it does not advocate violence, it is not interested in evangelization.

Buddhists barely believe in God. Buddhism says that God exists but he is not really concerned with day to day lives of individuals, that humans have to sort out their lives by themselves and try to become learned and wise, (or try to become a bodhisattva), like Buddha himself became.

That is why you may have noticed Buddhists don’t worship God; they worship Buddha (who was not even a Messiah, but a lowly Prophet).

So I wouldn’t lump Buddhism with Christianity, Islam etc., Buddhism is truly a religion of peace.

Buddhism is NOT A religion of peace in practice. Christianity is a religion of peace too, right up until people start practicing it.

Buddhism has its own history of violent conquest and oppression. Usually boiling down to the belief that lower castes and the conquered deserved to suffer, otherwise why would they have been reincarnated into a life where you were going to torture them?

The great thing about circular logic is that it proves itself!

Buddhism has its own share of terror in the chapters of human history.

 

[petros]

From what I understood about Catholicism, even murder isn't unforgivable. But, besides that, the doctors did this also because they feared for the girls life. A 9 year old body isn't ready to carry and give birth to twins.

What I want to know is what toxin is causing little girls to become fertile at age 9? That to me is far bigger a sin or outrage than an abortion. Alive and suffering mutant humans is a bigger concern than any abortion yet no church is fighting with as much vigor to protect the living.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Buddhism has its own history of violent conquest and oppression. Usually boiling down to the belief that lower castes and the conquered deserved to suffer, otherwise why would they have been reincarnated into a life where you were going to torture them?

Zzarchov, I think you are confusing Buddhism with Hinduism. Hinduism has a caste system, Buddhism doesn’t. Also, Hindus believe in reincarnation, I am not sure that Buddhists do.


The great strength of Hinduism is that it s very tolerant towards other religions. Its great weakness is that it is vicious towards its own lower caste members (the untouchables) and towards women.

However, I don’t think Buddhism has much of a history of violent conquests. As I said before, it does not believe in evangelization (which is really the great motivating force behind the bloody and violent conquest by Christians and Muslims). I think Buddhism is really a peaceful religion.

Even today, one hardly hears of any killings or atrocities by the Buddhists. If I had to adopt a religion, I would adopt Buddhism.

 

[Spade]

However, I don’t think Buddhism has much of a history of violent conquests. As I said before, it does not believe in evangelization (which is really the great motivating force behind the bloody and violent conquest by Christians and Muslims). I think Buddhism is really a peaceful religion.

Even today, one hardly hears of any killings or atrocities by the Buddhists. If I had to adopt a religion, I would adopt Buddhism.

Buddhism does preach peace.
From a BBC article on this topic.
BBC - Religion & Ethics - Buddhism and war
A quote from Buddhist scripure:
"In times of war
Give rise in yourself to the mind of compassion,
Helping living beings
Abandon the will to fight."

However, from the same article:
"But Buddhism, like the other great faiths, has not always lived up to its principles - there are numerous examples of Buddhists engaging in violence and even war.

In the 14th century Buddhist fighters led the uprising that evicted the Mongols from China
In Japan, Buddhist monks trained Samurai warriors in meditation that made them better fighters
In the twentieth century Japanese Zen masters wrote in support of Japan's wars of aggression. For example, Sawaki Kodo (1880–1965) wrote this in 1942:

It is just to punish those who disturb the public order. Whether one kills or does not kill, the precept forbidding killing [is preserved]. It is the precept forbidding killing that wields the sword. It is the precept that throws the bomb.
Sawaki Kodo
In Sri Lanka the 20th century civil war between the mostly Buddhist Sinhalese majority and the Hindu Tamil minority has cost 50,000 lives."