The Auto Bailout Scam

L Gilbert

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That's not the point. If the government is investing in the auto industry, there has to be a reason beyond job creation (jobs could just as easily be created in new industries). What what might these reasons be?
Sorry but profit IS the point. Gov't's main concern is not the public. It is the public's ability to fund the gov't. If the gov't sees that its public will be out of work, it will do things to see that they keep working and handing in tax money. Same with companies and corporations. People are only important because of their vote and their money.

....... If the objective is job creation, then lowering interest rates and education for the growing industries of the future would seem to make more sence, don't you think?
The vast majority of families in Canada own a vehicle and think they cannot get by without them. Try taking home a load of groceries for a family of four on a bicycle or bus some day. :roll:
Gov'ts in Canada have not been very friendly toward developing new industries and technology. Otherwise we would not let little countries such as Portugal and Germany outdistance us in alternative energy research and development.
The BANKS lower interest rates not the gov't. Banks do not tend to listen to gov'ts for financial advice.

Gov'ts have to strike a balance between keeping the people relatively happy, satisfying company and corporate needs, and making sure that they stay in gov't.
 
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Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
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Then please educate me. What's at stake for the government other than rewarding their union supporters for teh NDP and shareholder support for the Conservatives, with the Liberals geting a little of both?

It stinks of partisanship to me. If they support the bailout of a big industry with strong union roots, it benefits all sides, NDP especially.

What what good does it provide for the country? The poor? Ecology? Economic benefit?

Nada unless I'm missing something here? Like I said, please educated me here, and if indeed I missed something important, I'd be willing to change my mind aout it.
How many jobs are there in Canada that are either directly or indirectly involved in the auto industry? I don't know but whatever that number is multiply it by the average federal income tax they pay. Also add in gst that all the retailers get from those workers, additional government benefits to low income earners etc. I'm guessing it's probably substantial.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Sorry but profit IS the point. Gov't's main concern is not the public. It is the public's ability to fund the gov't. If the gov't sees that its public will be out of work, it will do things to see that they keep working and handing in tax money. Same with companies and corporations. People are only important because of their vote and their money. .

I see. If you mean profit for the government as distinct from the public, as opposed to the government as the servant of the public, then yes I must agree. But you see how education affects us? I chose to define profit as direct net benefit and not as benefit to one person at another person's expense, which I would define as 'transfer' rather than 'profit'. In school however, we did not look very deeply into where 'our' 'profit' comes from, and thus profit gained at the expense of another would still be counted as 'profit' according the the narrow definition in school, based on narrow accounting practices (and make no mistake about it, even accounting practices are ideologically laden, in spite of the appearance of objectivity and in spite of the fact that even many accountants aren't even aware of it. Even the creators of these practices probably weren't even aware of their own ideological bias when they create it, which just shows the lack of critical analysis taught in school).

I choose to make a social distinction however between 'profit' (which I define as net gain at no one else's expense) and 'transfer' (which I define as wealth going from one to the other with no just reciprocity). In this sence, universities need to quesiton the definition of their vocaulary a little more, and be more critical about it.


The vast majority of families in Canada own a vehicle and think they cannot get by without them. Try taking home a load of groceries for a family of four on a bicycle or bus some day. :roll:

If they're poor, they'll have no choice. And even among the middle class in urban centres such as downtown montreal sometimes prefer public transport to the car. I'd met at least one adult in downtown Montreal, middle class, and he didn't even care to get his driving license. Not that he was poor, he just saw no use for it. In Canada not everyone comes out of a cookie cutter. Some don't selebrate Christmas. Some don't eat meat. Some ride bicycles in winter. Some learn Klingon. And some don't want a car. Just because the majority acts like it got cut out of a cookie cutter doesn't mean that the minority should subsidise its cars.

Gov'ts in Canada have not been very friendly toward developing new industries and technology. Otherwise we would not let little countries such as Portugal and Germany outdistance us in alternative energy research and development.

How can we have these industries when our population lacks the necessary skills to work in these industries. Let's invest in education and the industries will come. To waste money on dinausaurs is not the way to do it. Let the companies go bankrupt and re-educate the unemployed. Upgrade their skills and the companies will follow.

The BANKS lower interest rates not the gov't. Banks do not tend to listen to gov'ts for financial advice.

If the Bankd of Canada lowers interest rates, sooner or later banks will follow. I do not agree with lowering interest rates at the cost of inflation of course, but certainly wise spending ought to bring inflaiton down ans so allow for a drop in interest rates. Flushing money into the mouths of dinosaurs doesn't help.


Gov'ts have to strike a balance between keeping the people relatively happy, satisfying company and corporate needs, and making sure that they stay in gov't.

I agree in spite of the injustice. And yet we tolerate it.
 

L Gilbert

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I see. If you mean profit for the government as distinct from the public, as opposed to the government as the servant of the public, then yes I must agree......
That is what the general idea of profit is.

I choose to make a social distinction however between 'profit' (which I define as net gain at no one else's expense) and 'transfer' (which I define as wealth going from one to the other with no just reciprocity). In this sence, universities need to quesiton the definition of their vocaulary a little more, and be more critical about it.
Are your definitions generally accepted?


The vast majority of families in Canada own a vehicle and think they cannot get by without them. Try taking home a load of groceries for a family of four on a bicycle or bus some day. :roll:

If they're poor, they'll have no choice. And even among the middle class in urban centres such as downtown montreal sometimes prefer public transport to the car. I'd met at least one adult in downtown Montreal, middle class, and he didn't even care to get his driving license. Not that he was poor, he just saw no use for it. In Canada not everyone comes out of a cookie cutter. Some don't selebrate Christmas. Some don't eat meat. Some ride bicycles in winter. Some learn Klingon. And some don't want a car. Just because the majority acts like it got cut out of a cookie cutter doesn't mean that the minority should subsidise its cars.
lol A few people out oif the population perhaps DON'T see the need for private transport. MOST do. Gov'ts hinge on MAJORITIES, not minorities.
Our kids are not in public school anymore. Why should we continue subsidizing other people's kids in public school?
Gov'ts don't generally cater to minorities. (Although Martin's gov't had a propensity to try making everyone happy a few times).

Gov'ts in Canada have not been very friendly toward developing new industries and technology. Otherwise we would not let little countries such as Portugal and Germany outdistance us in alternative energy research and development.

How can we have these industries when our population lacks the necessary skills to work in these industries. Let's invest in education and the industries will come. To waste money on dinausaurs is not the way to do it. Let the companies go bankrupt and re-educate the unemployed. Upgrade their skills and the companies will follow.
Sorry? Our population has the skill to make things like the Canadarm yet you seem to think we are some 3rd grade 3rd world country. Perhaps you would like to explain to grads of BCIT, McGill, SAIT, etc. that they are dense.

Canada's silicon valley goes west.(News and views: new and noteworthy information you can use) | Article from CMA Management | HighBeam Research

Celebrating Canadian contributions to cardiovascular research , Pulsus Group Inc




The BANKS lower interest rates not the gov't. Banks do not tend to listen to gov'ts for financial advice.

If the Bankd of Canada lowers interest rates, sooner or later banks will follow. I do not agree with lowering interest rates at the cost of inflation of course, but certainly wise spending ought to bring inflaiton down ans so allow for a drop in interest rates. Flushing money into the mouths of dinosaurs doesn't help.
Sometimes. Most of the time the BOC doesn't like to interfere with other banks and it is NOT under gov't direction. Introduction- About the Bank- Bank of Canada


Gov'ts have to strike a balance between keeping the people relatively happy, satisfying company and corporate needs, and making sure that they stay in gov't.

I agree in spite of the injustice. And yet we tolerate it.
Life is hard. The best we can do is continue to try to make it better.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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How many jobs are there in Canada that are either directly or indirectly involved in the auto industry? I don't know but whatever that number is multiply it by the average federal income tax they pay. Also add in gst that all the retailers get from those workers, additional government benefits to low income earners etc. I'm guessing it's probably substantial.

But look at where the money is coming from. To take an example. If I buy a GM car, GM makes money on it, pays its workers, and part of that money goes to taxes. In other words, that money is coming from the taxpayer.

Now let's change things around here, and I think this is the reason the Conservatives didn't want to do this at first. If the government gives the autosector money, the autosector can use that money to lower production cost to increase sales. So I buy a car more cheaply, GM makes less profit, gives that money to the workers, and they pay their taxes. The govenrment gets some money from me, but is that more or less than the amount it gave? If less, definitely not worth it unless some other social objective is to be met. Then it becomes just make work jobs that are a drain on the economy in which case it would be better for the economy for these workers to be unemployed.
If more, then how much more, and what are the opportunity cost (i.e. money we might be losing from better alternative investments. Sometimes its cheaper in the long term to let the industry fall, cause high unemployment, and retrain. Toyota could grow and take over if it's doing better, in which case the workers would simply be rehired by Toyota). In Saskatchewan there's a new environmentally friendly paper manufacturer that's growing. Maybe we could offer to train local unemployed peopel for that. Yes autmakers might lose jobs along with parts suppliers. But maybe they could produce more paper and suppliers could supply that too. Of course this si a simplified example, but the idea is to look for industries that are still growing and provide them with skilled workers rather than support an industry that's unable to stand on its own.

It's better to suffer now and prosper later than to stagnate now and suffer later.
 

Machjo

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Another point for Gilbert. If people can't live without vehicles, then let them buy vehicles so that we won't need the bailout. If they can't afford vehicles, then perhpas now is the time to live leaner.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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And Gilbert refers to all our grads.

Do we have enough of them? If they're all employed already and businesses have to compete for them, those businesses will move elsewhere where they can find qualified staff without having to compete with other companies to get them.

If we could increase the number of ualified staff for new industries, the companies will follow.
 

L Gilbert

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And Gilbert refers to all our grads.
Quite right. I wasn't referring to American grads or UK grads or whatever other ones there are.

Do we have enough of them? If they're all employed already and businesses have to compete for them, those businesses will move elsewhere where they can find qualified staff without having to compete with other companies to get them.
Bisinesses prefer healthy economies and operating conditions. They like to have qualified staff, too, but if the climate isn't good for them, there can be zillions of qualified personel around and they still won't operate. If there is a good climate and they can't find personel to staff the outfit, they will import personel. Did you notice how many people came from the rest of the country to Alberta for work in the past decade? The BC gov't hired American nurses to come here for work because there wasn't enough Canadian nursing staff available.

If we could increase the number of ualified staff for new industries, the companies will follow.
If they like the climate.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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People do buy vehicles. But they are buying more Japanese and others than the "big 3" and for good reason.

There you go. So let the Big 3 fall, which will make more room for the Japanese in the market later, and in the meantime retrain laid off workers. This will make more technically skilled workers more attractive to Toyota when it considers moving in. Why not support success rather than failure?

Retrain the workers for the growing companies, don't just keep wasting their time working for a doomed company.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
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The chain of events for allowing them to fail is likely a financial disaster for most Canadians. If they declare bankruptcy then the municaplities don't have the property tax revenue..as if homeoweners need another expense right now but they would have to cover the shortfall..then those communities would have to cut back on other things that employ people. Companies like Toyota would wait years before trying to buy up the assets.

Letting the "market" fix itself has been one of the tactics that got us into this mess. If this collapses then the problems will likely be far worse than they are today. Plus, the government is saying there would be conditions attached to the funds.
 

L Gilbert

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lol Yup. Pull almost a million workers jobs away, retrain them to do something else while forgetting that they have to eat, and invite more foreign companies in to take over from Canadian ones. Guess it's a step up for globalization, but .....
 

Risus

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May 24, 2006
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Four Billion bucks as a reward for building cars nobody wants.

Great.

You obviously don't have a clue about what the money is all about. First its a loan which has to be paid back. Second, the auto makers have to prove their intent to retool to meet specific conditions. Kindly read the facts before posting bs.
 

Tyr

Council Member
Nov 27, 2008
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The chain of events for allowing them to fail is likely a financial disaster for most Canadians. If they declare bankruptcy then the municaplities don't have the property tax revenue..as if homeoweners need another expense right now but they would have to cover the shortfall..then those communities would have to cut back on other things that employ people. Companies like Toyota would wait years before trying to buy up the assets.

Letting the "market" fix itself has been one of the tactics that got us into this mess. If this collapses then the problems will likely be far worse than they are today. Plus, the government is saying there would be conditions attached to the funds.

Letting one of the "Big 3" fail would not necessarily be a "bad" thing. Ford has been financial prudent and somewhat responsive to market demands. GM has been.... well GM (greed and arrogance) and they should have their feet held to the fire for a minimum the next three years and probably divest half their assests, but not go into bankruptcy.

Chrysler should be allowed to fail. Of the three they are by far the weakest sister and don't have the necessary economies of scale to survive.

The American gov't should really be leaning on "Big Oil" to buy up to 9% of the stock from the "fire sale" as they are heavily dependant upon the auto industry in their business model. Why 9% and not more?

If they bought more than 9% they would have a seat on the board and any new development towards hybrids or electic cars would be quashed - not a good thing

For all of the "ya but...." the price of a barrel of oil is below $50. Today it is. That won't last more than a month and by March it will be approaching $70/barrel again
 

JLM

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Whatever happened to the old saying "he who pays the piper calls the tune"? AS a taxpayer doing some of the baling I would insist on the following- 1. Absolutely no further Union involvement and 2. I be part of a committee that sets the pay scale from the head honcho right down to the guy who sweeps the floor. Otherwise they get none of my money zilch, nada, bugger all.
 

Tyr

Council Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Whatever happened to the old saying "he who pays the piper calls the tune"? AS a taxpayer doing some of the baling I would insist on the following- 1. Absolutely no further Union involvement and 2. I be part of a committee that sets the pay scale from the head honcho right down to the guy who sweeps the floor. Otherwise they get none of my money zilch, nada, bugger all.

Good idea.... and good luck.

Absolutely no further Union involvement

That's a given. The auto industry won't survive with it's current union contract

I be part of a committee that sets the pay scale from the head honcho right down to the guy who sweeps the floor. Otherwise they get none of my money zilch, nada, bugger all

Good luck. I believe in a sliding scale based on profit and loss. No profit? The head honcho gets nothing