why is Canada growing its own extremists?

[Mogz]

RE: why is Canada growing

I'm just going to touch on ONE thing, as this post is chalk full of repetitive issues that, even though they've been addressed, people still keep bringing up:

Before harper, we were on a peacekeeping mission, which i still didnt support at all, and since harper is in power, we are on offensive mission, quite different, which i really strongly d'ont support.

Do you honestly believe that aeon? Because if so, you're a moron. In 2002 the Battle of Shah-e-Kot took place in Afghanistan. The main assault forces consisted of the U.S. 10th Mountain Division and the 3rd Battalion Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, and special forces from several nations. For over a week the coalition utterly hammered the Taliban and Al-qaeda. Does that sound like peacekeeping aeon? No? Because it wasn't, and still isn't. We invaded Afghanistan alongside the U.S. and we've been on a combat footing ever since. I've addressed this SEVERAL times on these forums, and for some reason, you, among others, can't seem to remember it more than a few weeks. Furthermore, you deem that Harper put us on a combat footing? Lets say for a moment that everything before Operation Archer (our deployment to Kandahar in February 2006) was peacekeeping, and that truely for the first time since 2001 we went to a War footing. Lets assume that for a moment ok? It still wouldn't be Harpers fault, the Liberal Government planned, authorized, and deployed on Operation Archer. When was the 2006 election aeon? I'll tell you, January 23, 2006. On December 30th, 2005, members of the TAV (theatre activation team) left Edmonton for Kandahar to coordinate the transfer of Canadian personel from Kabul to Kandahar Air Field. This was before the election that resulted in Harper even getting in to power, therefore this was all done under the Liberals. Hell, even after he was elected, Harper wasn't sworn in until February 6th. Chalks 1 and 2 for the Roto 01-06 to Kandahar left on February 2nd and 5th, so we've already started to deploy Forces before he'd even been sworn in as this Nations leader.

The Liberals planned and executed every aspect of the WAR in Afghanistan aeon. Right from Task Force Rakkasan in 2001 up to Operation Archer in 2006, the Liberals had a hand in it all. You are the epitome of how misguided Canadian society is on this whole Operation. Couple that with the fact that you look to blame the Conservative Government for EVERYTHING and that makes you a fool. Do me a favour and answer this for me aeon. Do you honestly believe the Conservative Government, even after everything I just wrote, gave the go ahead for Operation Archer?

 

[vulpine]

i really don't think there is any need for anyone to be calling anyone else a moron or fool

 

[Mogz]

Calling a spade a spade vulpine. The guy obviously has no concept of our mission overseas, and then turns around and casts blame on a Governing body that hasn't even been in office for 6 months, while the WAR has been ongoing since 2001. It's this type of short-sightedness that plauges the Canadian people. I myself, having served in the region, currently having friends over there with the Multinational Brigade and Provincial Reconstruction Team, and having known memebers killed and/or wounded (MCpl Paul Franklin and Cpl Randy Payne), I utterly despise individuals who either through their own ignorance or way of sheer nefariousness babble on about the mission with blatanty misinformation. Is there a need for me to call him a fool and a moron? No, there's no need. However if by doing so I highlight the fact he's utterly out to lunch, so be it. If the worst thing a person is called is either a fool or a moron, they'll survive.

P.S. aeon i'm waiting on an answer.

 

[aeon]

Re: RE: why is Canada growing

I'm just going to touch on ONE thing, as this post is chalk full of repetitive issues that, even though they've been addressed, people still keep bringing up:


Do you honestly believe that aeon? Because if so, you're a moron.

In the second page of this thread, i said i was wrong, so instead of making conclusion, at least make the effort to read the entire thread.However, even though if we were on a peacekeeping mission or offensive one, i just dont support it, cause i don t believe those stupid story.

In 2002 the Battle of Shah-e-Kot took place in Afghanistan. The main assault forces consisted of the U.S. 10th Mountain Division and the 3rd Battalion Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, and special forces from several nations. For over a week the coalition utterly hammered the Taliban and Al-qaeda. Does that sound like peacekeeping aeon? No? Because it wasn't, and still isn't. We invaded Afghanistan alongside the U.S. and we've been on a combat footing ever since. I've addressed this SEVERAL times on these forums, and for some reason, you, among others, can't seem to remember it more than a few weeks. Furthermore, you deem that Harper put us on a combat footing? Lets say for a moment that everything before Operation Archer (our deployment to Kandahar in February 2006) was peacekeeping, and that truely for the first time since 2001 we went to a War footing. Lets assume that for a moment ok? It still wouldn't be Harpers fault, the Liberal Government planned, authorized, and deployed on Operation Archer. When was the 2006 election aeon? I'll tell you, January 23, 2006. On December 30th, 2005, members of the TAV (theatre activation team) left Edmonton for Kandahar to coordinate the transfer of Canadian personel from Kabul to Kandahar Air Field. This was before the election that resulted in Harper even getting in to power, therefore this was all done under the Liberals. Hell, even after he was elected, Harper wasn't sworn in until February 6th. Chalks 1 and 2 for the Roto 01-06 to Kandahar left on February 2nd and 5th, so we've already started to deploy Forces before he'd even been sworn in as this Nations leader.

The Liberals planned and executed every aspect of the WAR in Afghanistan aeon. Right from Task Force Rakkasan in 2001 up to Operation Archer in 2006, the Liberals had a hand in it all. You are the epitome of how misguided Canadian society is on this whole Operation. Couple that with the fact that you look to blame the Conservative Government for EVERYTHING and that makes you a fool. Do me a favour and answer this for me aeon. Do you honestly believe the Conservative Government, even after everything I just wrote, gave the go ahead for Operation Archer?

Ok you seem to think i am a liberal supporter, man you are wrong all the way, i hated them and i still hate them, paul martin was and is an idiot , not as the conservatives though, but still they are reckless arrogant moron,but still not at the same level as the harper government.

However if i had only the choice beetween conservatives and liberals, i would choose liberal, only because they are not ignorant and arrogant war mongerers, and liberals are smart enough to not states, stupidity like co2 isnt a pollutant something that the harper government does and says.

 

[Mogz]

I never once said you were a Liberal supporter, in fact no where in there do I take a stance on your political affliation. I was pointing out, for all to see, that you claimed Harper started the War, when in reality, he wasn't even in office for ANY of it. So i'll ask again, do you honestly think Prime Minister Harper started Canada's involvment in Afghanistan?

 

[aeon]

Re: RE: why is Canada growing its own extremists?

I never once said you were a Liberal supporter, in fact no where in there do I take a stance on your political affliation. I was pointing out, for all to see, that you claimed Harper started the War, when in reality, he wasn't even in office for ANY of it. So i'll ask again, do you honestly think Prime Minister Harper started Canada's involvment in Afghanistan?

Ok cool.

Of course not , he didnt started the involvment, but he certainly wont do anything to stop it.

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: why is Canada growing

However if i had only the choice beetween conservatives and liberals, i would choose liberal, only because they are not ignorant and arrogant war mongerers,

But the Liberals sent us into war!!!

and liberals are smart enough to not states, stupidity like co2 isnt a pollutant something that the harper government does and says.

Subject: Carbon dioxide has a bad rap

The wakeup call on climate presented by David Suzuki and Hubert Reeves (Gazette, Oct. 27, "Suzuki, Reeves warn about climate") comes from the heart. As scientists, they should consider the evidence.
First, carbon dioxide (CO2), the greenhouse gas most controlled by the Kyoto accord, is not a pollutant. It is a nutrient essential for life, and a minor greenhouse gas.
Second, evidence has accumulated since Kyoto that the strongest correlation with temperature is solar activity. These are not rogue scientists who discount the human effect, but honest researchers who consider the evidence and conclude that CO2 is not the main climate driver. Kyoto will not change this. It is wrong to perpetuate this state of fear.
Funds allocated to Kyoto - an economic treaty that is more about trading carbon credits than lowering CO2 - would be better spent on the real environmental problems of air pollution, ecosystems recovery and protecting freshwater resources. We can't turn down the CO2 dial like a global thermostat.

Dr. Ian Clark,
Professor,
Department of Earth Sciences
University of Ottawa

http://www.envirotruth.org/expert_letters/

Who is stupid?

 

[FiveParadox]

Re: Extremists in Canada

Jay, you are correct, in that the current mission in the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan was, indeed, on the initiative of the previous Government of Canada. Perhaps aeon is expressing a sentiment of disappointment in that he disagrees with the premise of the mission, and is angered that the present Government of Canada has ordered an extention thereof (or not, I have no idea what goes through that kid's head sometimes).

In terms of extremists in Canada, I'm not worried. We have a Muslim population in Canada, it stands to reason that a percentage of that population, just as is true with a percentage of our Sikh, or Christian, or any other population, is going to be extremist. So long as this percentage is not at any exorbitant number so as to suggest that extremism is an effective medium.

 

[EagleSmack]

Re: RE: why is Canada growing its own extremists?

then we should leave Canada?

No... stand and fight!

Admit as a country that you are now a target. Maybe you already have but I can see that some others are trying to downplay it as not a big deal and one has even said that they were probably making a bomb to use in the states.

Some Canadians need to get their head out of the sand. Canada was targeted. Canadians would have been killed if Canada's security forces didn't catch them.

 

[darkbeaver]

You know it is funny all the little conservatives jump on the boat and say 'ha,' multiculturalism isn't working at this and we have to look at this and that and blah, blah blah, which just means, we want to cut immigration down, or weed out all those people who have a different religion, possibly, or maybe a different coloured, skin or just let in people we can trust.

You know it is funny : all the little socialists when faced with completely logical arguments are reduced to crying "racist" or "bigot" or (their favourite) "fascist".

Perhaps that is because the belief in the religion of true socialism is centred in the heart, not the head.

Logic doesn't appeal to them.

Logic is for cash registers and calculators. Which are you? You're a mistake that stricter immigration rules may have prevented. :lol:

 

[Swifty]

Re: RE: why is Canada growing its own extremists?

National post, should only be considered as part of a tv shows"" Just for laugh"

What other paper would you suggest ?

I want to know the real story not all this bogus garbage coming out of the National Post.

 

[elevennevele]

Re: RE: why is Canada growing its own extremists?

The question people need to ask is that if a war like Iraq and Afghanistan, conducted by the USA was done on another country with a different ethnic makeup, and Canada was involved with our side of things, would we breed radicals in this other ethnic group?

With Iraq and Afghanistan, we further compound it by an association of religion. Something which on a very sensitive level becomes a war on a person’s belief system.

You just have think of the extreme actions that the USA has done on such people. People living within their own countries. They’ve tortured, massacred, leveled villages/cities, reduced their quality of life, security, dignity, stripped them of their own control to genuinely govern independently, etc. People have lost their fathers, their mothers, their children, all on lies by an invading aggressor.

The actions taken on these people have been extreme, and so if there is to be a backlash you can expect that it would be equally extreme.

What we have is a failure of foreign policy and a dangerous association with the USA/Bush with their actions. I am not surprised however that Canadians are somewhat poor in recognizing this.

For instance, when the Iraq war was proposed and then acted upon the USA news was dripping, just dripping with government propaganda BS. Studies were done to see how well Americans understood their own war, the reasons, the facts, the developments, etc. and so many of them failed in just a basic knowledge of their own country’s involvement in the wars. A great many Americans (I've continually read half of Americans) even thought that Saddam had something to do with the 911 attack.

How can you be involved in a ‘war’ and be so wrong as to why?!

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStorie...&storyID=143137&BCCode=GWL&newsdate=6/15/2003

Before the war, half of those polled in a survey said Iraqis were among the 19 hijackers on Sept. 11, 2001.

But such weapons have not been found in Iraq, and were never used. Most of the Sept. 11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. None were Iraqis.

How could so many people be so wrong about life-and-death information that has dominated news coverage for almost two years?

These poll results startled the pollsters who conducted and analyzed the surveys.

"It's a striking finding," said Steve Kull, director of the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland, which asked the weapons questions during a May 14-18 poll of 1,256 respondents.

He added, "Given the intensive news coverage and high levels of public attention, this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance."

That is, having their beliefs conflict with the facts.

Given that Canada is so saturated with American television it doesn’t surprise me the types of opinions I hear over on this side. Opinions that might resemble the mindset of our neighbours.

It seems hard for the average Canadian to imagine the USA as the bad guys because we get all their media which tells us how good they believe themselves to be. I know they've done some good things in the world, but in this case they ARE the bad guys. If the argument is Saddam is a bad guy, the Americans have simply taken his place, and at this point it appears they are doing much more harm to the people.

I also don’t think the average Canadian can imagine, in accurate context, being under the same level of occupation that is being done to the Iraqis. I doubt Canadians would have a complacency under a similar violent occupation of this country.

If the Arabs that are being attacked looked like Swedes, and shared our culture, what the USA has done to these people would be more recognized for what it. A horrendous crime. As a result, the base human traits of anger, hatred, and a longing for revenge have surfaced from all this with people 'who can identify' with the victims of this crime.

Hatred and violence tends to create it’s counterpart.

 

[sanch]

Re: RE: why is Canada growing its own extremists?

National post, should only be considered as part of a tv shows"" Just for laugh"

What other paper would you suggest ?

I want to know the real story not all this bogus garbage coming out of the National Post.

Stewart Bell, who wrote this article, is one of Canada's foremost experts on terrorism. Here are some reviews of his book Cold Terror. I've read the book and the basic argument does not differ from Bruce Bawer's While Europe Slept. Bawer is a liberal. Bell does write for the NP but I do not know his politics. Bell's book obviously is not going to appeal to readers who believe the police belong in jail and terrorists should be allowed to do as they please.

Review
“Every responsible citizen of Canada, the US, the UK and other Western countries should read this book” (Times Higher Educational Supplement, 27 August 2004)

Review
"Cold Terror will shock the conscience of the nation. In terrifying detail, it shows how the world's terrorists have made themselves at home in Canada-and how they have been made welcome by cowardly politicians. This book is not an exposé; it is an urgent call to action."
—David Frum, former White House speechwriter and author of The Right Man: The Surprise Presidency of George W. Bush

"The book may cause the earth to shake in certain political circles—justifiably. An important contribution towards alerting Canadians to the threats and dangers in our very midst."
—Dr. Martin Rudner, Director of the Canadian Centre of Intelligence and Security Studies, Norman Paterson School of International Affairs

"A devastating indictment of Canada's failure to deal seriously with terrorists on our soil."
—Martin Collacott, Canada's former ambassador to Syria and Lebanon, High Commissioner to Sri Lanka and Counter-Terrorism Coordinator

"This is a terrific an d timely book.... The blend of the descriptive past tense and the present tense reportage, not always easy to pull off in a narrative, is seamless."
—George Jonas, author of 13 books, including Vengeance: The True Story of an Israeli Counter-Terrorist Team

"This is THE book for anyone who wants to know why terrorists love Canada. Stewart Bell's carefully researched book takes readers inside the world of international terrorism. With a skillful blend of strong research edgy and on-the-scene reportage, Bell doesn't only tell you why Canada has become the Club Med of terrorism, he shows you how. Cold Terror is an indictment of Canadian government policies and should bring a chill to any Canadian."
—Lee Lamothe, author of The Last Thief and Bloodlines: The Rise and Fall of the Mafia’s Royal Family

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/04...ref=sr_1_1/002-7905923-0368823?_encoding=UTF8

 

[Vicious]

Re: RE: why is Canada growing its own extremists?

The question people need to ask is that if a war like Iraq and Afghanistan, conducted by the USA was done on another country with a different ethnic makeup, and Canada was involved with our side of things, would we breed radicals in this other ethnic group?

In the former Yugoslavia, Canada and the US came to the aid of the muslim minority that was being cleansed by the serbs. Helping the muslims doesn't seem to have won us any points. However I haven't heard of any Serbian-Canadian terror cells.

Germany and Japan were soundly thumped and nuked. How come they don't hate us?

With Iraq and Afghanistan, we further compound it by an association of religion. Something which on a very sensitive level becomes a war on a person’s belief system.

You just have think of the extreme actions that the USA has done on such people. People living within their own countries. They’ve tortured, massacred, leveled villages/cities, reduced their quality of life, security, dignity, stripped them of their own control to genuinely govern independently, etc. People have lost their fathers, their mothers, their children, all on lies by an invading aggressor.

The actions taken on these people have been extreme, and so if there is to be a backlash you can expect that it would be equally extreme.

I agree religion thrown into the mix doesn't help. However don't forget that one of the extreme actions that Canada and the US and lots of other countries do is welcome people from all corners of the earth into our countries. And in most of the situations I can think of - Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Somolia, - it was internal strife that caused the torture, massacre, etc etc.

What we have is a failure of foreign policy and a dangerous association with the USA/Bush with their actions. I am not surprised however that Canadians are somewhat poor in recognizing this.

For instance, when the Iraq war was proposed and then acted upon the USA news was dripping, just dripping with government propaganda BS. Studies were done to see how well Americans understood their own war, the reasons, the facts, the developments, etc. and so many of them failed in just a basic knowledge of their own country’s involvement in the wars. A great many Americans (I've continually read half of Americans) even thought that Saddam had something to do with the 911 attack.

How can you be involved in a ‘war’ and be so wrong as to why?!

I''m never surprised at how little the average person knows about anything. Maybe you should take a step back and think if their are elements of our foreign policy, or American foreign policy that you fail to recognize

Given that Canada is so saturated with American television it doesn’t surprise me the types of opinions I hear over on this side. Opinions that might resemble the mindset of our neighbours.

It seems hard for the average Canadian to imagine the USA as the bad guys because we get all their media which tells us how good they believe themselves to be. I know they've done some good things in the world, but in this case they ARE the bad guys. If the argument is Saddam is a bad guy, the Americans have simply taken his place, and at this point it appears they are doing much more harm to the people.

Let me understand this. US vs Taliban. You think the US is the bad guys. US vs. Saddam. You think the US is the bad guys. And it's because of American television. Don't you watch Canadian television?

I also don’t think the average Canadian can imagine, in accurate context, being under the same level of occupation that is being done to the Iraqis. I doubt Canadians would have a complacency under a similar violent occupation of this country.

Given that alot of canadians come from other parts of the world I think more and more canadians know exactly what it's like to live in a war zone.

If the Arabs that are being attacked looked like Swedes, and shared our culture, what the USA has done to these people would be more recognized for what it. A horrendous crime. As a result, the base human traits of anger, hatred, and a longing for revenge have surfaced from all this with people 'who can identify' with the victims of this crime.

I think Serbs closely resemble europeans of various type (what with them being in Europe - but I hope you get the message).

Hatred and violence tends to create it’s counterpart.

Forgive me, but from your statements above (about the US being bad guys) it appears you may have a hatred for our southern neighbours. I hope I'm wrong. But it does point out what is becoming a Canadian truth - to be politically correct you are not allowed to hate anyone, well, just the Americans.

 

[Colpy]

You know it is funny all the little conservatives jump on the boat and say 'ha,' multiculturalism isn't working at this and we have to look at this and that and blah, blah blah, which just means, we want to cut immigration down, or weed out all those people who have a different religion, possibly, or maybe a different coloured, skin or just let in people we can trust.

You know it is funny : all the little socialists when faced with completely logical arguments are reduced to crying "racist" or "bigot" or (their favourite) "fascist".

Perhaps that is because the belief in the religion of true socialism is centred in the heart, not the head.

Logic doesn't appeal to them.

Logic is for cash registers and calculators. Which are you? You're a mistake that stricter immigration rules may have prevented. :lol:

I doubt stricter immigration laws would have kept me out.......trhe ancester that shares my name came here in 1782. BTW, he came here after fighting the Americans in the American Revolution.

 

[vulpine]

yeah that is really just unnessessary personal mockery, which i'm seeing a lot of on these forums. It doesn't add anything to the discussion and you can make your point without it

here's a quick little listen for ya instead of:

"you're a moron"

why not try : "in my opinion you are misunderstanding the facts"

 

[annabattler]

The majority of those charged were young men.The majority of the young men had been good students(by all accounts)...several of them underwent a "change", after attending the mosque where the 'caretaker" spouted very radical ideas.
One commentator suggested that there is a "disconnect" between young Muslims and their families...often,the parents have a hard time giving up their cultural ties to the homeland, often the parents don't have a firm grasp on our languages, often the parents are not computer literate...and so they aren't aware of what their adolescents are involved in, what they're learning at the mosque.
Add to that the incredible energy of youth, a desire to be involved in a cause.
I don't think Al Queda is involved in this....I suspect it's a group of youth needing a "cause",involved with others needing a "cause".
At any rate,the majority are citizens of our country...and disconnected from what being a citizen means. It's serious business.
A large number of people in the Muslim community seem to be aware of those "preachers" in the mosques who spout extreme radicalism. While they might need to clean up their own houses of worship, we need to look at ways to be more inclusive of young people of all ethnicities.

 

[darkbeaver]

yeah that is really just unnessessary personal mockery, which i'm seeing a lot of on these forums. It doesn't add anything to the discussion and you can make your point without it

here's a quick little listen for ya instead of:

"you're a moron"

why not try : "in my opinion you are misunderstanding the facts"

In my opinion you are misunderstanding the facts,moron. :lol:

 

[EagleSmack]

yeah that is really just unnessessary personal mockery, which i'm seeing a lot of on these forums. It doesn't add anything to the discussion and you can make your point without it

here's a quick little listen for ya instead of:

"you're a moron"

why not try : "in my opinion you are misunderstanding the facts"

Vulpine... name calling is SOP for these folks. They have no real arguments so they revert to name calling.

Keep up the good work.

 

[DurkaDurka]

yeah that is really just unnessessary personal mockery, which i'm seeing a lot of on these forums. It doesn't add anything to the discussion and you can make your point without it

here's a quick little listen for ya instead of:

"you're a moron"

why not try : "in my opinion you are misunderstanding the facts"

In my opinion you are misunderstanding the facts,moron. :lol: