When Cynicism Meets Fanaticism

#juan

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From V.D.H's article
Third, the opposition of the United Nations to the invasion lacks any moral significance, given the postwar revelations that the $50 billion Oil-for-Food scandal not only led to thousands of starved Iraqi civilians, but also enriched both Saddam’s family and U.N. insiders themselves.

This is really interesting since the "Oil for Food Scandal" was run just about entirely by the U.S. Navy who ignored UN warnings about possible corruption about seventy times. The U.S. Navy provided a couple hundred ships. Where do you think the oil went?
 

Curiosity

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JomZ said:
I’ll engage you WC, not based on my own beliefs but in the spirit of truth seeking. I am one of those people that are relatively indifferent to the war due to the fact that I am looking at it from a perspective that doesn’t even come close to the reality that what goes on in the politics and on the ground.

The one thing I find funny about this document is the lack of documentation and sitation of sources for these proofs. Any respected author will know to site his sources

Thank you JomZ

I'll try to answer some of your remarks and leave items I cannot answer at all.... The author Hanson needs no citation in his articles and essays for he generally has cited what he writes in his books - and they are fully cited and researched....and as a member of the Hoover Institute is privy to material we earthlings probably don't receive. Whether one agrees with him is entirely personal. If one wishes to trust what he writes as having veracity (or some veracity) - that is also personal, but I would state he is putting out the thoughts with more care and attention than the average MSM news reader/writer (Rather included).


1. Saddam was never connected to al Qaeda, the perpetrators of 9/11.

Just because the administration says these things, does not make them fact. Yes, they were connections between the two groups, but it’s a matter of degree and level of collaboration. There are proponents that state that Saddam and Al-Queda were at odds due to ideological reasons. Many within Al-Queda viewed Saddam’s Iraq as too secular and preferred a more Islamic rule closely aligned with the Taliban Style. Cooperation was seen as relatively impossible, and now Al-Queda acts independently from or loosely aligned with former Saddam loyalists.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47812-2004Jun16.html

]2. There was no real threat of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction.

You argue with yourself on this point between 1 and 2. Nobody is taking the "Administrations word as fact". But you then continue writing about the collaboration between AlQaeda and Hussein. Which is it?

Hussein had plenty of time to relocate the supposed weaponry with the assistance of Syria - some of which have been located already.


3. The United Nations and our allies were justifiably opposed on principle to the invasion.

These two seem somewhat linked in lieu of the recent secret briefing record being released about a meeting between Bush and Blair about the realities of their quest for solid proof about Iraq. Showing that the main heads of the Coalition were already decided on this and were just making sure they covered all the legal areas.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1605157.htm

Anything the United Nations opposed is fine with me to go the opposite route. They were having a great time with their Oil for Food scam at the expense of the Iraqi people - why should they hurry to disrupt such a lovely money making operation?

Whether Bush and Blair met in secret or in public is moot.
Why should they not meet as coalition partners? Very few were offering to commit.


4. A small cabal of neoconservative (and mostly Jewish) intellectuals bullied the administration into a war that served Israel’s interest more than our own.

I will agree that this is an extreme view backed by many conspiracy theories. Its validity will never come too light until this becomes a history lesson. Although, I’ll bet the Israeli’s are pleased that a major financier of the Palestinian extremists is gone.

Yet here is some food for thought:
http://www2.jsonline.com/news/gen/apr03/131523.asp
For I am not well versed on this topic and will read up on this some more.
Link didn't work here JomZ.... WC

When I read words like: "A small cabal of neo-conservative (and mostly Jewish)...... I shutter down. No thanks. Not going there.

5. Saddam could not be easily deposed, or at least he could not be successfully replaced with a democratic government.

I like Chris Rock’s saying on this one. To paraphrase “Iraq was suppose to be the greatest threat to the U.S. then how come it only took three weeks to take over the whole place. Hell you couldn’t take over Baltimore in three weeks.”

Fifth, after the three-week victory of April 2003, we have now forgotten the earlier prognostications of millions of refugees, oil wells afire, and thousands of dead that were to follow in Iraq. Twenty-three hundred American fatalities are grievous losses, but must be weighed against three successful elections, and the real chance that such sacrifice might result in the first true Arab democracy emerging in Iraq, with ramifications beyond the Middle East for generations to come. Currently, tens of thousands of Iraqis are the only Arabs in the world who daily risk their lives to fight al Qaeda terrorists — something that just may be in America’s interest.

Successful elections do not hold that the government will succeed, it only means that there are indications of democratic tendencies within its people, (which I am all for). The real test will be the maintaining of this government, its constitution, and the enforcement of law and restoration of order. This also must be strengthened by its independence from American backing, especially on the last point. That will take time, its one of those wait and see things. This will be the testament to the true cost of this war.

All righty then - we are supposed to take Chris Rock's word for it? Of course successful elections are not the beginning of the end - but where would you suggest the people of Iraq start? Immediately dividing into their three historical animous groups and begin fighting with each other? C'mon give them a chance. Way too limiting a statement this one....my god you want instant democracy? Isn't gonna happen!! There will be more oil fires set, lives lost, families destroyed and hell will exist in Iraq for years....

The U.S. and the coalition get over there and immediately everyone is hollering for them to come home - body count - days of war count - generals being fired count - insurgents bombs count and so our news drones on and one in depressing reality. Take another Zoloft folks! That's what bloody war is!


6. The architects of this war and the subsequent occupation are mostly inept (“dangerously incompetent”) — and are exposed daily as clueless by a professional cadre of disinterested journalists.

I mean come on; we are talking about politicians and reporters. One talks a lot of B.S. the other reports a lot of B.S. They are mutually dependent on the other’s fowl ups in order to succeed. We can all agree that a lot of mistakes were made on both sides.

Stop picking on Dan Rather, the guy apologized and resigned stop kicking a man when he’s down. Ahem I think Dan "retired" under pressure.

It is the work of the MSM to create interest. Bad news creates interest. With so many outlets competing for attention, do you think happy day stories are going to get the ratings? Do you understand media politics at all? Besides which - are we going to let the MSM dictate what our government does? No way.

There isn't much to like about the administration any more but he doesn't suck up to the MSM like Clinton did....filling everyone full of fairytales while ignoring the pot boiling over with terrorist acts against U.S. interests. Check the lists they are all over the place.Clinton did a great job doing nothing! What's to get angry over??? Nothing????


7. In realist terms, the benefits to be gained from the war will never justify the costs incurred.

Again, it is a wait and see kind of thing. America wasn’t born in decade, its took centuries of a lot of turmoil and conflict both physical and political for it to come to its prominence. Plus those natives were in the way.

Right - put a dollar value on the birth of a nation. That's cool!
Alternatively - you think Hussein should have been allowed to continue making billions off the backs of his people? While the U.N. created memos for good Public Relations? The cost of war is never justified....even for one dollar! But we continue to have them don't we?


8. We cannot win.

History will be the judge of this. It may take centuries to see the actual ramifications of these actions. Here is something written about Vietnam that is used as a comparison to America’s foreign policy in occupation.

As "Cincinnatus," a U.S. officer who wrote an anonymous history of the disintegration of American forces in Vietnam, put it: "The
United States Army faced a guerrilla war in Vietnam, a small
Southeast Asian country of some 65,000 square miles with a
population of about 16 million people. That nation fought to a
standstill the United States of America, with over 200 million
citizens--one of the largest nations on earth and, surely, one of
the most powerful."
"America's fighting men won every major battle, including such
crucial conflicts as Ap Bia...in the Au Shau Valley, Khe Sanh and
Tet 1968, yet they lost the war."
http://www3.iath.virginia.edu/lists_archive/sixties-l/4178.html

It seems to me the sticking point in this debate is how America got there, and not actually what is going on there. I concede that my knowledge is limited, but who mind you is not since all we do is discuss third of fourth hand information that comes our way.

This isn't VietNam as much as everyone would like to use the comparison. It has nothing to do with VietNam, never did and never will. VietNam was yet another U.N. sanctioned military action which the U.S. was expected to act upon.

I find it sad in retrospect we didn't have the internet during the VietNam conflict with the military conversing with the public on a daily basis from all points in that country.Thank you for the time spent here. One of your links didn't open for me.... but that's ok.

I hope others will have respond to your thoughts. Mine are only one opinion ... Mine however are derived from all the Milblogs out there...from the people making imprints in the sand: sweating... freezing... weeping... hurting, ...bleeding....carrying the dead....patching up the burns....vomiting in fear.... trying to sleep.....writing on their computers....and wishing they were home. Can't get much more real than that!
 

Curiosity

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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132682,00.html

Juan - Google has mostly books now...but Fox still keeps their sites updated...

Possible Saddam-Al Qaeda Link Seen in U.N. Oil-for-Food Program
Monday, September 20, 2004
By Claudia Rosett and George Russell

LUGANO, Switzerland — Did Saddam Hussein use any of his ill-gotten billions filched from the United Nations Oil-for-Food program to help fund Al Qaeda?

Investigations have shown that the former Iraqi dictator grafted and smuggled more than $10 billion from the program that for seven years prior to Saddam's overthrow was meant to bring humanitarian aid to ordinary Iraqis. And the Sept. 11 Commission has shown a tracery of contacts between Saddam and Al Qaeda (search) that continued after billions of Oil-for-Food dollars began pouring into Saddam's coffers and Usama bin Laden (search) declared his infamous war on the U.S.

Now, buried in some of the United Nation's own confidential documents, clues can be seen that underscore the possibility of just such a Saddam-Al Qaeda link — clues leading to a locked door in this Swiss lakeside resort. (To review a series of documents, audits and other stories related to Oil-for-Food, click here.)

(continued)
 

FiveParadox

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:!: Notice
Our Administrators and Moderators have made the request that we (the membership) cease posting entire articles here on Canadian Content. It makes the forum cleaner and more efficient if members quote a passage from the article they wish to reference, then provide a link to the entire version for members to read if they so wish.
 

Curiosity

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http://www.oilforfoodfacts.org/smuggling.aspx

Juan

I was shocked when you said the U.S. Navy was smuggling so went on a search for more information as it was news to me.... there are a few articles from the Vollker investigation and the link above mentions the Multinational Interception Force - "led by the 5th Fleet of the U.S. Navy"....acting on U.N. orders.... in 1990 to carry out the sanctions of oil shipments placed on Iraq. Is that what you are reading into the "smuggling oil" statement???

I find it odd that the U.S. was again doing another job for the U.N. and are now accused of being part in Hussein's operation.

Here is the article...
Hussein Received Billions of Dollars More In Illicit Money Through Illegal Trades Than The Oil-For-Food Program
Only recently have investigations begun to focus on the largest source of illicit revenue for Saddam Hussein - illegal oil trading with Iraq's neighbors. While much more attention has been placed on reports of Saddam Hussein's ability to manipulate the Oil-for-Food Program (OFFP), all of the investigative sources related to the Oil-for-Food Program agree that oil smuggling was a much greater source of illicit income for the Iraqi Government during the sanctions than OFFP.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> continued through to this pertinent statement

The task of policing oil smuggling fell to the Multinational Interception Force (MIF), led by the Fifth Fleet of the U.S. Navy. The coalition making up MIF was initiated following the inception of the sanctions in 1990. The objective remained the same throughout its existence - to halt violations of United Nations Security Council Resolutions 661 and 665.

As the investigations into Iraq's acquisition of illicit revenue during the sanctions continues, it is important to be clear that illegal oil smuggling, not the Oil-for-Food Program, was Saddam Hussein's primary source of illicit funds.
 

Curiosity

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Five

Yes I read that notice when I first joined but so many other people were posting full articles....I thought perhaps it had become defunct.

Done
 

FiveParadox

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I know, Wednesday's Child, I had hoped that certain people would clue in on their own to cease posting entire articles; however, I don't think one could consider my notice to be a "warning", hehe. I have neither the administrative nor the moderating authority to force anyone to change the way they post. I was only bringing notice to a request therefrom.

However, I thought that perhaps this rule considered further consideration by the membership, considering the fact that yesterday (or perhaps the day before), I had seen Cosmo delete two posts because of posting an entire article.
 

#juan

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comment | posted November 18, 2004 (December 6, 2004 issue)
UN Oil for Food 'Scandal'

Joy Gordon

The CIA's Duelfer report may have confirmed the gross falsity of the WMD claims invoked by the Bush Administration to justify its war against Iraq, but it has also triggered a feeding frenzy in the growing attacks against the United Nations. In January the Iraqi newspaper Al Mada published a list of people and organizations, including UN personnel, who supposedly received vouchers from the Iraqi government to purchase oil. In April the General Accounting Office (since renamed the Government Accountability Office) published a report claiming that the Oil for Food (OFF) program had been rife with corruption and that through smuggling and kickbacks, Saddam Hussein had managed to acquire more than $10 billion in illicit funds. A series of Congressional investigations followed, featuring conservative witnesses who pilloried the UN for incompetence, corruption and general unfitness. In the latest hearings chaired by Republican Norm Coleman, the committee staff claimed that Saddam's access to illicit funds totalled over $21 billion--twice the sum claimed by the CIA--and that the money went to terrorists around the world, not to mention (rather astonishingly) the post-Saddam insurgency.

If it is true that Benon Sevan, former head of the OFF program, accepted illicit oil vouchers, then that may well constitute fraud (although the evidence cited against him so far has been tenuous). But it would also have been in direct violation of clear UN policies--hardly an indicator of institutional corruption.

Rarely mentioned, either at the hearings or in the press coverage, was the fundamental distinction between the policies established by the Secretariat and the UN agencies and those that result from decisions of particular member states within the highly politicized Security Council. For example, the CIA report says that the bulk of the illicit transactions were "government to government agreements" between Iraq and a few other countries, for trade outside the OFF program. According to the report, they resulted in income to Iraq of $7.5 billion.

CONTINUED BELOW
The largest of these arrangements was with Jordan--revenue from which totaled about $4.5 billion. This trade arrangement was the single largest source of Iraqi income outside the OFF program. From 1990 until the OFF program began in late 1996, "Jordan was the key to Iraq's financial survival," according to the report. Why didn't "the UN" do something about it? Because the Security Council--where the United States was by far the single most influential member--decided in May 1991 that no action would be taken to interfere in Iraq's trade with Jordan, America's closest ally in the Arab world.

Likewise, the maritime smuggling that took place under the nose of "the UN" in fact took place under the nose of something called the Multinational Interception Force, a group of member nations that responded to the general invitation of the Security Council for nations to interdict Iraqi smuggling. The "UN" Multinational Interception Force turns out to have consisted almost entirely of the US Navy. The commander of the MIF was at every point, from 1991 to 2003, a rear admiral or vice admiral from the US Fifth Fleet. The United States contributed the overwhelming majority of ships--hundreds in fact. Britain provided the deputy commander and some naval forces and other countries contributed a few ships. The UN itself provided no forces or commanders. "The UN" failure to interdict Saddam's tankers of illicit oil turns out, in nearly every regard, to have been a US naval operation.


The much-vaunted kickbacks on import contracts also turn out to be not quite as advertised. Saddam, the claim goes, inflated the price of import contracts by 5 to 10 percent, then received the difference in cash from the contractors. Thousands of contracts, stretching over years, were involved; how could the UN have been so incompetent as not to notice? In fact, prices inflated by only 5 or 10 percent were difficult to detect precisely because the amounts were so small and often within the normal range of market prices. But when pricing irregularities were large enough that they might have indicated kickbacks, the UN staff did notice. On more than seventy occasions, the staff brought these to the attention of the 661 Committee, the Security Council body charged with implementing the sanctions. On no occasion did the United States block or delay the contracts to prevent the kickbacks from occurring. Although the United States, citing security concerns, blocked billions of dollars of humanitarian contracts--$5 billion were on hold as of July 2002--it never took action to stop kickbacks, even when they were obvious and well documented.

Far from giving Saddam a free hand, the OFF program involved extensive monitoring and oversight. The government of Iraq first had to submit a list of every single item it hoped to purchase in the coming six months, and the UN staff had to approve the list. Once Iraq had signed a contract with a vendor, the contract was circulated to UNSCOM (later UNMOVIC), to see if there was anything that could be used for military purposes. Every member of the Security Council had the opportunity to review every contract, and each member could block or delay any contract for imports. Every member of the Security Council also had to approve every contract for the sale of oil. If there was cash paid under the table, it did not happen for lack of oversight. It happened despite the most elaborate monitoring system imaginable. And if the members of the Security Council--including the United States--failed to do their job, that is not the fault of Kofi Annan.

The Duelfer report, along with eight sets of Congressional hearings, vitriolic press coverage and considerable ranting by the right, suggest an antipathy toward the UN that goes well beyond election-season maneuvering. The consequences of this scandal will be considerable. We witnessed the ill-fated decision to invade Iraq without Security Council authorization; we might recall that the Security Council would not grant the American demand to authorize an invasion, precisely because the United States was unable to provide any compelling evidence that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. If the world's most respected institution of international governance is rendered impotent by accusations as distorted and exaggerated as these, we should all fear the consequences.
 

Curiosity

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Juan

I saw that article by Joy Gordon - but an Iraqi Newspaper giving out the basic information?

Do you really believe the U.S. Navy was smuggling oil at the expense of the Iraq people?

I wish hubby was around to respond - he was there in 1990.
 

Curiosity

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Toro

My Obsessive side got the best of me today...had to spend the past half hour wiping out long threads...

How is the new set of wheels doing? Girls hanging around at the stop signs???? heh