I'm really not much in the mood to debate tonight, but how is
a matter of "opinion", pastafarian?
a matter of "opinion", pastafarian?
USA distancing itself from Canada
- Thread starter I think not
- Start date
sanch said:
Thank you Sanch for finding that speech
I believe parts of it have been edited for content, but it is like hen's teeth to find on the internet.
I hope this discussion can continue without paying any more homage to this person whether one gets dramatic over her or not...she caused a great deal of hurt and animosity....
I agree, the evidence of Republican electoral fraud in Florida in 2000 is pretty well overwhelming, but until people want to get to the bottom of it enough to allow a reasoned debate on the matter-- which will of course be "never"-- it remains a matter of opinion.
As for this:
Until those who were "hurt" grow up and learn a little history, tough beans!
pastafarian said:
There is no overwhelming "evidence" of fraud, neither in 2000 nor 2004. Have any "evidence" you can present? Or simply opinion columns?
I haven't looked into 2004, because Americans didn't care that Gore won in 2000, so if they leave it to Bill O. et al. to defend their right to no democracy so be it. I don't want to get into all the evidence now, there's too much. I'll summarize some of it tomorrow, but seeing as you've already made up your mind, it'll probably be a waste of time... it wasn't on Fox.
If that makes it inadmissible let me know from the start
You won't be wasting your time, I seek the truth, not to satisfy my ego. I'll wait for this evidence tomorrow. And do me a favor and don't presume your stereotypical perceptions of Americans apply to everyone. Thank you.
It´s a matter of decorum and not challenging an idealized view of self no matter how inaccurate and idiotic you think it is when you are conversing with friends or neighbours. Canada also has many skeletons and an ugly colonial past, a history of genocide that Thobani has spoken about as well. Do people in Canada really want to hear about this history or even about the current plight of aboriginals,’’ a plight which is described in UN documents as comparable to the horrors in any third world country? Do Canadians want to hear the life expectancy on some reserves in northwest Ontario is a little more than 30 years? Do Canadians want to hear that Toronto is less a pluralistic city and a shining example of multiculturalism than it is a fragmented hodgepodge of ethnic ghettos which are totally separated from the Canadian mainstream? If you invited a guest to dinner who incessantly and loudly pointed out all of the above you might be inclined not to want to invite that guest back.
That is the significance of this post 9/11 diatribe that lists all the various injustices and atrocities that might have justified flying the planes into the towers. So the inference that it was deserving is indirect but it is there. And appearances are everything. It was a time of solemnity and there were incredible displays of compassion and solidarity from around the world. And then you have this event 3 weeks later with this highly critical invective and cabinet members onstage and other politicians and a room full of government functionaries applauding it with a standing ovation. It was just bad form.
RE: USA distancing itself
we should have normal relations with the States...remember....Bush is DEFINATELY OUT in 2008 because of two term elections. How Canada will proceed in its relations with future leaders depends on the tone they set now.
It's absolute crap that to be "Canadian" you are obliged to bash anyone who isn't. I am not saying that on certain issues, we shouldn't hold our ground. But you do nothing for your countries best interests to alientate your largest trading partner.
On the other hand, Canada needs to really work to strenghten relations with other countries and not be SO reliant on the US for our future prosperity. There are so many trade opportunities around the world that are untapped and not being explored. Off the top of my head, i would say South America, the Middle East and Africa would be a great place to invest.
we should have normal relations with the States...remember....Bush is DEFINATELY OUT in 2008 because of two term elections. How Canada will proceed in its relations with future leaders depends on the tone they set now.
It's absolute crap that to be "Canadian" you are obliged to bash anyone who isn't. I am not saying that on certain issues, we shouldn't hold our ground. But you do nothing for your countries best interests to alientate your largest trading partner.
On the other hand, Canada needs to really work to strenghten relations with other countries and not be SO reliant on the US for our future prosperity. There are so many trade opportunities around the world that are untapped and not being explored. Off the top of my head, i would say South America, the Middle East and Africa would be a great place to invest.
Canada — United States Relations
I would agree, Semperfi_dani.
We must ensure that in terms of our trade in Canada, that we are searching other avenues, in order to diversify our imports and exports; while the United States and Canada are friends, if anything were to happen to either one of us, in terms of impacting our ability to trade, we should have diverse trading policies so as to prevent such a thing from crippling one, or both, nations.
Our relationship, notwithstanding trade, is a good one, in my opinion. We must acknowledge that there are going to be the occasional disagreements, as both nations head in their own direction, and evolve into their own unique identities. We mustn't allow these disagreements to degrade our relationship as a whole, however.
In a life-or-death situation, I would assert that Canada would be there for the United States, and the United States for Canada. I would assert that the relationship between the two nations can be "renewed" once this second term of His Excellency the Honourable George Bush¹, President of the United States, has expired; perhaps it is time for new leadership in both nations (not necessarily parties, though) in order to "reconnect."
:?: Footnote
¹ In Canada, the President of the United States is formally styled as such.
I would agree, Semperfi_dani.
We must ensure that in terms of our trade in Canada, that we are searching other avenues, in order to diversify our imports and exports; while the United States and Canada are friends, if anything were to happen to either one of us, in terms of impacting our ability to trade, we should have diverse trading policies so as to prevent such a thing from crippling one, or both, nations.
Our relationship, notwithstanding trade, is a good one, in my opinion. We must acknowledge that there are going to be the occasional disagreements, as both nations head in their own direction, and evolve into their own unique identities. We mustn't allow these disagreements to degrade our relationship as a whole, however.
In a life-or-death situation, I would assert that Canada would be there for the United States, and the United States for Canada. I would assert that the relationship between the two nations can be "renewed" once this second term of His Excellency the Honourable George Bush¹, President of the United States, has expired; perhaps it is time for new leadership in both nations (not necessarily parties, though) in order to "reconnect."
:?: Footnote
¹ In Canada, the President of the United States is formally styled as such.
How many times do we have to bring up the issue that politicians cannot drive markets. No politician anywhere can tell companies where in the world they will be competitive, they can only lay the ground work: trade agreements.
RE: USA distancing itself
Ah..but policy decisions in any other aspect of the canadian landscape do affect the markets...it affects the perception of investors if they want to invest in Canada or not, in certain companies, in foreign companies. Damn right polices make a difference..otherwise, why would analysts watch the news?
If for example conservative win a majority...that there is a strong, likely chance for bank mergers. Based purely on some policy statement some conservative made years ago. So yah..it makes a difference
Ah..but policy decisions in any other aspect of the canadian landscape do affect the markets...it affects the perception of investors if they want to invest in Canada or not, in certain companies, in foreign companies. Damn right polices make a difference..otherwise, why would analysts watch the news?
If for example conservative win a majority...that there is a strong, likely chance for bank mergers. Based purely on some policy statement some conservative made years ago. So yah..it makes a difference
Good, ITN. I assumed the worst because of your statement that there is no evidence (in quotes) of foul play, which I took to indicate that you KNEW there was no evidence. I don't expect to convince you that Bush did steal the election, only that there is ample evidence that at least his first-term legitimacy is not so obvious.
Sanch, by all means educate Canadians about our hysterical treatment of the Japanese during WW2, how we refused to take Jewish refugees from Hitler's nightmare, that the South African government came here on a fact-finding mission in the 1960's to learn more about our successful Apartheid against our Native peoples. Our first prime minister was a drunk who used to vomit during speeches in the House. We had one who took advice from his dead mother and dog. Our country's actions in Indonesia, Irian Jaya and Haiti are as deplorable as any we accuse the US of. Canadians need to hear it, and the sooner the better.
We're not talking about dinner guests, unless you regulalry entertain thugs and criminals and worry about offending them by drawing attention to their crimes, and your quaint notions of "decorum" ring hollow when they're maintained at the cost of murdered men women and children.
Adults who confuse history with mythology and nations with individuals need to grow up and learn about the real world that people live and die in. If the cost of eliminating the childish indulgence of North American exceptionalism is a little breach of etiquette, then lets do it! We can console the weeping disillusioned that it's all gonna be OK and we know they wanted to play nice, but were just a little confused.
By the way sanch, what is it about people who get their knickers in a twist over comments like Thobani's that they can't tell the difference between words like "explain" or 'contribute to" on the one hand and "deserve" or "justify" on the other hand?
Are you lying to make Thobani look bad for daring to see the US as no better than France, England, Holland or Japan? Or is it that the distinction between logical consequences of actions and divine punishment for collective sin just too subtle for you as it is for Bush, Bin Laden and Jerry Fallwell?
Sanch, by all means educate Canadians about our hysterical treatment of the Japanese during WW2, how we refused to take Jewish refugees from Hitler's nightmare, that the South African government came here on a fact-finding mission in the 1960's to learn more about our successful Apartheid against our Native peoples. Our first prime minister was a drunk who used to vomit during speeches in the House. We had one who took advice from his dead mother and dog. Our country's actions in Indonesia, Irian Jaya and Haiti are as deplorable as any we accuse the US of. Canadians need to hear it, and the sooner the better.
We're not talking about dinner guests, unless you regulalry entertain thugs and criminals and worry about offending them by drawing attention to their crimes, and your quaint notions of "decorum" ring hollow when they're maintained at the cost of murdered men women and children.
Adults who confuse history with mythology and nations with individuals need to grow up and learn about the real world that people live and die in. If the cost of eliminating the childish indulgence of North American exceptionalism is a little breach of etiquette, then lets do it! We can console the weeping disillusioned that it's all gonna be OK and we know they wanted to play nice, but were just a little confused.
By the way sanch, what is it about people who get their knickers in a twist over comments like Thobani's that they can't tell the difference between words like "explain" or 'contribute to" on the one hand and "deserve" or "justify" on the other hand?
Are you lying to make Thobani look bad for daring to see the US as no better than France, England, Holland or Japan? Or is it that the distinction between logical consequences of actions and divine punishment for collective sin just too subtle for you as it is for Bush, Bin Laden and Jerry Fallwell?
I think not said:
ITN
Gosh darn that Radio SETI - broadcasting all those "truths".... we just can't outwit their most dedicated and enthusiastic listeners.
I await the response to your challenge! :lol:
Pastafarian
You mock my simplistic words ie: hurt and animosity?
I was merely bringing my expressions down to your elementary level of discourse.
You have a great deal to learn about the magnificence of ambassadorial behavior - which can win hands down rather than your preferred path of insults - which Sunera chose to deliver.
She came off as a mad woman who teaches students. I call that mind bend.
It seems you are a product of that model of insular thought.
I can up the bar of linguistic perambulation if you like but we'd spend a good deal of space explaining things to you. Tough beans ???
Hahaha that's a good start!
I guess you are one of the males who agree with the concept of Women's Studies programs? Don't you get that these believers are all out to denigrate the male of the species? Sperm donors I believe is their mantra for the general masculine population.
Strange from Thobani however advocating belief in Sha'ria Law when she is fighting for "women's rights" in her classes. Conflicts abound. Certainly lost a round of "international relations" for Canada that night. But she won a great deal of attention for herself - which is more important to her.
You mock my simplistic words ie: hurt and animosity?
I was merely bringing my expressions down to your elementary level of discourse.
You have a great deal to learn about the magnificence of ambassadorial behavior - which can win hands down rather than your preferred path of insults - which Sunera chose to deliver.
She came off as a mad woman who teaches students. I call that mind bend.
It seems you are a product of that model of insular thought.
I can up the bar of linguistic perambulation if you like but we'd spend a good deal of space explaining things to you. Tough beans ???
Hahaha that's a good start!I guess you are one of the males who agree with the concept of Women's Studies programs? Don't you get that these believers are all out to denigrate the male of the species? Sperm donors I believe is their mantra for the general masculine population.
Strange from Thobani however advocating belief in Sha'ria Law when she is fighting for "women's rights" in her classes. Conflicts abound. Certainly lost a round of "international relations" for Canada that night. But she won a great deal of attention for herself - which is more important to her.
Pastafarian
Oh I didn't mention in my earlier post Sunera's speech was entitled "War Frenzy" - and the Canadian Government contributed $80,000 to the three day anti-American event.
I guess I have it all wrong. Free speech and all that.
The dutiful RCMP investigated her hatemongering and declared that is was safe, knowing all the while the sponsorship was the government itself.
But free speech is allowed. I bow down to that wisdom and hope my message will not be deleted.
Oh I didn't mention in my earlier post Sunera's speech was entitled "War Frenzy" - and the Canadian Government contributed $80,000 to the three day anti-American event.
I guess I have it all wrong. Free speech and all that.
The dutiful RCMP investigated her hatemongering and declared that is was safe, knowing all the while the sponsorship was the government itself.
But free speech is allowed. I bow down to that wisdom and hope my message will not be deleted.
pastafarian said:
You can prove anything you wish pastafarian, the truth is usually, almost always, on the surface, you don't have to dig deep down to find anything.
It's pretty simple to me really, when there are 6 million votes cast and 537 make a difference it becomes a natural breeding ground for conspiracy theorists. Were the 2000 elections problematic? You bet they were, but you can attribute most of the blame to the media rushing to declare victory which they avoided in 2004.
But by all means present the evidence, I always keep an open mind for the sake of democracy.
Pastafarian I imagine you have your own collective sins to deal with. Does your house not sit on aboriginal land? Have you made any attempt to return your and your families land to their rightful owners? Do you not benefit from the massive amounts of trade Canada does with the US? So exactly what kind of subtle distinction do you want to make? Are they simply distinctions that exclude you? A cute name but you have appropriated the identity of people who actually suffered.
To enlighten you a bit the Canadian strategy of enfranchising and empowering certain segments within ethnic groups was borrowed from the British who used it to manage their empire. It’s a straight forward patronage system that recognizes the best way to deal with fanaticism is to legitimize it by giving it a public identity by the way of professorships or public office. Does it not make you wonder how in a totally racist society, dominated by rigid patriarchal controls and governed by a white settler mentality (as typically described by Thobani) that a woman of colour was able to rise up within the space of a few years to hold various official positions as well as taking a tenured faculty position? Is such upward mobility possible in the kind of society Thobani describes?
The protocol of diplomacy demands the display of certain niceties when leaders engage each other. If the best Canada can do when attending a funeral is to urinate on the coffin then it will be treated as a pariah. That might be an objective to some like yourself. My point was only that if you engage in this behaviour do not bemoan the fact that the other side turns a cold shoulder.
To enlighten you a bit the Canadian strategy of enfranchising and empowering certain segments within ethnic groups was borrowed from the British who used it to manage their empire. It’s a straight forward patronage system that recognizes the best way to deal with fanaticism is to legitimize it by giving it a public identity by the way of professorships or public office. Does it not make you wonder how in a totally racist society, dominated by rigid patriarchal controls and governed by a white settler mentality (as typically described by Thobani) that a woman of colour was able to rise up within the space of a few years to hold various official positions as well as taking a tenured faculty position? Is such upward mobility possible in the kind of society Thobani describes?
The protocol of diplomacy demands the display of certain niceties when leaders engage each other. If the best Canada can do when attending a funeral is to urinate on the coffin then it will be treated as a pariah. That might be an objective to some like yourself. My point was only that if you engage in this behaviour do not bemoan the fact that the other side turns a cold shoulder.
Saying "Bush stole" the election is probably too strong since there's no real evidence that any of this was planned by the Bush team. My guess is that it was probably a combination of hostility and racism and abuse of power. The central issue concerns the purging of 57,000 voters from the Florida central Voter File by the Republican-sympathetic firm DBT/Choicepoint:
Of course this would tend to purge Balck voters preferentially and in fact:
The upshot of all this is that many more Democratic voters than comprise the margin between gore and Bush in florida were deprived of their legitimate right to vote.
Another issue concerns the fact that defective voting machines were installed in primarily Black districts.
All of these irregularities were presided over and facilitated by Katherine Harris ,who certified that the Republican candidate, George W. Bush, had won in Florida. Her ruling was challenged, and was overturned on appeal by the Florida Supreme Court, but was upheld upon further appeal to the Supreme Court, which voted along partisan lines . There were allegations of a conflict of interest since she was prominent in the Florida Bush campaign. That Jeb bush was governor probably didn't hurt any.
There has never been a comprehensive investigation into these irregularities by any major US news agency.
The BBC reporter who broke the story, Greg Palast also noted discrepancies surrounding results and exits polls in Ohio and New Mexico during the 2004 election, which were also noted by a MSNBC reporter whose name I can't recall. More on that story here
Of course this would tend to purge Balck voters preferentially and in fact:
The upshot of all this is that many more Democratic voters than comprise the margin between gore and Bush in florida were deprived of their legitimate right to vote.
Another issue concerns the fact that defective voting machines were installed in primarily Black districts.
All of these irregularities were presided over and facilitated by Katherine Harris ,who certified that the Republican candidate, George W. Bush, had won in Florida. Her ruling was challenged, and was overturned on appeal by the Florida Supreme Court, but was upheld upon further appeal to the Supreme Court, which voted along partisan lines . There were allegations of a conflict of interest since she was prominent in the Florida Bush campaign. That Jeb bush was governor probably didn't hurt any.
There has never been a comprehensive investigation into these irregularities by any major US news agency.
The BBC reporter who broke the story, Greg Palast also noted discrepancies surrounding results and exits polls in Ohio and New Mexico during the 2004 election, which were also noted by a MSNBC reporter whose name I can't recall. More on that story here