U.S. to re-route Keystone XL due to environmental concerns

mikemac

Nominee Member
Oct 13, 2008
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Thanks for trying to correct the error that refined products cannot be piped TenPenny. To put an end to this assumption here's some of the text from the page that you found the map on.
Refined Products Pipelines

Refined Products Pipelines
The nation's crude oil pipelines transport crude oil from oilfields to refineries where the oil is turned into dozens of useful products such as gasoline, home heating oil, jet fuel, diesel, lubricants and the raw materials for fertilizer, chemicals and pharmaceuticals.

Products pipelines then transport refined products to terminals or local distribution centers. Refined products are then distributed to the companies and consumers who rely on a steady and economically transported supply of these products.

Most gasoline and diesel fuel supplies are delivered to the marketplace by pipelines - from refineries to local distribution centers. Tanker trucks carry gasoline only the last few miles of the trip to individual service stations. Major American airports rely almost entirely on pipelines, and have dedicated pipelines to deliver jet fuel directly to the airport.

Almost all plastics are made from resins and other raw materials derived from oil. From our office desks to children's toys, we touch some sort of petroleum-based product almost every moment of our day.

There are approximately 95,000 miles nationwide of refined products pipelines. Refined products pipelines are found in almost every state in the U.S., with the exception of some New England states. These refined product pipelines vary in size from relatively small 8 to 12 inch diameter lines up to 42 inches in diameter.

The map below shows major refined products pipelines in the U.S.
So I stand with what I previously said which was, "It seems to me that the Harper administration and the Alberta Premier are more concerned with temporary jobs in the US building the pipeline than they are concerned about permanent jobs for Canadians. If it was refined in Canada it would supply permanent Canadian jobs in the refinery as well as permanent Canadian jobs to truck it to Texas after it was refined."

My next post will show what a stupid idea pipelines are.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
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Thanks for trying to correct the error that refined products cannot be piped TenPenny. To put an end to this assumption here's some of the text from the page that you found the map on.

I thought I'd toss that in, since I sell pumps that are used for pipeline transports, and I figured it was better for people to have the correct facts.
 

Durry

House Member
May 18, 2010
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So I stand with what I previously said which was, "It seems to me that the Harper administration and the Alberta Premier are more concerned with temporary jobs in the US building the pipeline than they are concerned about permanent jobs for Canadians. If it was refined in Canada it would supply permanent Canadian jobs in the refinery as well as permanent Canadian jobs to truck it to Texas after it was refined."
are.
The oil business is and should always be run by private businesses. Whenever the governments get involved, they screw it up. Petro Can is a prime example.
 

mikemac

Nominee Member
Oct 13, 2008
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That's very honest of you Ten Penny seeing you are in the industry.

As if private businesses don't screw up Durry, as you can see below. Besides I didn't mention anything about the government getting involved with the oil business. I mean, heaven forbid, we have to keep aligned with the US libertarian laissez-faire free market model, seeing it's doing so well for them down there. Groan.

To show what a stupid idea pipelines are;

Pipeline spills in wildlife refuge
The largest pipeline spill during the past five years was the 228,000 gallons of crude oil and toxic “produced water” spilled by Unocal in the Kenai National Wildlife Refuge in January 1999. The federal government does not regulate “gathering” lines (pipelines coming from wells) and wastewater pipelines in the rural oil and gas production fields in the refuge, which results in the high spill rates.

http://myhaircares.com/Michigan_infosheet_BW_FINAL.pdf
ENBRIDGE PIPELINE OIL SPILL:
LARGEST IN MIDWEST HISTORY
» MONDAY JULY 26, 2010: The Enbridge Lakehead pipeline carrying crude oil from Indiana to Ontario suffered an underground break in Michigan. At least 4 million litres of crude oil flowed into the Kalamazoo River. It is the largest environmental disaster in Midwest U.S. history.

Prudhoe Bay oil spill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Prudhoe Bay oil spill (2006 Alaskan oil spill) was an oil spill that was discovered on March 2, 2006 at a pipeline owned by BP Exploration, Alaska (BPXA) in western Prudhoe Bay, Alaska. Initial estimates said that up to 267,000 US gallons (6,400 bbl) were spilled over 1.9 acres (7,700 m2), making it the largest oil spill on Alaska's north slope to date.[1] Alaska's unified command ratified the volume of crude oil spilled as 212,252 US gallons (5,053.6 bbl) in March 2008.[2] The spill originated from a 0.25-inch (0.64 cm) hole in a 34-inch (86 cm) diameter pipeline.

Shell's second oil leak in North Sea pipeline caused by relief valve | Environment | guardian.co.uk
Campaigners and politicians have criticised the oil company for being slow to release information on the spill
Tuesday 16 August 2011
Work will continue to dam the small quantities of oil – at up to five barrels a day, a trickle compared with the 1,300 barrels thought to have gushed out in the first days of the leak, but Shell could not say how soon it would be completed.

Yellowstone River Damaged by Exxon Pipeline Oil Spill -- Exxon's History in Montana Continues Its Abysmal Path | Bobby McEnaney's Blog | Switchboard, from NRDC
July 3, 2011
Most famously, Exxon and Conoco in the mid 1990’s realized that a right-of-way for the Yellowstone Pipeline that went through the middle of the sovereign Flathead Indian Reservation, was soon to expire and had to be renewed with the Confederated Salish and Kootenai tribes who controlled the lease. Problem was the pipeline had spilled at least 71 times on the 1.2 million acre reservation, contaminating tribal fishing and hunting grounds. When it came time to renew, the tribal members had only recently witnessed a spill with the pipeline that resulted in a whopping 163,000 gallons leaking into a reservation creek.

Oil spills intensify focus on new pipeline proposals - The Globe and Mail
May. 09, 2011
First it was a Michigan river. Then a Chicago suburb. Next was a small stream near an Alberta rancher’s house, followed by a northern Alberta forest.
Now an oil spill at a North Dakota pipeline pumping station is the latest in a string of incidents over the past year that is heightening public worries about the safety of North America’s vast network of oil pipelines. The series of accidents in the different areas has sent oil gushing from cracked pipes or faulty equipment, oozing into waterways and forested land.
For the oil-transportation industry, the pipeline spills could hardly come at a worse time. Billions in new spending hang in the balance, as governments and regulators weigh whether to approve two bold projects meant to dramatically extend the reach of Canada’s oil and gas industry. But the spills have made it increasingly difficult for some to believe corporate claims that pipelines are safe - and have stirred up an increasingly strident opposition to those projects.


That's just a hand full that I found with a quick search. I probably could have found a lot more.

Truck it or train it, don't pipe it.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
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It's likely far safer to use pipelines than trucks or trains, when you take into account the sheer volumes of product that needs to be transported.

All we need to do is to encourage proper design and maintenance of the pipelines.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
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No, not just oil sands. AB and especially SK are sitting on massive deposits of heavy crude which needs to be upgraded the same way bitumen is post seperation process.

If you are wondering why finished product can't be piped, just think of the diesel engine. Compression and friction are not the friends of fuels. They tend to make very large explosions when compressed.

So why not pump crude to Kitimat or Pr.Rupert and refine there and ship refined products. That way we have the option of asia or western US, whoever pays the most.
After Canada's needs are met of course.
If the US doesn't want our oil they are welcome to purchase from unstable middle east regimes.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Thanks for trying to correct the error that refined products cannot be piped TenPenny. To put an end to this assumption here's some of the text from the page that you found the map on.
Refined Products Pipelines

So I stand with what I previously said which was, "It seems to me that the Harper administration and the Alberta Premier are more concerned with temporary jobs in the US building the pipeline than they are concerned about permanent jobs for Canadians. If it was refined in Canada it would supply permanent Canadian jobs in the refinery as well as permanent Canadian jobs to truck it to Texas after it was refined."

My next post will show what a stupid idea pipelines are.

Thank goodness for gravity and primitive lift stations and 6" pipe at very slow speeds. It's no coincidence they follow the Missouri and Mississippi river to ensure grade and without lifts. Check out the volume stats on the XL. It could feed all of those lines. The only thing that will beat a barrel of oil travelling from AB/SK to TX is an aircraft.

By the way there are 4 Upgraders in SK to be tied to XL. Plenty of jobs for Canadians.

P.S. the USAF buys immense amounts of jet fuel from SK. Every 7 minutes a truck heads from Regina to Minot AFB and goes onto KCs.

The grade (slope) is too low to move that much volume.

Canadian oil defended deep mid continent keeps us safe. Think about that next time we go chasing terrorist somewhere that only Allah knows.

You can't heave red white and blue without the red and white of Canada.
 
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mikemac

Nominee Member
Oct 13, 2008
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I don't agree with that Ten Penny. I mean how many years or decades have we tried to encourage proper design and maintenance of the pipelines. If a truck or train has a spill the oil or gas that is spilled is limited to the amount of oil or gas that is in those containers. If a pipeline has a spill first it has to be noticed, then the spigot has to be turned off but still all the oil from the spigot to the leak and beyond the leak spills into the environment. The pipeline spills are much much larger than they would be compared to truck or train. Notice the size of the pipeline spills in the post above; 228,000 gallons, 4 million litres, 267,000 US gallons, 1,300 barrels and 163,000 gallons. A truck or a rail car doesn't have anywhere near that capacity. The size of possible spills should trump the bottom line ($) when it comes to transporting oil and gas.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Have you looked into the technology going into XL and what's it extremely safe? Assholes jabber about Keystone 1 that failed a few years back but how many of you knew it's a 45+ year old line converted from the original TransCanada.

If we ever go back to the moon will we use Scrapollo or go with something far more high-tech, safer and efficient?
 
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mikemac

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Oct 13, 2008
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Well you just said it yourself Mr. Oilman. "Every 7 minutes a truck heads from Regina to Minot AFB and goes onto KCs." Why would you want to eliminate all those trucking jobs? And why would any Canadian care how long it takes to truck to Minot AFB, KCs or Texas? If they want it they'll pay for it. And I doubt if there are many Canadians that think we should go chasing terrorists around the world anymore. There are enough terrorists here in the North American corporate world that need to be subdued.
 
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Locutus

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Jun 18, 2007
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David Frum: Stopping Keystone XL won’t save the planet





Oil from Canada offers the United States energy security into the indefinite future.
The proposed Keystone XL pipeline from Alberta to refineries on the Gulf of Mexico coast offered the immediate promise of 20,000 American construction jobs and many more jobs in oil refining and distribution.

Yet this week, the Obama administration delayed approval of the Keystone pipeline into 2013 — a delay that may well kill the project altogether, at great financial loss.
Why?

One theory credits local opposition in the state of Nebraska, by Nebraskans who worry that a fractured pipeline might spill oil and contaminate the state’s aquifer. Nebraska is one of two states that splits its electoral votes, and in 2008 Nebraska contributed one to Barack Obama’s 365 electoral-vote landslide. Supposedly, Obama is eager to protect that single vote.

However, this Nebraska theory does not seem a very plausible explanation of the administration action. Even a very close election won’t turn on one electoral vote — especially since safety concerns can be assuaged by hardening and double-casing the pipeline.

The true locus of opposition to the pipeline is not Nebraska, but California, where big liberal environmentalist donors have seized on the pipeline as a talismanic cause. These California environmentalists do not want to redirect the pipeline. They want to stop it altogether, so as to leverage an end to further Canadian oilsands development.

What will curtailing oilsands accomplish for the environment? Nothing. This is a big planet full of oil, and if the United States does not buy its oil from Canada, it will buy its oil from somebody else.
So long as demand runs high, oil will be imported and burned. And it’s not like pumping the oil from the Gulf of Mexico, or transporting oil from the Middle East in tankers, is exactly environmentally risk-free.

Getting off oil means changing the way Americans use oil. That change requires a change in incentives: A permanently higher oil price that will encourage Americans to live closer to work, to build their cities denser, to prefer more fuel-efficient vehicles, to convert their bus and truck fleets to natural gas, and so on.

Price incentives work. The oil shocks of the 1970s cut American oil use dramatically. As late as 1995, Americans were still using less oil than they did in 1978 — even as they drove many more miles.
High prices persuaded homeowners to switch to gas heat. High prices and well-timed deregulation shifted U.S. freight transportation from truck to rail. High prices jolted U.S. utilities to stop burning heavy oil to power electrical generators.

But after 1996, low prices ended this conservation era. Oil use surged for the next decade.
Yet markets continue to work. Higher prices since 2006 have again changed behaviour. Americans are driving fewer miles. They are retiring more cars than they buy. They are opting again for smaller, fuel-efficient vehicles. They are buying smaller homes, with a new emphasis on central city living. The recession has of course intensified all these trends.

They won’t become ingrained, however, until and unless Americans accept that oil prices will remain high indefinitely. Which, in turn, means until and unless the U.S. adopts some system of stand-by energy taxes or carbon taxes.

Putting a price on carbon, however, is a concept the Obama administration and the Democrats in Congress indefinitely postponed all the way back in 2009. Such a step would have imposed costs on voters, and in bad economic times, the politicians flinched.

And hey, flinching from adding costs in bad times is a pardonable reflex — if you are a politician. What is unpardonable is the willingness of environmentalists to accede to the political imperatives of their Democratic chums, and to join with the Obama administration in pretending that the United States can move off oil at zero cost. You see, it’s only “big oil” that craves cheap gasoline — the actual voters are the victims of the machinations of sinister corporations selling products that people want at prices that people can afford.

There are serious carbon tax proposals that would mitigate the costs upon non-affluent voters by rebating the proceeds in one or another kind of tax cut. But if you want to use less oil, then you must ensure that oil costs more. Ad hoc gestures like the Keystone cancellation change nothing — except to sustain the status quo, with its dependence on oil drilled and carried from across the ocean.

Environmentalists have become adept at stopping things. A greener future requires the advanced countries to build things — including pipelines.

©David Frum




David Frum: Stopping Keystone XL won
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Well you just said it yourself Mr. Oilman. "Every 7 minutes a truck heads to Minot AFB and goes onto KCs." Why would you want to eliminate all those trucking jobs? And why would any Canadian care how long it takes to truck to Minot AFB, KCs or Texas? If they want it they'll pay for it. And I doubt if there are many Canadians that think we should go chasing terrorists around the world anymore. There are enough terrorists here in the North American corporate world that need to be subdued.


The trucking jobs will be gone soon when the international air cargo terminal and runway are built in Regina as part of the inland port. It's okay though there is more than just a a barrel of oil to crude so the trucks will still run but now carrying petroleum by-products made in SK not to mention all the trucking jobs from the 10 new potash mines being built or in the stages of pre-construction.

With oil, nuclear, potash, nat gas, coal, freshwater, forestry, diamonds, gold, copper, zinc, rare earth elements, some of the world's finest grains, oil seeds, proteins, cattle, pork and poultry in huge quantity in SK make it one of the highest concentration of wealth on the planet that had it's doors kicked open to the global markets.

Life in SK is going be secure for a long long long time to come if we can keep up with demand for the products.

If you like the way Canada is now you'll love the future.

YOU as a Canadian who is working or not have invested or paid into into PST, GST, CPP, RSPs, RIFFs, bonds, life insurance, union pensions, retirement fund in any way shape or form makes YOU a major stock owner (not holder) in the Evil Global Corporate Conspiracy of DOOM.

You know, if you really wanted to make your life better and have the chance to spend more to be more efficient with the latest in solar, wind and oat based plastics for shampoo bottles you'd stop buying an oz of ganja every payday and invest in evil corporations that you feel comfortable with. You'll even get tax credits from the Evil Global Corporate Banker Bastard In Cahoots With the Parliament in Ottawa and your Evil Alien Secret Keeping Provincial Legistlature Near YOU!
 

Durry

House Member
May 18, 2010
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Any oil transported anywhere will be done by pipeline, it is by far the safest and cheapest way to transport any fluid. Anybody who suggests otherwise,,well you can fill in the rest.

It is highly unlikely there will be anymore upgraders built for a while. The present cost of building an Upgrader to just too expensive.
There will be a slow down in oil sands development until both p/l's get a clear go-ahead.

There is also some indication there will be an over supply of crude in the short term (2yrs+) which will future hamper oil sands development.
That's why it's critical that the XL line goes ahead almost immediately otherwise it could be delayed for years ..

*future >> further !!
 

Liberalman

Senate Member
Mar 18, 2007
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Re-route the pipeline to Vancouver Canada and let the countries buying oilsand oil pick it up from there and when the Americans have they're elections then build a branch line to Texas
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
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Some people cry about a series of lost jobs, well who is crying for the idea that Canada
will lose a hell of a lot more. We will lose the control of our own energy and fork it over
to a foreign country for a few bucks. The crude will be refined and the jobs will go to the
Americans, while they gobble up our resource. This could mean the pipeline could be
little more than a pipe dream. I would suggest we build a huge refinery in southern
Canada, and sell the oil manufactured to others and not just to Americans.
We could have one price for us and drive the price up for everyone else. Face it the
Middle East is a powder keg and as it becomes more and more unstable, they will be
looking to North and South America for their secure oil supplies.
America is a neighbour and a business partner that is true. When it comes to business
though, we have no friends. Canadian interests must come first and this pipeline that
gives away our future is not in our interest at all. Some people are short sighted, they
see a few hours of labour making big money, they don't see the future where big oil will
sell us our own oil at seriously inflated prices.
We do not get enough for the resource we have. I would also like to see Canadians
get dividends directly for their product, that being the oil in the ground. It should also
extend to the trees in the forest and minerals in the ground.. Either that or the benefits
should be directly applied to medicare and post secondary education, and so on.
Right now it goes to general revenue and no one has to justify anything. I am against
the pipeline in its present form not because of the environment but because economically
its a bad deal for us..
 

Durry

House Member
May 18, 2010
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I would suggest WE build a huge refinery in southern
Canada,

We could have one price for us and drive the price up for everyone else.
us..
And just who is WE? YOU can build one anytime you want to, but don't use MY money to build a Liberal Loser!!

Two price system, that idiot Truedau tried that in the 1980's and it was a big failure.

I think you should leave the Oil business to those who know the business and you stick to your rocking chair and dream about the old Liberal days!!
 

captain morgan

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Mar 28, 2009
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Re-route the pipeline to Vancouver Canada and let the countries buying oilsand oil pick it up from there and when the Americans have they're elections then build a branch line to Texas


What I don not understand is why the Canadian gvt (or the pipeline companies) don't assess a special enviro-tax to be held in trust on all of the exports.

I always get a real kick out of how these lobby groups scream to the heaven's on every issue, but stop short on solutions that would result in them having to put their money where their mouth is.