Trudeau's Emancipation Proclamation

[Machjo]

I have high hopes that Mr. Trudeau can dilodge this awful and shameful government that we have at present. Glad to see that he can step back from the dum predictable attack ads from the reform.. I mean the conservatives and return with a intelligent response.

Depends. should the NDP ally itself with the Conservatives on this one, the Liberals would be crushed, though granted those conservative backbenchers might turn to the Liberal Party, definitely weakening Harper's majority.

Politically though, this could potentially be a big boon for the liberal Party, and potentially very harmful to both the cons and the NDP.

 

[captain morgan]

Maybe it's a mindset. A dysfunctional government would make the problems more obvious. Are you suggesting that if such a bill were passed, that we'd continue to have a disfunctional government 20 years from now?

Maybe? I see that you are very willing to risk much on an experiment.

It would be necessary growing pains for a better democracy.

It would be a death sentence to a contemporary economy. Think about the petty differences that would hold up any kind of advancement. KXL is seeing this in the US, can you imagine the problems if you needed to convince every single MP of a project like this, let alone the jurisdictional reps that will be lobbying to gain an advantage at the expense of another jurisdiction?

Also, even if regions did decide to vote for MPs who just support their region, it wouldn't take long for them to realise that thei MPs would be next to powerless in Parliament.

... And what happens to social programs, infrastructure, provincial/jurisdictional trade agreements in the meantime?

Now maybe I believe this because that's how I vote. Someone who votes for candidates based on their NIMBy policies or who votes for more aggressive MPs would boviously disagree because subconsciously he's aware that more freedom for MPs would make their MP powerless. Is that the issue with you?

My issue is that the idea has failed elsewhere (see Italy) and more importantly, the porposal is nothing more than an experiment with the ante in this poker game being the welfare of all Canadians.

This is the issue for me

 

[Machjo]

Maybe? I see that you are very willing to risk much on an experiment.

Sooner or later, we'd work together.

It would be a death sentence to a contemporary economy. Think about the petty differences that would hold up any kind of advancement. KXL is seeing this in the US, can you imagine the problems if you needed to convince every single MP of a project like this, let alone the jurisdictional reps that will be lobbying to gain an advantage at the expense of another jurisdiction?

Thatcher's policies hurt the British economy too in the short-term, but look at the long-term benefit. More freedom for MPs would make it more difficult to pass new laws, but the laws that pass are also more likely to stick.

... And what happens to social programs, infrastructure, provincial/jurisdictional trade agreements in the meantime?

Same as in britain. I think the miners' strike lasted a year and thatcher waited it out. Of course it hurt the british economy, but look at the payoff. So yes, this might hurt the Canadian economy in the short term, but then we'd start to see cooperation out of necessity. By the way, woudl you oppose more MP autonomy if the NDP had a majority?

My issue is that the idea has failed elsewhere (see Italy) and more importantly, the porposal is nothing more than an experiment with the ante in this poker game being the welfare of all Canadians.

Apples and oranges. Italy has proportioanl representation, and in fact has the exact opposite of what Trudeau has here. You think Mps have to tow the party line in Canada? Try pro-rep! What trudeau is proposing is even more freedom for MPs and not less as is the case in pro-rep countries like Italy.[/QUOTE]

 

[Cannuck]

So what track is it that attracts you???

He seems to be more democratic.

 

[WLDB]

Even if he's only right two times a day, that would still putTrudeau jr.
On track to form the best federal Canadian government of the last 30 years.

Thats very debatable.

He seems to be more democratic.

There is that, but most leaders of all of the parties try to come off that way until they get power. Maybe he's different - Im not betting on it though.

Are you suggesting that a dysfunctional and unproductive gvt is better than one that has some kind of plan or policy?

Depends on the plan or policies it has. An unproductive government is better than one making bad decisions.

 

[Cannuck]

Maybe he's different - Im not betting on it though.

Neither am I. I'm not ready to vote Liberal yet but given the Conservative's job over the last few years and the fact that he is saying some pretty good things, I'm, at least, interested in what else he has to say. That's more than I can say about the last few Lib leaders.

 

[WLDB]

While it's nice to say that you would let your MP's vote their conscience and not be restrained by Party Whips, there must be discipline within a party to avoid complete chaos and anarchy. Sorry Cliffy, but that's how it works, otherwise you end up with a bunch of idiots that care only about their own agenda and do not adhere to a party platform. While I agree they should be free to speak their mind, they should not be able to hold their party, or the government hostage, which is what would happen once such a measure were to be put in place.

They seem to be doing alright with it in the UK. Even when they have a majority government the government isnt guaranteed to get its way all the time, which is good in my opinion.

Neither am I. I'm not ready to vote Liberal yet but given the Conservative's job over the last few years and the fact that he is saying some pretty good things, I'm, at least, interested in what else he has to say. That's more than I can say about the last few Lib leaders.

Indeed. I have no idea who I'll vote for next time. We'll see whats going on in 2015.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

Perhaps give us the lowdown on how Liberals treated their cabinet and MP's? Some MP's have important stuff to talk about ya know.......

'Cross-burning' furor hits Liberal

Daniel Leblanc And Robert Matas
With a report from Brian Laghi
The Globe and Mail
Friday, March 23, 2001 OTTAWA and VANCOUVER -- Hedy Fry, Secretary of State for Multiculturalism, refused to explain yesterday why she stated falsely that the mayor of Prince George, B.C., had complained to her about cross-burnings in the city. She offered the city's residents a brief apology for her mistake.
Prince George residents lashed out at her initial remarks on racist acts in the British Columbia Interior, calling them slanderous and ludicrous, but Prime Minister Jean Chrétien rejected opposition calls for her to be fired.
The Canadian Alliance in particular wants the head of the Vancouver minister, who is known for using strong language and for accusing the party of intolerance.
In a statement prepared to answer a prearranged question from a Liberal MP in the House of Commons on Wednesday, Ms. Fry compared the situation in Prince George -- an Alliance stronghold -- to apartheid in South Africa and religious warfare in the Balkans.
"We can just go to British Columbia in Prince George, where crosses are being burned on lawns as we speak," she said to mark International Day for the Elimination of Racism.
Later that day, Ms. Fry clarified her comments, saying that cross-burnings had occurred in the past. "I know of this because I was contacted immediately that these incidents occurred by the mayor of Prince George," she said.
Prince George Mayor Colin Kinsley says he never told Ms. Fry such a thing and that there are no confirmed reports of cross-burnings in the city.
When the Aryan Nation tried to recruit members there, municipal officials responded by creating a task force on hate activities, which won them the 2001 End Racism Award from the B.C. government.
"This reference to cross-burnings in the city of Prince George is false," Mr. Kinsley said.
Victor Bowman, president of the city's chamber of commerce, said Ms. Fry's comments are ludicrous.
"It's one thing to make a stupid comment, but when you are the Minister of Multiculturalism how can you be so ignorant?"
Ms. Fry offered a further clarification yesterday afternoon. "Yesterday, I linked the City of Prince George with a specific hate activity. I regret that, and I apologize to the people of Prince George," she said in the House.
A government source said she resisted apologizing until she was forced to by the Prime Minister.
The opposition certainly did not feel that Ms. Fry's apology went far enough, accusing her of lying about "phantom" information.
Alliance House Leader Chuck Strahl said that Ms. Fry had five "untruths" in her statements and demanded she be fired.
"She's supposed to be a champion of tolerance and acceptance and of inclusiveness," he said, "and instead she continues to drive divisiveness everywhere she goes."
Mr. Chrétien fired back that his minister had apologized and that the case was closed. "Mr. Speaker, the Secretary of State got up and offered an apology to the city of Prince George," he said. "She made a mistake; she was in error."
"There is a good tradition [in the House] that when somebody stands in his or her place and offers to apologize to the members and the Canadian public, we accept that."
Ms. Fry ducked opposition questions and refused to speak at length to reporters yesterday. A spokesman would not explain what led Ms. Fry to make the allegation, but added she was not blaming anyone but herself. "She's the one who made the mistake," Pascal Charron said.
He said Ms. Fry will not be in the House today to face the opposition, but rather at an event in Iqualuit.
There is speculation in Ottawa that she may not survive the next cabinet shuffle. Her spot in the B.C. cabinet team could be filled by rookie MP Stephen Owen, who was seen as a star Liberal candidate in the last federal election campaign.

[SIZE=-1]Copyright © 2001 Globe Interactive, a division of Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc.[/SIZE]​

God damn that was funny...

 

[#juan]

Depends. should the NDP ally itself with the Conservatives on this one, the Liberals would be crushed, though granted those conservative backbenchers might turn to the Liberal Party, definitely weakening Harper's majority.

Politically though, this could potentially be a big boon for the liberal Party, and potentially very harmful to both the cons and the NDP.

The latest polls put the Liberal quite firmly in first place:

 

[petros]

While I agree they should be free to speak their mind, they should not be able to hold their party, or the government hostage, which is what would happen once such a measure were to be put in place.

Here is something to ponder about idealisms and the party structure.

If Harper is allegedly Lord God and Ruler of all Canadian Conservative space, time and dimension, who the Hell clipped Mr Panda at the knees when it came to His idealistic hard stance on Rights and Freedoms in China?

He hasn't said a peep since about 18 months into His reign of terror on all things good in Canada.

Was it self-realization or did somebody put a cork in it for him?

 

[DurkaDurka]

Hi lovely people, |I've been away for a bit but is there a lube that makes rape any more tolerable?

 

[petros]

is there a lube that makes rape any more tolerable?

Jiffy Lube

 

[captain morgan]

Hi lovely people, |I've been away for a bit but is there a lube that makes rape any more tolerable?

Whiskey... And lots of it.

Where ya been DD?

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

Perhaps give us the lowdown on how Liberals treated their cabinet and MP's? Some MP's have important stuff to talk about ya know.......

'Cross-burning' furor hits Liberal

Daniel Leblanc And Robert Matas
With a report from Brian Laghi
The Globe and Mail
Friday, March 23, 2001 OTTAWA and VANCOUVER -- Hedy Fry, Secretary of State for Multiculturalism, refused to explain yesterday why she stated falsely that the mayor of Prince George, B.C., had complained to her about cross-burnings in the city. She offered the city's residents a brief apology for her mistake.
Prince George residents lashed out at her initial remarks on racist acts in the British Columbia Interior, calling them slanderous and ludicrous, but Prime Minister Jean Chrétien rejected opposition calls for her to be fired.
The Canadian Alliance in particular wants the head of the Vancouver minister, who is known for using strong language and for accusing the party of intolerance.
In a statement prepared to answer a prearranged question from a Liberal MP in the House of Commons on Wednesday, Ms. Fry compared the situation in Prince George -- an Alliance stronghold -- to apartheid in South Africa and religious warfare in the Balkans.
"We can just go to British Columbia in Prince George, where crosses are being burned on lawns as we speak," she said to mark International Day for the Elimination of Racism.
Later that day, Ms. Fry clarified her comments, saying that cross-burnings had occurred in the past. "I know of this because I was contacted immediately that these incidents occurred by the mayor of Prince George," she said.
Prince George Mayor Colin Kinsley says he never told Ms. Fry such a thing and that there are no confirmed reports of cross-burnings in the city.
When the Aryan Nation tried to recruit members there, municipal officials responded by creating a task force on hate activities, which won them the 2001 End Racism Award from the B.C. government.
"This reference to cross-burnings in the city of Prince George is false," Mr. Kinsley said.
Victor Bowman, president of the city's chamber of commerce, said Ms. Fry's comments are ludicrous.
"It's one thing to make a stupid comment, but when you are the Minister of Multiculturalism how can you be so ignorant?"
Ms. Fry offered a further clarification yesterday afternoon. "Yesterday, I linked the City of Prince George with a specific hate activity. I regret that, and I apologize to the people of Prince George," she said in the House.
A government source said she resisted apologizing until she was forced to by the Prime Minister.
The opposition certainly did not feel that Ms. Fry's apology went far enough, accusing her of lying about "phantom" information.
Alliance House Leader Chuck Strahl said that Ms. Fry had five "untruths" in her statements and demanded she be fired.
"She's supposed to be a champion of tolerance and acceptance and of inclusiveness," he said, "and instead she continues to drive divisiveness everywhere she goes."
Mr. Chrétien fired back that his minister had apologized and that the case was closed. "Mr. Speaker, the Secretary of State got up and offered an apology to the city of Prince George," he said. "She made a mistake; she was in error."
"There is a good tradition [in the House] that when somebody stands in his or her place and offers to apologize to the members and the Canadian public, we accept that."
Ms. Fry ducked opposition questions and refused to speak at length to reporters yesterday. A spokesman would not explain what led Ms. Fry to make the allegation, but added she was not blaming anyone but herself. "She's the one who made the mistake," Pascal Charron said.
He said Ms. Fry will not be in the House today to face the opposition, but rather at an event in Iqualuit.
There is speculation in Ottawa that she may not survive the next cabinet shuffle. Her spot in the B.C. cabinet team could be filled by rookie MP Stephen Owen, who was seen as a star Liberal candidate in the last federal election campaign.

[SIZE=-1]Copyright © 2001 Globe Interactive, a division of Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc.[/SIZE]​

Let's come back to the future shall we, it's the new Liberal leader that is going to table a motion that allows MPs much greater freedom in how they conduct their job in Parliament.

It certainly sounds very similar to Reform. As an old Reform supporter who is not a fan of the Conservative move away from democratic principles and of being fiscally conservative, Justin is definitely giving me something to think about. Is it enough to get me to vote Liberal now? Not really but it sounds like he may be on the right track...at least a better track than Harper.

I wasn't ever a supporter of the Reform movement, it seemed a little reactionary to me. Now I think we better react to what the Harper government has been doing in Parliament if we want even the slightest accountability in our federal government.

The Liberals, along will Conservatives, are famous for making promises before suffering post-election- win amnesia. Justin is no different, he just has better hair than his Dad and Harper. It's very easy to make promises when you are standing in third place, keeping those promises would be tough.

While it's nice to say that you would let your MP's vote their conscience and not be restrained by Party Whips, there must be discipline within a party to avoid complete chaos and anarchy. Sorry Cliffy, but that's how it works, otherwise you end up with a bunch of idiots that care only about their own agenda and do not adhere to a party platform. While I agree they should be free to speak their mind, they should not be able to hold their party, or the government hostage, which is what would happen once such a measure were to be put in place.

But no worries, even in the off chance that Justin were to become Prime Minister he would do what all his predecessors before him did. He would sell out.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely, something our wannabe dictator for life Harper should keep in mind and those of you who find absolutely no fault in his rule.

Justin Trudeau isn't proposing this change as a policy he'd like to implement at some point in the future, he wants to introduce this immediately and remove some of the unreasonable control the current PM has created.

The newly minted Liberal leader intends to introduce a motion that would strip party whips of their power to decide which MPs are allowed to make members' statements in the House of Commons.

Ideally our Parliament is supposed to utilize the combined input of all MPs in an environment of debate and opposition, how can they do that if they're not even allowed to speak.

 

[captain morgan]

Sooner or later, we'd work together.

And in the meantime, everything just goes to sh*t and that's A-OK with you?

Thatcher's policies hurt the British economy too in the short-term, but look at the long-term benefit. More freedom for MPs would make it more difficult to pass new laws, but the laws that pass are also more likely to stick.

Did you ever stop to think that Thatcher's policies were necessary?. The short term pain was likely far less destructive than the long term devastation that may have resulted had she not taken the course that was necessary.

Same as in britain. I think the miners' strike lasted a year and thatcher waited it out. Of course it hurt the british economy, but look at the payoff. So yes, this might hurt the Canadian economy in the short term, but then we'd start to see cooperation out of necessity. By the way, woudl you oppose more MP autonomy if the NDP had a majority?

You're trying to compare a large strike with an massive overhaul of a huge economy.

Please tell me that you're not this naive Machjo

Apples and oranges. Italy has proportioanl representation, and in fact has the exact opposite of what Trudeau has here. You think Mps have to tow the party line in Canada? Try pro-rep! What trudeau is proposing is even more freedom for MPs and not less as is the case in pro-rep countries like Italy.

Italy's gvt is a mish mash of minority coalitions and never is effective in getting anything accomplished. Propotional representation or not, you're advocating for a ludicrous system.

 

[Goober]

Hi lovely people, |I've been away for a bit but is there a lube that makes rape any more tolerable?

GoatAche.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely, something our wannabe dictator for life Harper should keep in mind and those of you who find absolutely no fault in his rule.

I have found plenty of fault with the Government. Harper's government in particular. I just don't happen to agree with many of the things you are throwing out.

Justin Trudeau isn't proposing this change as a policy he'd like to implement at some point in the future, he wants to introduce this immediately and remove some of the unreasonable control the current PM has created.

He won't do it. He won't be Prime Minister anyway, because he has zero experience. Had the Liberals waited and built a real policy rather than throwing the dice on this young man's rock star status and allowed him to at least serve a term with a portfolio he might have had a shot. But the Liberals, who for the first time find themself in the doldrums of 3rd party are willing to try anything to get their boney hands back on the old control stick. This was an act of desperation

Ideally our Parliament is supposed to utilize the combined input of all MPs in an environment of debate and opposition, how can they do that if they're not even allowed to speak.

Really, so if there is an individual who want abortion repealed he should be able to get his 15 minutes. What about Gay marriage, should MP's be able to get up and talk about that? Or is this voice of constituents only afforded to those who subscribe to Liberal Ideology. You see Cobalt, when it comes down to Governments I've seen a few come and a few go. I watched Pierre Trudeau raise gas taxes a week after they toppled Joe Clarks minority Government for wanting to raise gas taxes. I watched Jean Chretien tell reporters that he never said he would scrap the GST even though they (the media) had every angle of him shooting of his yap that he would do just that. I watched Harper talk about an elected senate. That is until he won a majority and installed a bunch of Senators.

You can talk about change, about promises, but to be quite frank. Been there done that. Your best bet is to just give me another thumbs down on this post, because your arguiment and your Savior mean little when it comes to the reality up in Sucking Central.

And your Savior will not be Prime Minister, I'll bet the farm on it. He hasn't got the experience or the chops.

They really should have went with Marc Garnier. Or got Frank McKenna out of retirement. I might have even voted for McKenna if it looked as though he could sort out that dysfuctional bunch of self important naturally governing twits.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

I have found plenty of fault with the Government. Harper's government in particular. I just don't happen to agree with many of the things you are throwing out.

He won't do it. He won't be Prime Minister anyway, because he has zero experience. Had the Liberals waited and built a real policy rather than throwing the dice on this young man's rock star status and allowed him to at least serve a term with a portfolio he might have had a shot. But the Liberals, who for the first time find themself in the doldrums of 3rd party are willing to try anything to get their boney hands back on the old control stick. This was an act of desperation

Really, so if there is an individual who want abortion repealed he should be able to get his 15 minutes. What about Gay marriage, should MP's be able to get up and talk about that? Or is this voice of constituents only afforded to those who subscribe to Liberal Ideology. You see Cobalt, when it comes down to Governments I've seen a few come and a few go. I watched Pierre Trudeau raise gas taxes a week after they toppled Joe Clarks minority Government for wanting to raise gas taxes. I watched Jean Chretien tell reporters that he never said he would scrap the GST even though they (the media) had every angle of him shooting of his yap that he would do just that. I watched Harper talk about an elected senate. That is until he won a majority and installed a bunch of Senators.

You can talk about change, about promises, but to be quite frank. Been there done that. Your best bet is to just give me another thumbs down on this post, because your arguiment and your Savior mean little when it comes to the reality up in Sucking Central.

And your Savior will not be Prime Minister, I'll bet the farm on it. He hasn't got the experience or the chops.

They really should have went with Marc Garnier. Or got Frank McKenna out of retirement. I might have even voted for McKenna if it looked as though he could sort out that dysfuctional bunch of self important naturally governing twits.

Keep telling yourself that, if the choice is between Justin Trudeau or inevitable totalitarianism under a conservative party that every day tightens the reigns of control in this country, I'm willing to bet that a majority of Canadians will choose Trudeau.

While there are some dedicated "everything Trudeau is evil" nutjobs out there, I'm also old enough to remember the pride that many Canadians took in having a leader that forged a unique identity for this nation. We didn't want to end up as a small part of the US(as much as I love that country I don't want Canada to be part of it) under Mulroney and where he was taking this nation. And I'm willing to bet that most Canadians don't want to be citizens of China light, which is where Harper is rapidly taking us.

Say what you will about Trudeau, I'm willing to believe that he will create a new vision for this nation that is uniquely Canadian, which ironically is something the conservatives seem to hold in contempt going by how willing they are to try and convert us to inferior copies of the latest big kid on the block.

 

[L Gilbert]

I'm also old enough to remember the pride that many Canadians took in having a leader that forged a unique identity for this nation.
Say what you will about Trudeau, I'm willing to believe that he will create a new vision for this nation that is uniquely Canadian,

uhoh The Turdeaus wanna give us multiple personality disorder. And be ruled by Kebbec (speaking of wingnut totalitarianism and dictatorships).

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

And how long was Harper in Parliament before he became PM, it's interesting how his sycoph...sorry supporters forget his inexperience before he manipulated his way into gradual dictatorship.