LittleRunningGag said:
Yeah. And people criticize Michael Moore for being biased and over-the-top. :roll:
Tories Urged to Re-open Abortion Issue
- Thread starter FiveParadox
- Start date
Yeah. And people criticize Michael Moore for being biased and over-the-top. :roll:
Re: RE: Tories Urged to Re-open Abortion Issue
I'm sorry that your girlfriend made a decision you disagreed with.
I'm not talking about mental health here (though I've seen women who should have gotten abortions because of their mental health). If we're discussing the woman, I''m talking about disorders and diseases so serious, they could kill the mother if she continues with the pregnancy. The downside of our great medical advances is that few people remember how deadly childbearing can be. Ectopic pregnancies are fairly common and require an abortion. Uncontrollable PIH (pregnany-induced hypertension) can kill a woman pretty quickly and the only cure is ending the pregnancy whether that be with an abortion or with a premature delivery of a live baby.
As far as the health of the fetus- and the majority of late term abortions I've seen have been because of the fetus' health- most people couldn't stand to care for those babies for the short pain filled life they would have if they weren't aborted. And that's assuming they were even alive at all. Inducing labor prematurely on a woman with a dead fetus is classified as abortion, and intrauterine fetal demises aren't all that uncommon.
If anyone can look at some of the babies I've seen and say late term abortions are wrong, they're stronger than I am. This is a video of a baby born with Harlequin Ichthyosis. Don't look if you have a weak stomach.
http://www.thefetus.net/page.php?id=1448
Colpy said:
I'm sorry that your girlfriend made a decision you disagreed with.
I'm not talking about mental health here (though I've seen women who should have gotten abortions because of their mental health). If we're discussing the woman, I''m talking about disorders and diseases so serious, they could kill the mother if she continues with the pregnancy. The downside of our great medical advances is that few people remember how deadly childbearing can be. Ectopic pregnancies are fairly common and require an abortion. Uncontrollable PIH (pregnany-induced hypertension) can kill a woman pretty quickly and the only cure is ending the pregnancy whether that be with an abortion or with a premature delivery of a live baby.
As far as the health of the fetus- and the majority of late term abortions I've seen have been because of the fetus' health- most people couldn't stand to care for those babies for the short pain filled life they would have if they weren't aborted. And that's assuming they were even alive at all. Inducing labor prematurely on a woman with a dead fetus is classified as abortion, and intrauterine fetal demises aren't all that uncommon.
If anyone can look at some of the babies I've seen and say late term abortions are wrong, they're stronger than I am. This is a video of a baby born with Harlequin Ichthyosis. Don't look if you have a weak stomach.
http://www.thefetus.net/page.php?id=1448
This is just too political. On the one hand, I believe life begins at conception, and do oppose killing. I think that sums it up nicely for me.
On the otehr hand, I'd rather not politicize it and see what can be done to make society better without polarizing. At the moment, I'm teaching primary students two hours a week, for free. And am currently creating a moral education textbook which should hopefully be finished by the end of October.
So rather than dwell on political confrontation, let's put our time and money where our mouths are. Of course I don't teach specifically about abortion... I am in China. But I do teach general moral education which is a start, the foundation upon which character can be built. What more can we ask for.
On the otehr hand, I'd rather not politicize it and see what can be done to make society better without polarizing. At the moment, I'm teaching primary students two hours a week, for free. And am currently creating a moral education textbook which should hopefully be finished by the end of October.
So rather than dwell on political confrontation, let's put our time and money where our mouths are. Of course I don't teach specifically about abortion... I am in China. But I do teach general moral education which is a start, the foundation upon which character can be built. What more can we ask for.
Oh, another point, even though, as I said, I believe life begins at conception, I do also beleive that politicizing it, demonstrating and calling people murderers in their faces, constantly guilttripping them and generally showing hatred towards them is tasteless likewise, lacks in wisdom, and gets nothing more done than feeding the free choice movement and making the pro-lifers look like a buch of whatckos, even tot hose of us who agree with the pro-lifers in principle.
Jay, I mean doing things like providing reasonable maternity leaves, affordable daycare, flexible scheduling, etc. How about the rich conservative business owners put their money where their mouths are? How about even laws that really make "fathers" pay their child support? I hear people complaining all the time about abortion but many do not want to address the problem through pregnancy prevention in any way other than abstinence or by making motherhood more appealing. They just want to legislate. That makes no sense.
Ann, like me, lives in the US and the supports aren't all that great. If I had a baby today, I would get 6 weeks of UNPAID leave and could extend that another 17 weeks or so, also UNPAID. That's about it. Of course, I couldn't afford to take it anyways so it wouldn't really matter to me. My income would prevent me from qualifying for medical aid or housing aid or any other type of government program. I am aware of the irony in the fact that I take care of sick babies every day in the hospital, but couldn't afford to pay those bills if it were ever my own child there. I'd have to be an idiot not to consider abortion if I became pregnant and the father didn't want to participate in raising a child. Even in Ontario, I would fall into the same trap (make too much for aid, not enough to live well with a child). Where would I even be able to find affordable childcare (especially considering I'm not a 9-5 worker)? I don't know how great Ontario is for single parents. A friend of mine recently moved to the US (Albequerque) with her son for the chance at a better life. She wasn't doing well financially in Ontario and found a great workplace with great benefits in Albequerque. Sadly, there aren't all that many workplaces like that out there.
Ann, like me, lives in the US and the supports aren't all that great. If I had a baby today, I would get 6 weeks of UNPAID leave and could extend that another 17 weeks or so, also UNPAID. That's about it. Of course, I couldn't afford to take it anyways so it wouldn't really matter to me. My income would prevent me from qualifying for medical aid or housing aid or any other type of government program. I am aware of the irony in the fact that I take care of sick babies every day in the hospital, but couldn't afford to pay those bills if it were ever my own child there. I'd have to be an idiot not to consider abortion if I became pregnant and the father didn't want to participate in raising a child. Even in Ontario, I would fall into the same trap (make too much for aid, not enough to live well with a child). Where would I even be able to find affordable childcare (especially considering I'm not a 9-5 worker)? I don't know how great Ontario is for single parents. A friend of mine recently moved to the US (Albequerque) with her son for the chance at a better life. She wasn't doing well financially in Ontario and found a great workplace with great benefits in Albequerque. Sadly, there aren't all that many workplaces like that out there.
Re: RE: Tories Urged to Re-open Abortion Issue
Quoting Ann Coulter says enough to me about what I should expect from your political thinking. And I'm only included what this braindead person had to say about Canada.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200412010011
COULTER: They better hope the United States doesn't roll over one night and crush them. They are lucky we allow them to exist on the same continent.
[...]
COULTER: We could have taken them [Canada] over so easily.
[ALAN] COLMES: We could have taken them over? Is that what you want?
COULTER: Yes, but no. All I want is the western portion, the ski areas, the cowboys, and the right-wingers.
[...]
COULTER: They don't even need to have an army, because they are protected, because they're on the same continent with the United States of America. If we were not the United States of America, Canada -- I mean, we're their trading partner. We keep their economy afloat.
[...]
ELLIS HENICAN [Newsday columnist]: We share a lot of culture and a lot of interests. Why do we want to have to ridicule them and be deeply offended if they disagree with us?
COULTER: Because they speak French.
COLMES: There's something else I want to point out about the French. Is it's fashionable again on your side to denounce the French.
COULTER: We like the English-speaking Canadians.
Colpy said:
Quoting Ann Coulter says enough to me about what I should expect from your political thinking. And I'm only included what this braindead person had to say about Canada.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200412010011
COULTER: They better hope the United States doesn't roll over one night and crush them. They are lucky we allow them to exist on the same continent.
[...]
COULTER: We could have taken them [Canada] over so easily.
[ALAN] COLMES: We could have taken them over? Is that what you want?
COULTER: Yes, but no. All I want is the western portion, the ski areas, the cowboys, and the right-wingers.
[...]
COULTER: They don't even need to have an army, because they are protected, because they're on the same continent with the United States of America. If we were not the United States of America, Canada -- I mean, we're their trading partner. We keep their economy afloat.
[...]
ELLIS HENICAN [Newsday columnist]: We share a lot of culture and a lot of interests. Why do we want to have to ridicule them and be deeply offended if they disagree with us?
COULTER: Because they speak French.
COLMES: There's something else I want to point out about the French. Is it's fashionable again on your side to denounce the French.
COULTER: We like the English-speaking Canadians.
Re: RE: Tories Urged to Re-open Abortion Issue
Ann Coulter is someone who throws out the type of inflammatory language that would even make those guys on fake wrestling programs cringe.
The fact that conservatives like to hail her thinking or people like her (Rush, Tucker Carlson, O'Reilly, etc.) makes me laugh all the time. Hm... what can I say about Ann Coulter? Well, she's rude. Oh yeah, and she likes to wear a big cross over a very obvious display of cleavage. That has gotta say something about her.
On another note, one of the things I could never understand with our southern neighbours is their admiration for someone who is arrogant. It's as though they mistake arrogance for boldness or toughness. Arrogance is a horrible trait in a person.
Well, I guess this forum is really about abortion, so I apologize but people have got to know about who’s really being quoted.
As for abortion, I’m not sure what I really want to say. I appreciate the sentiment some people have with life, but I think pro-life attitudes toward abortion can be a unfair judgment to be passed over the myriad of reasons someone might have for having an abortion.
Aside from things to do with a mother’s health, or and issue of rape/incest, there are also a lot of other unethical or unwarranted circumstances by which a child could be brought into the world. I think that before any real sense of consciousness in the embryo develops it can also be viewed unethical to allow the development of life into harsh unloving circumstances.
Also, I can never understand how people who can be of the pro-life stance, be equally supportive capital punishment, or of supporting a war. And I also have a hard time understanding how some people of the pro-life/conservative stance can also sometimes be bent against the government when it comes to social programs, welfare, etc. It’s an irony of seeing people who show a desire to save an unborn life also showing contempt for the care of lives which already exist.
I’m not trying to make sweeping generalizations. There are many different people with many different reasons for their beliefs and some very noble, but what I’ve said can be observed. Something which shows a complete contradiction on the attitude of supposedly “valuing life”.
tracy said:
Ann Coulter is someone who throws out the type of inflammatory language that would even make those guys on fake wrestling programs cringe.
The fact that conservatives like to hail her thinking or people like her (Rush, Tucker Carlson, O'Reilly, etc.) makes me laugh all the time. Hm... what can I say about Ann Coulter? Well, she's rude. Oh yeah, and she likes to wear a big cross over a very obvious display of cleavage. That has gotta say something about her.
On another note, one of the things I could never understand with our southern neighbours is their admiration for someone who is arrogant. It's as though they mistake arrogance for boldness or toughness. Arrogance is a horrible trait in a person.
Well, I guess this forum is really about abortion, so I apologize but people have got to know about who’s really being quoted.
As for abortion, I’m not sure what I really want to say. I appreciate the sentiment some people have with life, but I think pro-life attitudes toward abortion can be a unfair judgment to be passed over the myriad of reasons someone might have for having an abortion.
Aside from things to do with a mother’s health, or and issue of rape/incest, there are also a lot of other unethical or unwarranted circumstances by which a child could be brought into the world. I think that before any real sense of consciousness in the embryo develops it can also be viewed unethical to allow the development of life into harsh unloving circumstances.
Also, I can never understand how people who can be of the pro-life stance, be equally supportive capital punishment, or of supporting a war. And I also have a hard time understanding how some people of the pro-life/conservative stance can also sometimes be bent against the government when it comes to social programs, welfare, etc. It’s an irony of seeing people who show a desire to save an unborn life also showing contempt for the care of lives which already exist.
I’m not trying to make sweeping generalizations. There are many different people with many different reasons for their beliefs and some very noble, but what I’ve said can be observed. Something which shows a complete contradiction on the attitude of supposedly “valuing life”.
Re: RE: Tories Urged to Re-open Abortion Issue
Yeah, I didn't think bigotry would be a big deal to you.
Jay said:
Yeah, I didn't think bigotry would be a big deal to you.
Re: RE: Tories Urged to Re-open Abortion Issue
I suppose it's the same reason anti-war support a womans right to kill.
elevennevele said:
I suppose it's the same reason anti-war support a womans right to kill.
RE: Tories Urged to Re-op
My stance on abortions, and this is just my 18 1/2 cents on the issue, stems from rape. What if a woman is raped and therefore becomes pregnant? I think a woman in that situation should be able to adort her "child" if she so chooses. Now if the woman is a complete skank and becomes pregnant for forethought, I don't think abortion should be an easy out for her. Just my 18 1/2 cents as I said.
My stance on abortions, and this is just my 18 1/2 cents on the issue, stems from rape. What if a woman is raped and therefore becomes pregnant? I think a woman in that situation should be able to adort her "child" if she so chooses. Now if the woman is a complete skank and becomes pregnant for forethought, I don't think abortion should be an easy out for her. Just my 18 1/2 cents as I said.
Re: RE: Tories Urged to Re-open Abortion Issue
I don't think it's Quebec policies that she specifically has a problem with. If so, then she is a really poor speaker.
I personally doubt she is even informed about Quebec and it's people. She attacked french people as a whole because that is the type of scapegoating some in the USA need to do when it comes to their frustrations for a lack of world support in a fraudulent Iraq war.
Well done. Cleverly put, but I don't think people who support abortion do so because they view the death of an unborn fetus as great thing. You can still support the reasons for why an abortion may need to occur while not appreciating that it had to occur. I know is some ways you can say the same of war but there isn't any bloodlust involved with abortion. Unlike what goes through people head with war and the death involved.
What was that called? Oh yeah...
"Shock and Awe”
Jay said:
I don't think it's Quebec policies that she specifically has a problem with. If so, then she is a really poor speaker.
I personally doubt she is even informed about Quebec and it's people. She attacked french people as a whole because that is the type of scapegoating some in the USA need to do when it comes to their frustrations for a lack of world support in a fraudulent Iraq war.
I think not said:
Well done. Cleverly put, but I don't think people who support abortion do so because they view the death of an unborn fetus as great thing. You can still support the reasons for why an abortion may need to occur while not appreciating that it had to occur. I know is some ways you can say the same of war but there isn't any bloodlust involved with abortion. Unlike what goes through people head with war and the death involved.
What was that called? Oh yeah...
"Shock and Awe”
All I was trying to do is point out being pro-choice or pro-life, as they call it aren't simple issues. It's not a for a woman to abort her child, although I agree she should have that right, and it isn't an easy thing to "force" someone to keep the child.
War isn't about bloodlust, nor is capital punishment. Social issues of this magnitude shouldn't be taken lightly, is all I'm saying. I am against capital punishment, but I acknowledge my weakness when I hear of a horrific crime, that I want that person put to death, out of anger for what that person has done.
I am also anti-war, only lunatics are pro-war. But I also acknowledge there are instances that call for war, even before one is attacked.
Like I said, I don't believe any issue is simple.
War isn't about bloodlust, nor is capital punishment. Social issues of this magnitude shouldn't be taken lightly, is all I'm saying. I am against capital punishment, but I acknowledge my weakness when I hear of a horrific crime, that I want that person put to death, out of anger for what that person has done.
I am also anti-war, only lunatics are pro-war. But I also acknowledge there are instances that call for war, even before one is attacked.
Like I said, I don't believe any issue is simple.
As it now stands in Canada, a woman has reasonable control over her own body.
That's the way it should be. Any debate on how it "should" be is redundant; we already have the law........But;
If mein Harper ever gets a majority, a lot of things we take for granted are going to change; this would likely be one of them.
Too bad.
Just my HO. :?
That's the way it should be. Any debate on how it "should" be is redundant; we already have the law........But;
If mein Harper ever gets a majority, a lot of things we take for granted are going to change; this would likely be one of them.
Too bad.
Just my HO. :?
RE: Tories Urged to Re-op
The fact that it is legal only prevents women from getting backalley coat hanger abortions. It helps keep the women alive.
If you really wanted to prevent abortion, you'd support proper sex education in schools. That would do way more to reduce the numbers of abortions than outlawing the act itself.
Not to mention the moral implications involved in disallowing a woman to cure herself of a medical condition.
The fact that it is legal only prevents women from getting backalley coat hanger abortions. It helps keep the women alive.
If you really wanted to prevent abortion, you'd support proper sex education in schools. That would do way more to reduce the numbers of abortions than outlawing the act itself.
Not to mention the moral implications involved in disallowing a woman to cure herself of a medical condition.
I think not said:
Yeah this is all very reasonable. It seems clear you are not the type of person I was referencing. I however made such references because of how substantial such incongruity can be seen in the pro-life camp. Yet I still noted that there are people of noble sentiment when it comes to how they view life. I’m not against that. Ultimately the person who ends up having the abortion will have to live with their conscience as to the reasons why they had the procedure done.
I feel there is too much in the way of religious overtones as justification for being against abortion and how a government should legislate. Thus it becomes a definition of how we define at what point life takes on a special significance and that can get pretty blurry during a stage where something still has a very undeveloped brain. But I guess to the religious it’s not about the brain, it’s about it already having a soul.
As for you post, again, there is nothing in it that I would find unreasonable.
Questions for those wanting restrictions:
Rape only: Who judges and when does judgement take place? Is there a court hearing? Gestation is quicker than the criminal justice system.
Why does the means of conception make a difference? If an embryo/fetus has a right to life, why should it matter how it was conceived?
Rape only: Who judges and when does judgement take place? Is there a court hearing? Gestation is quicker than the criminal justice system.
Why does the means of conception make a difference? If an embryo/fetus has a right to life, why should it matter how it was conceived?