Theists and atheists( P.S.)

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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Each side has to give up something. Scientists should stop using their instruments to refute/validate claims about our spiritual world, theists should stop using their instruments to refute/validate claims about our material world. That is the only way, in my opinion, toward peaceful coexistence and mutual respect. The "we know better" conflicts are perpetual poison.

Ludwik
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That there is a spiritual world--by which I presume you mean at a minimum that there is at least one incorporeal supernatural being who has some interest in us--is an empirical claim about the nature of reality and is thus open to scientific investigation. The evidence produced so far is not sufficient to justify accepting the claim as true, all of it admits to more mundane explanations, most commonly rooted in errors of perception, logic, and interpretation.

Both sides have to provide comprehensive evidence sufficient to justify their claims, evidence that is logically consistent, coherent, and evaluated honestly and without bias. Theists have not done so. They will generally resort to the authority of scripture, some version of "there are mysteries it is not given to us to understand," or sometimes they will resort to foul mouthed and abusive bad temper, demanding respect for their unsupportable claims just because they have the label "religion" on them. Those are not legitimate arguments. It's true, for instance, that science can't prove or disprove that a supernatural being created the cosmos for some mysterious purpose of his own, but the evidence does not point that way and it's not true that believing one did necessarily deserves respect.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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That there is a spiritual world--by which I presume you mean at a minimum that there is at least one incorporeal supernatural being who has some interest in us--is an empirical claim about the nature of reality and is thus open to scientific investigation.
If he's the mean, capricious, vindictive SOB the Bible and the Quran portray him as, no, I wouldn't want him in my life.

Would you settle for one that can change your mind from the above opinion to being quite pleased to see this event unfold? (to make it impossible to refuse) all your past relatives are standing right there with you)

Re.21:3
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,
Behold,
the tabernacle of God is with men,
and he will dwell with them,
and they shall be his people,
and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Re.21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
and there shall be no more death,
neither sorrow,
nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away.
Re.21:5
And he that sat upon the throne said,
Behold,
I make all things new.
And he said unto me,
Write:
for these words are true and faithful.
Re.21:6
And he said unto me,
It is done.
I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end.
I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Re.21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son.

It only really matters what you think of Him at that point but you have to admit the offer is given in such a way taht despite what the earlier parts of the book were like this is an offer that should not be passed up.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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You are still under the mistaken belief that a book written by men has the claim to be divinely inspired. All the holy books make the same claim, why would you chose to believe only one of them? If you knew the history of the bible, you would not be making such outrageous claims.

What happened to god between the OT and the NT? Did god get anger management counseling or did he get a sudden divine inspiration that he was being a jerk? Sorry Mhz but it would take a lot more than your interpretation of a bogus ancient text to convince anybody that this psychopath has had a change of heart.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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Would you settle for one that can change your mind ... ?
How's he going to change my mind, by magically altering my thoughts by divine fiat? That'd be a dirty trick, and if he's as described in Jewish, Christian, and Muslim scripture he's quite capable of it. In that event, no, I'd rather have my own thoughts and take my chances on having a heresy rap laid on me.
...this is an offer that should not be passed up.
I'll pass anyway. The offer isn't real, it's just the ravings of some 1st century fanatic hallucinating the end of the world. Your repeated argument from authority fallacies don't work, I need a better argument and better evidence than that.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
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I have a real simply method of dealing with it. Probably works only if one doesn't care about religions. I Just tell all believers that when they can bring their god over for tea I will believe them. Until that time your god is no different than any one else's and ranks with santa and the easter bunny. First religion to produce a god wins a convert.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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I'm sure He will think up something appropriate to say when those days arrive, for both you and Cliffy without it being a chain-letter. lol
If I ever meat this bozo you call a supreme being, he had better be wearing a jock strap. The Creator of my world is far more benevolent, kind and doesn't really give a sh*t what you or I think, believe or have faith in.

Now Momma! She is another story. She is already shaking the tree of life.
 

Corduroy

Senate Member
Feb 9, 2011
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What happened to god between the OT and the NT? Did god get anger management counseling or did he get a sudden divine inspiration that he was being a jerk?

God's still a jerk in the NT. It isn't until the NT that we are introduced to a physical Hell of eternal torture or the chaos and destruction of the apocalypse.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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God's still a jerk in the NT. It isn't until the NT that we are introduced to a physical Hell of eternal torture or the chaos and destruction of the apocalypse.
I'm aware of that. I was just countering Mhz' continual soft sell of his monster.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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lol, there is no soft sell, a lot of very bad stuff will happen before then. You belong to the the Nations so if you happen to be alive you can expect to see or be a part of the dead. His choice, not yours.

Jer.25:32
Thus saith the LORD of hosts,
Behold,
evil shall go forth from nation to nation,
and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
Jer.25:33
And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth:
they shall not be lamented,
neither gathered,
nor buried;
they shall be dung upon the ground.

God's still a jerk in the NT. It isn't until the NT that we are introduced to a physical Hell of eternal torture or the chaos and destruction of the apocalypse.
Since you have said that debate can strengthen your arguments would you expand on how you arrived at hell being eternal?

The verses I can provide show that somew enter there after they taste death. True it is a place of punishment but it is not eternal punishment, when released from hell for the Great White Throne event they have served their while time. If that is the fate of the ones that actually are prepared for war when He arrives then why would a non-believer suffer a worse fate.

You are right, if you are looking for a kinder gentler God the Christ is not going to impress you at the beginning of the day He arrives, by the end of the day your opinion might have changed.

Zec.13:8
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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I have been on this earth for 72 years, and in all of that time, (along with the ramblings of different
religious beliefs) NOTHING has ever happened to even make me blink and wonder.

I see that many others believe in a spiritual world, good for them, but they don't live where I live
'mentally', they are very different than I. I see nothing in a spiritual way, (religiously speaking), but
I do have strong spiritual feelings toward the earth and its natural abundance of life. There is nothing
invisible about that, I can see it all, live in all of it, be nurtured by it, and live off of it, I have
never gathered anything interesting or positive or helpful from the invisible, so I don't wonder what
is there, that I cannot see, there is nothing, so I'm certainly not going to pray to 'it', and make up
something that isn't.

There is NO god anywhere judging me or anyone else, threatening, demanding, those are all rules
made up by man 'along' the way, and different men have different rules, depending on their own religion.

Its all silly, and I don't care or desire to argue one against the other, as in my
life there is no arguement, I don't argue with concrete, might as well beat your head against it, I have much more meaningful things
to do with my time than try to change their minds, they can believe what they want,
doesn't matter to me, as I stated before, I am thankful and happy to be where I am,
and not where they are, it is scary to think that I 'could' believe what they believe, if I was a different sort,
just as scary as the worst nightmare I have ever experienced.
No, even worse that that, because I can wake up from a nightmare, and realize that
it was all just a dream, and have my life back again.
 
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