'The science is clear. It leaves no room for procrastination. Global warming is real.

A

Avro

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L Gilbert said:
And again I say if we run about the planet telling everyone else how to deal with GW without doing much about it ourselves, we'll be hypocrites and our credibility will suffer because of it. Get it yet?

Again I say we tackle both problems.

Has the EU cleaned up its act? Has the EU donated money to China or simply helped it with technology? I could agree that helping with technology is a good thing but throwing money at China is a waste of money.
Click to expand...

Helping it with technology is all we have to do to fullfill our Kyoto commitment, this nonsense of sending billions overseas is pure nonsense and somthing Ambrose tried to get away with but ran away.
 
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L Gilbert said:
Please do because all I've seen from that link is some guy's opinion about Ball. No actual refuting of Ball's evidence. It's called ad hominem attack which is a fallacious argument. :)
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Opinion with links to his credibility.

Your links are no better btw.

Is this a battle of who could out link the next?
 
L Gilbert

L Gilbert

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Avro said:
Helping it with technology is all we have to do to fullfill our Kyoto commitment, this nonsense of sending billions overseas is pure nonsense and somthing Ambrose tried to get away with but ran away.
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If we wouldn't be donating money to China by buying these silly credits, what would you call it? Do these credits actually cut emissions? What do they do?
 
T

thomaska

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Still wondering how the earth managed to warm up all on its own after previous ice ages...you know..without all those suv's and coal burning powerplants polluting the air...

Any guesses? Or is that an Inconvienient Truth?
 
karra

karra

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It's called "Global" warming....that's why.

The following is a pollution cloud over China....
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For a flat-earth nutter the likes of avroe to post a statement the likes of the above clearly indicates the fraud this nutter clearly is and would have you gentle reader become - it seems he doesn't get - if he ever did - the difference between gw and pollution - neither of which have anything at all to do with the other.

So, boy, in case you missed it, Saturday's G&M editorial well summarizes the disproportionate Kyoto burden 'negotiated' by your long lost lampoon et moronic Crouton government - the impossibility of us actually meeting this disproportionate burden, and the incredible and unacceptable cost to Canadians of even coming close to our 2012 targets.

Take a close look at the the bolded print portion of the editorial - it explains how the incompetent bungholes of your corrupt Crouton government let and allowed their very own Canukistan take a most disproportionate screwing at the negotiating table without so much as a smooch or a tickle in sight.

Basically, the Crouton cretins and morons and et als sent aid and environmental experts to negotiate what was essentially a trade treaty - while the US, the UK and others, were sensible enough to send financially savvy number crunchers - still with me - or are you wallowing and gazing upon your very own portion of your very own flat earth?

If nothing else, this at least explains the question as to whether it was the Crouton government's stupidity and gross incompetence, or - its breathtaking cynicism and opportunism, or - a combination of the two that led to this extraordinarily inequitable deal for Canada.

This article implies that this time it was the Crouton Lieberal's stupidity and gross incompetence, however - I contend and maintain that the current Fiberal policy and claims concerning Kyoto are founded on that party's slimy underbelly of cynicism and political opportunism and a pooch named Kyoto - you will see that the Globe also at least implies this to be the case.

What diss-gusting traitors to Canada these slimy wankers and their assorted cozeners are- they'd pack their own mothers off on ice floes if it would get them back into power or warm up a polar bear. . . .

de Globe editorial. . . .

Global warming is a reality. Canada must join the global effort to curb greenhouse gases. But it has to be smart in the way it does so, and Stéphane Dion is advocating an exercise in futility.

The federal Liberal Leader wants the government to reaffirm Canada's unrealistic commitment to the Kyoto Protocol. There is no way, short of an economic disaster, that the nation can meet its treaty obligation to slash greenhouse-gas emissions to 6 per cent below 1990 levels in the period from 2008 to 2012. Despite their good intentions, Canadians would not accept the ensuing reality of drastically lower living standards and diminished government services such as health care. Worse, because Canadian officials apparently did not understand exactly what they were signing when they committed themselves to Kyoto in 1998, it is not even clear that it is in Canada's best interests to remain a party to the treaty.

So why are all three opposition parties supporting Mr. Dion's House of Commons resolution calling on the federal Conservative government to meet those targets and to impose hard caps on industrial polluters? Although the resolution is non-binding, the Liberals are also pushing through legislation calling for the implementation of the accord; the bill will be put to a final vote in two weeks. Either Mr. Dion is naive or, more likely, he has disingenuously placed politics ahead of common sense. What can he be thinking?

Canada signed the Kyoto Protocol on greenhouse-gas emissions in 1998, ratifying it in 2002. It became legally binding in February of 2005. Last May, after years of Liberal inaction, Ottawa conceded the level of emissions in 2004 was 34.6 per cent above the Kyoto target of 563 million tonnes. The level is even higher now, probably 780 million tonnes. But, under the treaty, energy-exporting Canada has promised to cut emissions to an average of 563 million tonnes a year in 2008-12.

It is virtually impossible to meet those targets. Suppose Alberta eliminated all tar-sands development, including all existing development. That would cripple the province's economy, but it would save 30 million tonnes a year. Suppose Ontario shut down all of its coal-fired electrical-generation plants. That would save 24 million tonnes. Not even close to the targets.

To meet those targets, Canada would almost certainly be forced to buy emissions credits from other nations. That market is tight, because the Europeans and the Japanese have also been buying credits, often from the offshore operations of corporations that pay taxes to them. That's very convenient for them. Suppose Canada bought 90 million tonnes a year over the five-year period of the treaty? At the current price of roughly $23 a tonne, that could hit $10-billion. Even then, Canada would not meet its treaty obligations.

It gets worse. The Kyoto Protocol is essentially a trade treaty. Other nations, such as the United States and Britain, sent financially savvy negotiators. Canada sent aid and environmental experts. The terms reflect that imbalance. Energy-exporting nations such as Canada are held responsible for 60 per cent of all emissions from exported products such as natural gas.

Perhaps worst of all -- according to Aldyen Donnelly of the Greenhouse Emissions Management Consortium, a not-for-profit group of some of Canada's largest emitters -- European nations were given more quota than they needed. During the 1990s, nations such as Britain cut their consumption of red meat, reducing methane emissions. North Sea oil and natural-gas production dwindled. Coal imports rose, leaving producing nations, under Kyoto, on the hook for most of the emissions. Eastern European nations modernized Soviet-era factories. Many European countries will meet their targets, building up credits that carry past 2012.

And that is where the trouble begins. Any nation that falls short of its commitments must carry a deficit multiplied by 1.3 onto its post-Kyoto balance sheet. If Canada does not meet its commitments, if it does not buy credits from other nations after 2012, Europe and Japan can impose sanctions on Canadian exports under World Trade Organization rules. "Essentially the treaty is operating against us as a permanent wealth transfer to other nations," Ms. Donnelly concludes.

Those are serious issues that Canadians have to discuss openly and rationally. The former Liberal government had earmarked funding to buy emissions credits abroad. But surely any federal funding would be far better spent on the development of better technologies or more stringent auto-emissions policies to curtail greenhouse gases. As a staunch environmentalist, Mr. Dion knows the extent of the challenge -- and the expensive risk of failure. Yet he is pressing the government to adhere fully to a treaty whose terms Canada cannot hope to fulfill.

The answer lies in improved technology, not in a poorer society. As Prime Minister Stephen Harper said yesterday, there "are no quick fixes to this. You can't just snap your fingers" and solve the problem. That doesn't give the government an excuse to ignore the calamity of global warming, but trying to meet the unattainable goals Canada set within Kyoto is not the way to proceed.
Click to expand...
Hope that helps. . . .
 
A

Avro

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L Gilbert said:
You're wrong. I said humans didn't CAUSE warming, but as I showed in another thread, there has been human intervention. So that makes us contributors to warming. English your second language?
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What is the mechanism for natural global warming?
 
A

Avro

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L Gilbert said:
Does that have anything to do with the science? Or does motive have anything to do with whether the scientific data is true or not? No and no. This is just more fallacious argument..
Click to expand...

It has everything to do with a site picking who is right and who is wrong.
 
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karra said:
For a flat-earth nutter the likes of avroe to post a statement the likes of the above clearly indicates the fraud this nutter clearly is and would have you gentle reader become - it seems he doesn't get - if he ever did - the difference between gw and pollution - neither of which have anything at all to do with the other.

So, boy, in case you missed it, Saturday's G&M editorial well summarizes the disproportionate Kyoto burden 'negotiated' by your long lost lampoon et moronic Crouton government - the impossibility of us actually meeting this disproportionate burden, and the incredible and unacceptable cost to Canadians of even coming close to our 2012 targets.

Take a close look at the the bolded print portion of the editorial - it explains how the incompetent bungholes of your corrupt Crouton government let and allowed their very own Canukistan take a most disproportionate screwing at the negotiating table without so much as a smooch or a tickle in sight.

Basically, the Crouton cretins and morons and et als sent aid and environmental experts to negotiate what was essentially a trade treaty - while the US, the UK and others, were sensible enough to send financially savvy number crunchers - still with me - or are you wallowing and gazing upon your very own portion of your very own flat earth?

If nothing else, this at least explains the question as to whether it was the Crouton government's stupidity and gross incompetence, or - its breathtaking cynicism and opportunism, or - a combination of the two that led to this extraordinarily inequitable deal for Canada.

This article implies that this time it was the Crouton Lieberal's stupidity and gross incompetence, however - I contend and maintain that the current Fiberal policy and claims concerning Kyoto are founded on that party's slimy underbelly of cynicism and political opportunism and a pooch named Kyoto - you will see that the Globe also at least implies this to be the case.

What diss-gusting traitors to Canada these slimy wankers and their assorted cozeners are- they'd pack their own mothers off on ice floes if it would get them back into power or warm up a polar bear. . . .

de Globe editorial. . . .


Hope that helps. . . .
Click to expand...

It helps me understand how the Harper government now believes in man made global warming like I do.

Thanks Karra, but I already knew that.
 
A

Avro

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L Gilbert said:
I don't know. So far I haven't seen anything refuting his evidence though, just an ad hominem attack.
Click to expand...

How is that an ad hominem attack? The guy says he's a professor in climatology. He's not. He's a professor of geography. The guy says he's been a professor for 28 years. He hasn't been. He's been a professor of geography for 8 years and is already retired. The guy misleads and says he got a PhD in London. He neglects to say it's a PhD in philosophy and instead calls it a PhD in Science. The guy has never published a paper in scholarly peer reviewed journals on what is essentially global warming. The guy's whole argument centers upon him being an expert in the field. He's not. He was never really in the field. That's not an ad hominem attack. It's the substance of his argument. He says look at me, I'm a world leading expert on climatology. Therefore listen to me when I say global warming is political and not scientific. He's the one not giving substance. Therefore the argument goes to whether or not he's suited to make such claims. He is not. Pointing out someone is lying is not an ad hominem attack.

http://www.desmogblog.com/dr-tim-ball-the-lie-that-just-wont-die#comment-24496
 
karra

karra

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It helps me understand how the Harper government now believes in man made global warming like I do.

Thanks Karra, but I already knew that.
Click to expand...
No need to thank me - it's a service I provide for nutters-galore, so I'm happy to be of assistance - interestingly you continue to ignore the very facts presented afore ye - no surprise really considering what you're all about - which is nothing very much at all, as usual - not to mention your comprehension skills, or gross and obvious lack thereof. . .
 
A

Avro

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karra said:
No need to thank me - it's a service I provide for nutters-galore, so I'm happy to be of assistance - interestingly you continue to ignore the very facts presented afore ye - no surprise really considering what you're all about - which is nothing very much at all, as usual - not to mention your comprehension skills, or gross and obvious lack thereof. . .
Click to expand...

I understand very well that what was once a government of denial is one of acceptance.

To bad for you, eh, what?
 
karra

karra

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Jan 3, 2006
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I understand very well that what was once a government of denial is one of acceptance.
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Are you particularly stupid all on your own - or is it genetic - so, which part of the following are you having the most difficulty with - or is it simply all. . . .

Originally Posted by karra
No need to thank me - it's a service I provide for nutters-galore, so I'm happy to be of assistance - interestingly you continue to ignore the very facts presented afore ye - no surprise really considering what you're all about - which is nothing very much at all, as usual - not to mention your comprehension skills, or gross and obvious lack thereof. . .
Click to expand...
 
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