The root of all evil

[Freethinker]

I just finished watching both parts of this UK program (via bit torrent) Where evolutionist Dawkins examines the rise of fundementalist religion and the seeming retreat of reason. I read elsewhere that Dawkins didn't approve of the title. The network was aiming for more controversy than Dawkins alone generates.

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/special_packages/sunday_review/13736462.htm

• Imagine, sang John Lennon, a world with no religion. Imagine no suicide bombers, no 9/11, no 7/7, no Crusades, no witch-hunts, no Gunpowder Plot, no Kashmir dispute, no Indian partition, no Israel/Palestine wars, no Serb/Croat/Muslim massacres, no Northern Ireland "troubles."
  
  Imagine no Taliban to blow up ancient statues, no public beheadings of blasphemers, no flogging of female skin for the crime of showing an inch of it. Imagine no persecutions of the Jews - no Jews to persecute indeed, for, without religious taboos against marrying out, the Diaspora would long ago have merged into Europe.
  
  Hitler invoked "My feelings as a Christian" to justify his anti-Semitism, and he wrote in Mein Kampf: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: By defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Edit: Found link to original program: http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/C/can_you_believe_it/debates/rootofevil.html

 

[tracy]

It's an interesting idea for sure. I certainly see the problems that religion brings and it isn't something important in my life, but I know others who swear it's improved their lives... As long as they don't bug me about converting to their religion, I couldn't care less.

 

[Curiosity]

I not inclined to blame religion of any kind.....

....only what mankind does in its name.

 

[I think not]

A religious man is a person who holds God and man in one thought at one time, at all times, who suffers harm done to others, whose greatest passion is compassion, whose greatest strength is love and defiance of despair. - New York Journal-American, April 5, 1963

 

[tracy]

I only wish they all acted accordingly ITN.

 

[I think not]

Same here tracy.

 

[Freethinker]

Wednesday:
On the issue, of blaming mankind instead of religion. Who do you think penned the religious books?

I agree with the responsibility ultimately being with the individual for their actions. But the quote that is in my Sig comes from the show. It was after Dawkins interviewed one of the friends of a convicted murderer of an abortion doctor. His friend was of the same mindset, he really didn't recognize any crime. Explained his friend was acting in defence of life. Dawkins said he didn't get any impression the guy he was talking to was evil. That is when he mentioned the Sig quote.

The problem is with any religious fundamentalism, that convinces you of the certitude of your actions and absolves any personal guilt for them. Whether it is shooting abortion doctors in the USA, or hanging homosexuals in Iran. You have this book that is supposed to be believed without question and all of those around you reinforcing the belief that it is ok (or even your duty) to kill homosexuals or abortion doctors.

The more fundemental the belief the less anything or anyone outside the religion matters.

 

[Colpy]

I not inclined to blame religion of any kind.....

....only what mankind does in its name.

Very well said, WC

 

[Curiosity]

Colpy

Thanks!

Free Thinker

Religious belief as we practice it was manmade - therefore doomed to fail. As is man in his present state.

We are arrogant beings to believe we have found the answers to our place in the here and now.

Religion may be a dream we have not yet realized.

 

[the caracal kid]

I not inclined to blame religion of any kind.....

....only what mankind does in its name.

but it is in the application of religion that we find the truest measure....

an idea is an idea,
an idea turned into action speaks of both the idea and the actor.

or

"judge a tree by the fruit it bears"

 

[jeckgo]

Hi Freethinker,
Are the original programs available over the Internet? What you linked to seems to be a review of the programs.

"Evil" will always exist. Religon is just the most convienient excuse our world has. If religion didn't exist, socio-economic class, ethnicity, nationality, partisanship, simple greed, etc would rise up in popularity to compensate the void.

People would still have morals, and concepts of right and wrong that would still be a strongly held as today. If anything, the only thing we can blame religon for in a negitive light is a) introducing and developing "good" and "evil" (different from right/wrong) and b) being a more convienient excuse than the others.

 

[the caracal kid]

and yet evil does not exist at all.

 

[Freethinker]

Re: RE: The root of all evil

Hi Freethinker,
Are the original programs available over the Internet? What you linked to seems to be a review of the programs.

"Evil" will always exist. Religon is just the most convienient excuse our world has. If religion didn't exist, socio-economic class, ethnicity, nationality, partisanship, simple greed, etc would rise up in popularity to compensate the void.

People would still have morals, and concepts of right and wrong that would still be a strongly held as today. If anything, the only thing we can blame religon for in a negitive light is a) introducing and developing "good" and "evil" (different from right/wrong) and b) being a more convienient excuse than the others.

Yes, search on mininova.org. You will need bit-torrent client to get it.

I watched the segment with Rev Michael Bray again. We don't get to see a middle eastern terror imam so clearly answer questions about why they think killing is righteous, but Michael is no frothing madman, he has charm and wit and believes he is doing gods work, believes Paul Hill is in heaven for murdering an abortion doctor.

This is the critical difference that religion provides, people think they are doing ultimate good while they murder. Most people who murder, know it is wrong, but religion provides an absolute certitude that the killer is right to kill. This is not someone doing wrong and using religion as justification. Religion has convinced them they are absolutely right to kill.


http://www.rickross.com/reference/a-abortion/a-abortion7.html

• But Hill has his passionate followers, chief among them the Rev. Michael Bray, pastor of a small Lutheran church in Bowie, Md., who has a "Free Paul Hill" bumper sticker on his Chevy Suburban, along with one that reads "Execute Murderers/Abortionists."
  
  DeArmond, a Bellingham, Wash.-based expert on religious and right-wing extremism, said Hill is aligned with the Christian Identity movement that preaches violence in the service of "the one true God."
  
  Last week, over the course of an hour in a prison interview room the size of an office cubicle, Hill, 45, a former Presbyterian minister, demonstrated why the battle over abortion rights may not ever be settled at the polls or in the courts.
  
  Hill said that he would not rule out the use of chemical or biological weapons by antiabortion activists, that it may be "just" to assassinate Supreme Court justices who support Roe v. Wade, that any faith other than "true" Christian worship is in the service of Satan, and that abortion foes who share his views are ready to engage in more violence.

 

[iamcanadian]

Re: RE: The root of all evil

and yet evil does not exist at all.

Some would say that evil is the absence of good.

Kind of like light and the darkness.

Mankind naturally degrades to evil becuase goodness involves sacrifice and hard work to maintain. People are naturally lazy and will take the easiest road that is open to them.

Good needs to be preserved and protected and advanced constantly to keep the tendancy towards evil for causing harm.

 

[Curiosity]

Caracal/IamCanadian

Good and Evil are two words which have diverse meanings to many.

We tend to think "culturally" and within "group" regarding these two phenoms in humanity - and somehow organized religions seem to dwell on them to attract followers.....

If we listen - we know which is which as it pertains to us alone - that should be enough.

Whether we choose one over the other is always a personal issue and decision, driven by our own needs. The decisions are not always to benefit "mankind" but ourselves...and our survival...in comfort.

 

[iamcanadian]

The Ying and Yang seems to be the popular view shared by most people and also all the different major religions.

It is not all that complicated and people learn the basic difference between right and wrong by the age of 6, so there is no rocket science involved.

 

[Curiosity]

CaracalKid

Yup - age six would be about right for evolutionary development of the human mind. We only use a miniscule part of our brain now - but we have to find ways to accommodate a growth or expansion of our brains so we can be born (in comfort).

 

[jeckgo]

I actually, all of the bad things I've done occured when I was ignoring or neglecting my faith.

People are driven by needs, desires, and pain. Religion's just the scapegoat, for once again, humans try to find something to blame in order to duck accepting responsibility.