The Owners of Democracy at work in Nicaragua
- Thread starter darkbeaver
- Start date
Down boy.
That's a good boy.
Here's another milk bone from your twin masters
Democracy and Capitalism, and its incestuous cousin
Government.
That's a good boy.
Here's another milk bone from your twin masters
Democracy and Capitalism, and its incestuous cousin
Government.
Re: RE: The Owners of Democracy at work in Nicaragua
I disagree with this.
The US would rather have democracies than not.
However, the US has interfered in democracies when it has suited their purpose.
cortezzz said:
I disagree with this.
The US would rather have democracies than not.
However, the US has interfered in democracies when it has suited their purpose.
Said1 said:darkbeaver said:Said1 said:
I think you're right Said1 but liberal democracy is not an idea or direction that capital has ever been interested in promoting , as a matter of fact capital avoids it like the plague.
Markets are freer in Liberal/Constitutional Democracies.
Like I'v said before a free market does not necessarily give a Goddamn about free people.If you want free markets that's fine for the markets what does it do for you the people. We live in free markets now and the wealth is migrating away from the masses upward to the rich. Without regulation that trend will continue, if you enhance that free market it will accelerate the trend and the capital will flow upward to the rich faster, without regulation the wealth coagulates at the top and the economy grinds to a halt IMHO.
Re: RE: The Owners of Democracy at work in Nicaragua
my statement was--- not correct
what i meant to say
was the US has interfered with democrasies when it has suited their purpose-- which happens to be--
a lot of the time---
so-- as a matter of priciple----
democrasy-- is not an ideal
it is -- incidental
perhaps epiphenomenal
the goal is driven by the will to power
so for the little people
democrasy may or may not be
the outcome
Toro said:
my statement was--- not correct
what i meant to say
was the US has interfered with democrasies when it has suited their purpose-- which happens to be--
a lot of the time---
so-- as a matter of priciple----
democrasy-- is not an ideal
it is -- incidental
perhaps epiphenomenal
the goal is driven by the will to power
so for the little people
democrasy may or may not be
the outcome
Juxtapose Darkbeaver's thought with a former argument
of the Leftwing.
The Leftwing used to brag about the size of other
nations' foreign aid.
What a wonderful thing it is.
Yet look now how much wealth has transferred to
other nations by free world trade.
Foreign aid was a patronizing drop in the bucket
compared.
Other nations bragged how much they helped other
nations by touting a percentage of their GNP going
to foreign aid.
Now look.
Free market is doing it in a way none of us seemed to
be able to control. We miss doing it by foreign aid.
Now look at the monsters growing taking away
our entitlements, our lap of entitled benefits.
Emerging nations are getting more
of a piece of the pie by free market trade than foreign
aid could ever hope to accomplish.
Let a single man in South America run it by bragging
about what he dispenses and still it will be tiny
compared to the wild wooly world of free trade.
of the Leftwing.
The Leftwing used to brag about the size of other
nations' foreign aid.
What a wonderful thing it is.
Yet look now how much wealth has transferred to
other nations by free world trade.
Foreign aid was a patronizing drop in the bucket
compared.
Other nations bragged how much they helped other
nations by touting a percentage of their GNP going
to foreign aid.
Now look.
Free market is doing it in a way none of us seemed to
be able to control. We miss doing it by foreign aid.
Now look at the monsters growing taking away
our entitlements, our lap of entitled benefits.
Emerging nations are getting more
of a piece of the pie by free market trade than foreign
aid could ever hope to accomplish.
Let a single man in South America run it by bragging
about what he dispenses and still it will be tiny
compared to the wild wooly world of free trade.
Re: RE: The Owners of Democracy at work in Nicaragua
Toro you're lying to yourself, that's bad, your country and mine would much rather be big coporations because that's the path both countries are on and that's what they promote at home and abroad, the first democracy the US interfered with was it's own the founding fathers and numerous others have warned about the present conditions we endure, and they were right to issue those warnings because big money ain't got no soul.
The United States of America (christ that's a clumsey title,wouldn't Oceana be easier) prefers dealing with undemocratic
countries, where a lot of the red tape that hampers free markets has been removed or never existed. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Iraq, South Vietnam, the Philipines etc;
So what the United States prefers is free market states which of course by definition do not have democratic people but do have democratic capital.IMHO
Toro said:
Toro you're lying to yourself, that's bad, your country and mine would much rather be big coporations because that's the path both countries are on and that's what they promote at home and abroad, the first democracy the US interfered with was it's own the founding fathers and numerous others have warned about the present conditions we endure, and they were right to issue those warnings because big money ain't got no soul.
The United States of America (christ that's a clumsey title,wouldn't Oceana be easier) prefers dealing with undemocratic
countries, where a lot of the red tape that hampers free markets has been removed or never existed. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Iraq, South Vietnam, the Philipines etc;
So what the United States prefers is free market states which of course by definition do not have democratic people but do have democratic capital.IMHO
RE: The Owners of Democra
The free markets are doing squat for the people of the planet, stealing water and resources and privitizing the friggin air is hardly a boon for the people.
The free markets are doing squat for the people of the planet, stealing water and resources and privitizing the friggin air is hardly a boon for the people.
RE: The Owners of Democra
I know you want to bring us down the path to a communist dictatorship beaver, but now you're just being silly.
I know you want to bring us down the path to a communist dictatorship beaver, but now you're just being silly.
A more clumsier title is The Republic of Serbia and
Montenegro, especially for Montenegro residents.
But seriously Darkbeaver, I don't see how you
control the wild wooly world of market economics
without becoming quite more authoritarian and
ruling by fiat.
Montenegro, especially for Montenegro residents.
But seriously Darkbeaver, I don't see how you
control the wild wooly world of market economics
without becoming quite more authoritarian and
ruling by fiat.
Re: RE: The Owners of Democracy at work in Nicaragua
And we know how well that's worked in the past.
jimmoyer said:
And we know how well that's worked in the past.
RE: The Owners of Democra
I have offered the hand of negotiation and compromise so that we might arrive at a fair solution, and all you want to do is protect the status-quo and allow capital markets to eat the planet. Oh ye minions of Faustow Lay and Skilling you leave us no choice but to unleash the legions of the DarkBeaver. Behold the terrible Red Tide about to break upon your shores.
I have offered the hand of negotiation and compromise so that we might arrive at a fair solution, and all you want to do is protect the status-quo and allow capital markets to eat the planet. Oh ye minions of Faustow Lay and Skilling you leave us no choice but to unleash the legions of the DarkBeaver. Behold the terrible Red Tide about to break upon your shores.
RE: The Owners of Democra
Regulation and maybe we should try particapatory democracy, and demilitarization. and you should hang bush as a sign of your good intentions.
Regulation and maybe we should try particapatory democracy, and demilitarization. and you should hang bush as a sign of your good intentions.
Re: RE: The Owners of Democra
The legions of Darkbeaver.....
Sounds like a porno to me.....
darkbeaver said:
The legions of Darkbeaver.....
Sounds like a porno to me.....
HI DB Have you read Naked Lunch? Here is my view of LA.
If democracies are allowed to function they work fine and are representative of the will of the people. Simply trying to influence the vote is not going to undermine the democratic process in Nicaragua. If you examine the above quote it is quite apparent that all parties want to keep their distance from the US and if it was found that the US had intervened then the beneficiary would be Daniel Ortega.
We live in a very different historical period than the one which saw the overthrow of democracies in Chile and Guatemala with direct involvement by the US. In the current era once democratic freedoms are realized and elections are held there are now international monitoring committees and oversight. The US has to accept the results.
For most of the last century Latin America was largely a provider of raw materials for US industry and it was to the advantage of the corporations if labour costs were low and stable. The political apparatus of the dictatorship assured that the interests of the corporations received priority. And the US government played a very prominent role in installing and propping up various dictatorships. One could say for this region and for this period that capitalist interests were best served and protected by non-elected governments.
Today capitalism has a new face. There are two dimensions to this. In the first democratic phase in Latin America a lot of leftist governments were elected. The people quickly became disillusioned as these governments could not deliver on their promises and so there was a political turn to the right. Well these governments could not deliver as well and so the political turn in LA generally is now to the left. All of this is very democratic.
One of the primary reasons that the politcal spectrum is swinging from left to right to left is the shortage of developmental capital to create jobs and fund services. The really rich have found lucrative ways to increase their holdings without risking their resources in the productive arena. It’s what Marx called money begetting money. It’s not exactly capitalism to Marx . It’s more like exchange.
At the same time that traditional sources of capital are retreating from the productive sphere new types of opportunities are emerging. This is the second dimension. We are in a new paradigm today and so we need to create new theories or rehab old ones like those derived from Marx. People in Latin America like their counterparts in India and China and parts of Africa need to get involved with these new opportunities. What this new phase of capitalism values are consumers and people in democratic societies are better consumers. Capital has more opportunity to expand as political systems are liberated.
The very idea that you are advocating that capitalism and democracy are antithetical ignores what is going on globally. The resistance to see this new paradigm is quite common as people cling to what is familiar when rapid change is occurring. So the cold war, communism, and Chomsky is like a big security blanket. But it’s a very dated view that has not evolved with the times.
If democracies are allowed to function they work fine and are representative of the will of the people. Simply trying to influence the vote is not going to undermine the democratic process in Nicaragua. If you examine the above quote it is quite apparent that all parties want to keep their distance from the US and if it was found that the US had intervened then the beneficiary would be Daniel Ortega.
We live in a very different historical period than the one which saw the overthrow of democracies in Chile and Guatemala with direct involvement by the US. In the current era once democratic freedoms are realized and elections are held there are now international monitoring committees and oversight. The US has to accept the results.
For most of the last century Latin America was largely a provider of raw materials for US industry and it was to the advantage of the corporations if labour costs were low and stable. The political apparatus of the dictatorship assured that the interests of the corporations received priority. And the US government played a very prominent role in installing and propping up various dictatorships. One could say for this region and for this period that capitalist interests were best served and protected by non-elected governments.
Today capitalism has a new face. There are two dimensions to this. In the first democratic phase in Latin America a lot of leftist governments were elected. The people quickly became disillusioned as these governments could not deliver on their promises and so there was a political turn to the right. Well these governments could not deliver as well and so the political turn in LA generally is now to the left. All of this is very democratic.
One of the primary reasons that the politcal spectrum is swinging from left to right to left is the shortage of developmental capital to create jobs and fund services. The really rich have found lucrative ways to increase their holdings without risking their resources in the productive arena. It’s what Marx called money begetting money. It’s not exactly capitalism to Marx . It’s more like exchange.
At the same time that traditional sources of capital are retreating from the productive sphere new types of opportunities are emerging. This is the second dimension. We are in a new paradigm today and so we need to create new theories or rehab old ones like those derived from Marx. People in Latin America like their counterparts in India and China and parts of Africa need to get involved with these new opportunities. What this new phase of capitalism values are consumers and people in democratic societies are better consumers. Capital has more opportunity to expand as political systems are liberated.
The very idea that you are advocating that capitalism and democracy are antithetical ignores what is going on globally. The resistance to see this new paradigm is quite common as people cling to what is familiar when rapid change is occurring. So the cold war, communism, and Chomsky is like a big security blanket. But it’s a very dated view that has not evolved with the times.
RE: The Owners of Democra
Capitalism has a new mask the face never changes just the mask and the makeup.
The new improved capitalism, now softer with the fresh scent of spring and eight new exciting colours available in the economically sized jumbo pack.
New oportunitys are emerging from my buttocks.
Capitalism has a new mask the face never changes just the mask and the makeup.
The new improved capitalism, now softer with the fresh scent of spring and eight new exciting colours available in the economically sized jumbo pack.
New oportunitys are emerging from my buttocks.
How's this Darkbeaver ?
And the men who hold high places
Must be the ones who start
to mold a new reality
Closer to the Heart
Closer to the Heart
The Blacksmith and the Artist
Reflected in their art
They forge their creativity
Closer to the Heart
Yea, CLoser to the Heart
Philosophers and Plowmen
Each must know his part
To sow a new mentallity
Closer to the Heart
Closer to the Heart
Yeah ah
ohhh ahh
(Solo)
A Wooah, Wooo
You can be the Captain
And i will draw the chart
Sailing into destinity
Closer to the Heart
Closer to the Heart
Well,Closer to the Heart
Yeah, Closer to the Heart
Close to the Heart
I said, Closer to the Heart
And the men who hold high places
Must be the ones who start
to mold a new reality
Closer to the Heart
Closer to the Heart
The Blacksmith and the Artist
Reflected in their art
They forge their creativity
Closer to the Heart
Yea, CLoser to the Heart
Philosophers and Plowmen
Each must know his part
To sow a new mentallity
Closer to the Heart
Closer to the Heart
Yeah ah
ohhh ahh
(Solo)
A Wooah, Wooo
You can be the Captain
And i will draw the chart
Sailing into destinity
Closer to the Heart
Closer to the Heart
Well,Closer to the Heart
Yeah, Closer to the Heart
Close to the Heart
I said, Closer to the Heart
RE: The Owners of Democra
Another good old tune JimMoyer.How do we ensure that those with good hearts get to the high places? How do we keep the Ken Lays away from power?
Rush were very young then and still no advancement from the position they wrote about.
I like the Big Money tune as well.
Another good old tune JimMoyer.How do we ensure that those with good hearts get to the high places? How do we keep the Ken Lays away from power?
Rush were very young then and still no advancement from the position they wrote about.
I like the Big Money tune as well.