The divided left

[Niflmir]

65% of people is a bad statistic for the amount of people who don't like Harper. I have talked before about how the people who do vote do not represent a random sample and so the election proportions cannot be projected onto society as a whole.

If you look at the actual numbers only one in five of the people that you cross in the street voted for the Conservative party. Those are the people whose votes are controlling this country. One in five citizens.

That is the system we have, and no monkeying around will fix it until we decided to abandon the single plurality majority system like the majority of the industrialized world. Trying to limit the number of parties is a bad idea, you are simply saying you either believe a, b or c. So instead of a false dichotomy you set up a false trichotomy.

Not voting: Currently considered as acquiescence, implying that there is no way to show a lack of endorsement for the electoral system.
Null ballot: Considered acquiescence, implying there is no way to say you want to hire none of the above as representatives.

Our electoral system needs so many fixes.

 

[darkbeaver]

well Ndp at the time was a non starter...the real war federrally is always the conservatives and the liberals.....the bloq during the time of chretian made quebec irrelevant......
so beacuae of the reform taking the conservative seats out west and the old conservatives just dying in the east, the liberals had a field day...when the reform lied and that wimp , whats his name, the flake that llost his girlfriend to the hockey player and cried ...the moron that believed the reform guy harper that he was going to lead the conservative party if they formed the alliance...mackay! the hack from hicksville NS....man did he get conned..and then acted like all marks and played like it didn't really happen....

so like when they joined up the conservatives were a viable party and with the liberal quebec destroyed by the bloq the liberals lost....

as i have always stated the conservatives never win an election the liberals lose ....
Canada is basically built on liberal thinking...the conservatives are a tool to destroy the social nets liberals set up...too much liberal thinking is expensive and we need a fail safe like the conservative pricks to take away from the poor....

As a longtime resident of Hicksville N.S. I can say that you are partially wrong about our Mr Mckay who you characterize as a moron and a flake who got conned by Stephen Facsist Harper. That's not correct, Makay sold the remnants of the conservative party in the full light of day. Mr MacKay would sell his grandmother if his father hadn't already done it. The con party, like you say, is basically our liason with the corporate pricks. Never have so few braincells been assembled in so many bodys.

 

[darkbeaver]

65% of people is a bad statistic for the amount of people who don't like Harper. I have talked before about how the people who do vote do not represent a random sample and so the election proportions cannot be projected onto society as a whole.

If you look at the actual numbers only one in five of the people that you cross in the street voted for the Conservative party. Those are the people whose votes are controlling this country. One in five citizens.

That is the system we have, and no monkeying around will fix it until we decided to abandon the single plurality majority system like the majority of the industrialized world. Trying to limit the number of parties is a bad idea, you are simply saying you either believe a, b or c. So instead of a false dichotomy you set up a false trichotomy.

Not voting: Currently considered as acquiescence, implying that there is no way to show a lack of endorsement for the electoral system.
Null ballot: Considered acquiescence, implying there is no way to say you want to hire none of the above as representatives.

Our electoral system needs so many fixes.

Dichotomy yesterday, trichotomy today, quadchotomy tommorow, there should only be one party.

 

[darkbeaver]

65% of people is a bad statistic for the amount of people who don't like Harper. I have talked before about how the people who do vote do not represent a random sample and so the election proportions cannot be projected onto society as a whole.

If you look at the actual numbers only one in five of the people that you cross in the street voted for the Conservative party. Those are the people whose votes are controlling this country. One in five citizens.

That is the system we have, and no monkeying around will fix it until we decided to abandon the single plurality majority system like the majority of the industrialized world. Trying to limit the number of parties is a bad idea, you are simply saying you either believe a, b or c. So instead of a false dichotomy you set up a false trichotomy.

Not voting: Currently considered as acquiescence, implying that there is no way to show a lack of endorsement for the electoral system.
Null ballot: Considered acquiescence, implying there is no way to say you want to hire none of the above as representatives.

Our electoral system needs so many fixes.

Dichotomy yesterday, trichotomy today, quadchotomy tommorow, there should only be one party. Of course government does not belong to the people anymore. We can't address the needs of the public through the private corporations. If we don't rid government of the private sector and tilt the playing field permanently in favour of the public sector and do it soon we are doomed.

 

[jimmoyer]

don't want canada to be a two party system like down south, where the left and right both united into two mega parties that are barely distinguishable.
-----------------------------------OakServe--------------------------------------------------------------------

Previous posts have correctly pointed out a false dichotomy is as bad as a false trichotomy ad infinitum.

The splintering of endless parties is no better than a 2 party system. In fact what do many parties
give you ?

No majority.

Watered down compromises making no one happy.

Such a situation gives every voter an abiding sense his vote will little matter, because the
deal making required by the lack of a majority undoes your vote.

But finally, most of all, I've finally realized that VOTING is the least important aspect of
a functional democracy.

What really is important are those safeguards institutionalized to fight against the tyranny of
the majority. Bill of Rights. What really is important are the safeguards against any
branch of governmental tyranny: Separation of Powers. What really is important are laws
regulating abuse by monopoly.

I can go on and list the REAL goals and accomplishments Democracy strives towards.

None of which ever gets accomplished by voting.

 

[Tonington]

I don't know Doc, there were some planks of the Reform party that I could go for. I would go for a reformed Parliament, a reformed electoral system, the only thing I didn't like was their views on some social issues.

Manning was a smart fellow, and had some good ideas. He still does.

 

[lone wolf]

Canada is "gifted" with apathetic people who leave it upon other people to get out there and vote. Too often the ones who believe in some chosen one's policies cast their ballots and those who go "nothing will ever change" stay home. Oddly enough, they're usually the first ones to bifch when it all stays the same. It's always been between the Whigs and the Tories. NDP came on the scene late - and sometimes has been a contendor. In minority governments, it's those "little guys" who really have the power because they have the swing vote. Party politics suck when it comes to forming policy though. Someone always wants it all his/her way and forces a vote according to party line.

First rant of the day. Need coffee....

Wolf

 

[Tonington]

That's actually one of the things I heard Manning talking about recently. More free votes. It doesn't require any legislative changes, just for party leaders to allow their MP's to vote in a way that their constituents would want them to vote. It would probably mend some of the inequities of party politics, perhaps there wouldn't be a leaky ship, or people jumping ship

 

[jimmoyer]

Apathy is highly over-maligned.

Apathy is a good sign.

Contrary to conventional wisdom, which is an oxymoron, APATHY is a good sign that people are not motivated enough, not mad enough, not seriously injured enough to think their lives are seriously damaged by politicians TO VOTE for or against the sumabeeches.

It's a sign of stability.

Let those interested enough to follow the politics vote.

Let those who rightly think it doesn't matter much in the long run not vote.

 

[lone wolf]

"...APATHY is a good sign that people are not motivated enough, not mad enough, not seriously injured enough to think their lives are seriously damaged by politicians TO VOTE for or against the sumabeeches...."

...or it may also indicate a silence before the rage....

Wolf

 

[jimmoyer]

Apathy, technically is the both the opposite of love and the opposite of hate.

You don't care enough to have the emotion of either.

Most emotions have value in being a catalyst to spur you to action. The negatives of emotions we know only too well, but the one big positive in any emotion is that they are often a spur to action.

That people feel nothing about the process often means they consider their lives largely un-impacted by the circus of politics and that no matter what policies within a spectrum are thrown at them they will simply have to deal with sets of hurdles inherent in life, life just being an imposition.

We all can complain. Such behavior is a mild habit. But, it's not enough to deeply motivate half the population.

Requiring a penalty on those who don't vote might be okay in a mostly small homogeneous population in Australia, but in a polygot culturally confusing nation, you're making the vote become more of a random crap shoot of demographics than it already is.

Apathy still is the best indicator of stability in a functioning democracy.

Also think DIVISION OF LABOR.

It's not necessary for an auto mechanic to gain the skills of a neuro-surgeon, nor is it necessary for uninterested, unmotivated people to cast a vote on something they barely know about.

 

[lone wolf]

There are literal meanings for words, then there are politicized versions. Apathy is one. Conservative is another. Is silence in the face of unconscionability apathy, acceptance, resignation, or the calm before the storm?. I suppose one would have to resort to another of those politically maligned phrases to draw your clues: Social conscience....

Wolf

And you know it's right..... Thunderclap Newman

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

That's actually one of the things I heard Manning talking about recently. More free votes. It doesn't require any legislative changes, just for party leaders to allow their MP's to vote in a way that their constituents would want them to vote. It would probably mend some of the inequities of party politics, perhaps there wouldn't be a leaky ship, or people jumping ship

how can you legislate free votes....another moronic manning idea....

 

[lone wolf]

how can you legislate free votes....another moronic manning idea....

Actually ... it's not. Mandated votes are how Chretien got Gun Control legislation and the limited Hep C compensation packages passed. If it's legislated that a member is free to vote according to contituency opinion or conscience, Bills to suit specific lobbies will be virtually eliminated.

 

[ottawabill]

you are right that the left vote is very split....except some left wing people are confused. In Ontario there are a number of social activist how are going to be voting green this coming election without reading or understanding the Green plateform. The see green, enviroment, non violence..and think hey that's for me.... But the Green party can also be very right wing too.. They want to abolish social housing for example.

Another case of people having no idea what that are doing during election time!!!

btw fine with me...whatever helps the right is good to me!!

 

[lone wolf]

Up here in God's country, it's a Liberal/NDP show. Brisson is shaky. Martel's seat is up for grabs and looks like a very close race. That 4 or 5 percent going to Green or FC could really matter.... PC? Whassat?

Wolf

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

I'm back to being a liberal...my stint as an NDP flake is over...this is a Liberal Country...the conservatives are only there to keep the expenses of being a Liberal country in check...right now is not the time for conservative thinking at all....maybe after eight years of Hilary we could use a lil bit of conservatism...

 

[Nuggler]

Never thought I would get apathetic about an election, but, when it's a choice between tweedledum and tweedledee................................?

If the liberals get my vote, it won't be a vote for the Libs so much as a vote AGAINST the Cons. Voting NDP would just split things up, and maybe the Cons. would get a MAJORITY??? I don't think so, this time around; but, it could happen............so has to be Lib. (convoluted?)

Mike Hairass and Lyin Bryin are too fresh in my memory to ever want to even CHANCE a con. majority. You can BET they have an agenda, both provincially and federally, and we've seen health care and education take too many whacks in their last reign. Downloading, etc., It makes me physically ill to even think of Mike Harris.............Man should be in jail. Prick.

McLiar took physio and eye exams off OHIP. And gave us the Health TAX. Maybe he'll put those back if he has a MINORITY. Seems that's the only time stuff gets done, or not.

So, just on a personal level, gotta be Libs. The Mc.Liar I know is infinitely better than the HairAss I don't....................Not too sophisticated, but there ya have it.

:banghead: Xworking stiff.

 

[#juan]

Honestly, I think the whole left - right argument is really exagerated in this country.......every party is crammed into the centre..

They're crammed into the center because that's where the voters are. Extreme right or left wingers are liars.

 

[ottawabill]

what an idiotic statment that always comes up when someone talks about the conservatives..This Agenda issue.....

Conservatives do not have a hidden agenda!! They rather have A agenda..just like any other party. The problem is anyone on the left can't fathom that anyone would agree with a right of centre approach unless it was hidden!!

Mike Harris hid nothing...you may not agree with his ways but he laid it all out..the only difference is that he actually did it!!

Harper is suppose to have one as well....we have not seen it yet....then we are told just wait till he gets a majority THEN it will come out!!! Boy I hust wish the Government could keep something so well hidden!!!

I'd like to hear all about the secret left wing agenda....all working for China..and when all provinces and federal governments are linked up it will come out.....sounds as lame as Conservative aganda does it not??