The Death of a Toy Soldier

[s_lone]

Oh, so you only will hit soft targets? You will only offend those that will not harm you and not offend those who truly do harm gays.

You get an "A" for honesty I will give you that.

Well hum yeah... I try to avoid getting hurt in general. Most people tend to do that. Are you saying YOU are brave enough to go stand in front of a mosque and make a

You may be right about that. On the other hand Islam is growing and where does that leave people who are gay?

Everybody has a right to view homosexuality as a perversion or whatever bad thing you want to call it. The problem lies when one starts expressing his disagreement by violent gestures. This isn't tolerated in Quebec, neither is it in Canada as a whole. My view is that we as a western society must be crystal clear about the fact that we will have zero tolerance towards hate crimes. My brother as an artist does tackle gay issues because he is openly gay and it is something that touches him directly and while Quebec is a mostly great place for homosexuals, there are still too many teenagers being harassed and called ''faggots'' in high schools. If we can at least settle this issue among us, perhaps ''foreign'' cultures will understand once and for all that tolerance is truly our philosophy here in Canada.

I am saying that art should be bold and brave...art should be original. This anti-Catholic art is old stuff. It's been done all over the world.

Like I said, you and your brother were doing "Paint by Numbers" art. Nothing original. The same with the OP clip. "Die ins" have been a favorite of the anti-war crowd since Vietnam. The fake blood, quasi uniform...that's not original. You portray rebellion yet you march to the same beat as thousands of others before you.

You should be bold and stand up to those who mean real harm to gays and lesbians all over the world. Dress like Mohammad and have your bro kneel and do silly things. NOW THAT would be art! THAT would be bold. THAT would be original and you would be noticed.

First of all, I'm not the ''performer'' here. But I've told my brother to read this thread and he will. And as much as I agree with you that it would be very bold and brave to stand up directly to those who would clearly want to hurt people like my brother, I'd rather he didn't because I love him dearly and the last thing I want is for him to get hurt.

I think you can understand that.

 

[patty_lone]

Ok everyone........I am the responsible one for all this debate......I am the artist.....and i apologize to the ones i have offended...even though it was ....sort of...the point.....

I am not a soldier....and never will be! That's my choice. I hate violence, I hate war and I hate guns and knives.

I think i was wrong in my choice of words.....

"Hommage"

very risky!

It's not like I put on some melodramatic music and spread some flowers everywhere....

i get that...

I guess I was trying to insanely put myself in a dead soldier's spirit....thinking...WHY.....am I dead.........FOR WHOM....and for what... AM I DEAD......

My main target was the government.....and violence......

I like to mix adult themes with childish attitude.....because aren't we trying to raise better childern....more sensitive children....?

Soldiers are heroes because they live out atrocities....... terrible stories....nightmares.....

but there is nothing heroic about a dead soldier.....there are no heroes in war....and any war movie points that out very clearly....

Sometimes I feel people laugh when a foreign person takes a bullet.....but if a canadian one takes one behind the head.....we cry.....

it's all so absurd....

People think that i should attack the politicians.....
and i do...I have in other efforts!

but it's hard to portray a politician at war.....because they never are....literally....
they are in their offices......drinking bottled water....wearing suits and ties......deciding the future of the soldiers.....

But i have to admit, you guys are bringing an interesting point of view....... i should try to portray that concept........the WAR IN THE OFFICE.........NOT ON THE BATTLE ZONE......

I HAD NOT THOUGHT ABOUT THAT BEFORE.....SO THANK YOU

But I have to say in my defense.....that i had very good comments about what i did from people who served.......

one guy told me he wanted to hate what i did, but could not, because he felt there was some truth into it....

another man, which i gave a flower to during my performance ( but you don't see that in the video) told me....."it's funny you are giving me this flower because.....i lived the war....and what you are doing....is brave....."

But on another hand........i have to think about the responsibility of the soldier........

WHY DOES HE ENROLL....?

for sure it's not to kill....i hope so anyways......but when i see a mother weeping on TV for the death of her son...........i feel really bad.....but on the other hand....i think.....what did you expect.....

you choose what you do...

I chose not to enroll.....
I chose to be an artist
and for those who think i should be looking for a real job......I am...

I am a graphic design student....and i have a university diploma in film studies to boot.....

but i feel the need to express myself.......
because i am angry with the world.....
I've been taught to be a good christian....
a good person....
a thoughtful one...
yet what i see in the world in the complete opposite.....
It makes me sick
all those contradictions.....

And I have to ask this question......if i had scolded the Americans instead of the Canadians.....would you have been as insulted..............

I don't think so.....

Now I am not american.....
And Bush is gone (although i don't understand why he is ot in jail...because from my point of view...he is a war criminal......he went in when everybody else said NO.....

you can be sure that if Bush was a arab.....he would have had more serious consequences....

But you know what.............I thank you all for your comments.....even the violent ones.....

that will make me a better artist.....

Patrick Lonergan

 

[Johnnny]

You should try to mentally comprehend the very complex concept of being a student.

Watch out for brain cramps.

i have been and am a student, i payed my way through college and i payed my way through most of university. Im taking a year off to work to save money to continue my studies next september (2011)... What gives me brain cramps is why people take stuff like film studies, philosphy and underwater basketweaving as majors when our country needs more engineers, doctors, specialists and trades people.. Mabye your brother should do a skit called 'The death of the working man"

Thanks for the backing CNDbear

 

[s_lone]

i have been and am a student, i payed my way through college and i payed my way through most of university. Im taking a year off to work to save money to continue my studies next september (2011)... What gives me brain cramps is why people take stuff like film studies, philosphy and underwater basketweaving as majors when our country needs more engineers, doctors, specialists and trades people.. Mabye your brother should do a skit called 'The death of the working man"

Thanks for the backing CNDbear

Having graduated in music, I guess I'm just another useless person in society is that it? Even though I work full time teaching my craft and practising it?

If you get brain cramps wondering how philosophy and art can actually be useful in life, that only shows me you've probably lacked of both in your life. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Most people who study philosophy end up teaching philosophy themselves or simply add that to a string of other studies to deepen their broad understanding of life in all its manifestations. Do I really need to spell out for you how philosophy has been useful to humanity?

Society does need engineers and doctors... But it also needs people who can actually think creatively and outside of the box. If that's not your thing, that's perfectly fine, but don't go bitching at those who are interested in such things.

I think philosophy teachers are at least as useful to society than oil rig workers don't you think? At least one isn't bad for our ecological future.

What are you studying to become Johnny?

 

[CDNBear]

s_lone, I'm going to reply to thread in a minute. I just have to get the trivial threads out of the way first...

brb.

 

[s_lone]

not everyone can be a doctor, or an engineer......i couldn't anyway.....

but anyone can join the army....hahaha

 

[patty_lone]

Johnny that was the most ridiculous statement ever....yes i did take film, but i am also taking graphic design...i you can't see how that can be useful in society you got a problem.....

Maybe I should design pamphlets for the army....you know... to get more people to enroll....

Things like......HEY ...C'MON KIDS....SIGN UP FOR THE ADVENTURE OF YOUR LIFE!

Do you ever listen to music.....do you ever read a book....do you ever watch a movie....

doesn't those things contribute to your sanity.......well they do for me....

not everyone can be a doctor, or an engineer......i couldn't anyway.....

but anyone can join the army....hahaha

(sorry for the reply above i was in my brother's account by mistake....don't mistake my comments for his...)

 

[CDNBear]

Ok everyone........I am the responsible one for all this debate......I am the artist.....and i apologize to the ones i have offended...even though it was ....sort of...the point.....

I am not a soldier....and never will be! That's my choice. I hate violence, I hate war and I hate guns and knives.

I think i was wrong in my choice of words.....

"Hommage"

very risky!

It's not like I put on some melodramatic music and spread some flowers everywhere....

i get that...

...

Now I am not american.....
And Bush is gone (although i don't understand why he is ot in jail...because from my point of view...he is a war criminal......he went in when everybody else said NO.....

you can be sure that if Bush was a arab.....he would have had more serious consequences....

But you know what.............I thank you all for your comments.....even the violent ones.....

that will make me a better artist.....

Patrick Lonergan

Dear Patrick,

Bonjous mon ami,

I'm sure Sean has brought you up to speed on who and what I am. So an introduction is redundant.

I just typed, retyped and gave up on a long winded reply to you. To be honest Patrick, I really don't know what to say. I could pour my feeling on to the screen, but to be honest, I'm not that brave. Nor do I think it would change you're perceptions, nor should they.

You're a bright young man, who's art may offend me, but in the end you have every right to do it, and express your feelings in any manner that falls within the confines of the law.

I actually wish you all the best and if you would like to perform a piece in an area that you feel it would have a profound impact, but be a risk to your safety, I offer my services, to protect you while you do so.

For in the end, isn't that what I was trained, and swore to do?

I think philosophy teachers are at least as useful to society than oil rig workers don't you think?

Yes...

Johnny that was the most ridiculous statement ever....yes i did take film, but i am also taking graphic design...i you can't see how that can be useful in society you got a problem.....

Maybe I should design pamphlets for the army....you know... to get more people to enroll....

Things like......HEY ...C'MON KIDS....SIGN UP FOR THE ADVENTURE OF YOUR LIFE!

I found it to be an adventure Patrick. And though it may have left scares that may never heal, I would do it again, in a heart beat. Not only that, but I have two sons, that may very well enlist.

This nation has a long tradition of producing some of the finest military personnel. I can only hope that I can one day count my sons among them.

but anyone can join the army....hahaha

That's not true.

 

[patty_lone]

Actually big bear....my brother has only told me that you and him have had many debates and very different point of views.....

Sometimes I can be overly sarcastic and bleak....that's just me......i am much more of an ass than my brother!

We need people like you and your children....who are brave for venturing upon these adventures.....so maybe we are both brave in very different ways....

The army may deserve more credit than i like to admit
but I just hope that the military is REALLY used to good ends......but I can't help myself. Things smell fishy. I don't think we know everything about what is our role in Afghanistan.

I hope we are there for the right reasons....i cross my fingers....i really do,
because if not, as a canadian...i'd be ashamed.....

thank you for your offer for protection though, that was sweet of you....

I am gay so I probably won't have children, but if i did, i'd be very disapointed if they decided to join the army.

We are different people, but we don't have to hate each other for it...

I don't expect to change the world with my art....I just want to make people feel things....whether in love or anger.....I've done both.

 

[CDNBear]

Actually big bear....my brother has only told me that you and him have had many debates and very different point of views.....

Yes, this is true, on the trivial things, we don't see eye to eye, but I think on what really matters, we agree wholeheartedly on the same things.

Sometimes I can be overly sarcastic and bleak....that's just me......i am much more of an ass than my brother!

Then you and I have something in common, I'm much more of an ass then Sean is too, lol.

We need people like you and your children....who are brave for venturing upon these adventures.....so maybe we are both brave in very different ways....

Thank you, and yes, this too is true. I actually think your point of view and your artist outlet, helps us to try and be more honest. Keeping it real, as it were.

The army may deserve more credit than i like to admit
but I just hope that the military is REALLY used to good ends......but I can't help myself. Things smell fishy. I don't think we know everything about what is our role in Afghanistan.

Oddly enough Patrick, I have come to the same conclusion.

I hope we are there for the right reasons....i cross my fingers....i really do,
because if not, as a canadian...i'd be ashamed.....

As would I.

thank you for your offer for protection though, that was sweet of you....

It's just my nature Patrick. Always has been. I may very well be a aggressive and violent, but I've always tried to be so with a clean conscience, for a righteous fight.

I am gay so I probably won't have children, but if i did, i'd be very disapointed if they decided to join the army.

Dude, you can always adopt. And don't be disappointed, it's an honourable profession.

We are different people, but we don't have to hate each other for it...

I couldn't agree more.

I don't expect to change the world with my art....I just want to make people feel things....whether in love or anger.....I've done both.

Yes, yes you have.

 

[patty_lone]

I'd be happy if my children joined the army.....but not with what's happening these days....

I'm happy.....me and you....i feel we found our gray zone....

 

[CDNBear]

I'd be happy if my children joined the army.....but not with what's happening these days....

To be honest, I have my own apprehensions. But my feelings about honour, courage, loyalty and a deep sense of service to ones country, blind me to certain undeniable truths.

I'm happy.....me and you....i feel we found our gray zone....

You didn't make it hard Patrick, you're very much like your brother, very reasonable, passionate and open.

 

[EagleSmack]

but anyone can join the army....hahaha

No, they can't...hahaha

Could you? Your brother?

Many get washed out because they cannot deal with military life. Sure they can sign up. Does every hopeful doctor become a doctor? Does every hopeful engineer become and engineer? Nope.

Well hum yeah... I try to avoid getting hurt in general. Most people tend to do that. Are you saying YOU are brave enough to go stand in front of a mosque and make a

Although you didn't finish I think I get what you are trying to say.

First off, you and your bro are the performing artists. You are the ones trying to shock, teach, etc.

I couldn't get up in front of a group of 3rd graders and try to act. That just isn't me and I would most likely bumble my lines.

My point was you chose soft targets and those you wish to offend in reasonable safety. That is not bold nor is it original. You are not blazing any new trails. You obviously know this can be offensive to some, and you know they will most likely walk by.

However, muslims KILL homosexuals when they find them in muslim countries. They are jailed and executed. They are driven underground and have to suppress their feelings in public.

THAT is source for true art. The oppression of homosexuals by muslims. THAT would be bold!

Everybody has a right to view homosexuality as a perversion or whatever bad thing you want to call it. The problem lies when one starts expressing his disagreement by violent gestures. This isn't tolerated in Quebec, neither is it in Canada as a whole. My view is that we as a western society must be crystal clear about the fact that we will have zero tolerance towards hate crimes.

That is all well and good.

My brother as an artist does tackle gay issues because he is openly gay and it is something that touches him directly and while Quebec is a mostly great place for homosexuals, there are still too many teenagers being harassed and called ''faggots'' in high schools. If we can at least settle this issue among us, perhaps ''foreign'' cultures will understand once and for all that tolerance is truly our philosophy here in Canada.

The harrassment of gay folk is awful. Killing them is worse. Why attack folks who simply disagree with gay lifestyle? Attack folk who truly wish harm.

First of all, I'm not the ''performer'' here. But I've told my brother to read this thread and he will. And as much as I agree with you that it would be very bold and brave to stand up directly to those who would clearly want to hurt people like my brother, I'd rather he didn't because I love him dearly and the last thing I want is for him to get hurt.

I think you can understand that.

I can understand that and I am quite sure he wouldn't do that as he would most likely be hurt. However to say in so many words...

"Well I'd rather offend Catholics and dress up like an altar boy while my bro dresses as a priest because they won't counter me. Even though muslims kill and jail homosexuals I'd rather not want to offend them. I will remain silent against those who mean true harm."

All of his art and his message falls short at that point.

 

[patty_lone]

I was raised a catholic so why wouldn't i have the right to bash the catholic church.....

Is it bold.....maybe not that....but i hate them.....and i want them to know that...

As for the muslims...well yes...they are terrible and I hate what they do to gays too.....but here goes.....

i am 26 years old and have been pretty much broke for the last couple of years......i cant' travel and I do my art where it is possible for me to do so.....

I have spoken about hangings in some of my performances.....and you forget that in Montreal there is a muslim community and they are homophobes as well.....and I have shocked quite a few.....just by walking down the street and through my art......you can trust me I will be doing it again....

And as I was saying to bear......i don't expect to change the world.......i want to make people feel things
I don't care so much as WHO is my audience.....

But the more i spread my art around the mort chance i have to have an income out of it (and by the way my main thing is poster art.....performance is more for fun and to test myself and MY COURAGE as well..

SO CHILL OUT MAN.....ONE STEP AT A TIME FOR ME....I'M NOT READY TO GET SHOT YET.....GIVE ME THE CHANCE TO AT LEAST TURN 30.....LOL

but i hate the church......and it can go f*** itself up the bum....( BUT I'M SURE THEY'D LIKE THAT TOO MUCH)

 

[s_lone]

Just to clarify one little thing. Post #46 was written by Patty_lone, my brother. There was a confusion with logging in and out issues.

 

[wulfie68]

Ok everyone........I am the responsible one for all this debate......I am the artist.....and i apologize to the ones i have offended...even though it was ....sort of...the point.....

I am not a soldier....and never will be! That's my choice. I hate violence, I hate war and I hate guns and knives.

This is all reasonable. There is nothing wrong in trying to be thought provoking. There is nothing wrong in hating violence or its tools. At the same time there needs to be some awareness of where you get the rights to live as you choose, how they were purchased/granted to you. I'm not a soldier either (I was an army cadet in my teens and did think about it but never did) but my wife was, my mother was in the navy, and my grandfather fought in WW2, thus I do have a deep and abiding respect for the military and the people in uniform. At the heart of our society is and always has been a need to have someone to protect the peaceful from the violent. There are always barbarians at the gate, even today.

but it's hard to portray a politician at war.....because they never are....literally....
they are in their offices......drinking bottled water....wearing suits and ties......deciding the future of the soldiers.....

I can appreciate and respect a lot of the thoughts you put down but the above jumped out at me. I think this is the challenge to you as an artist, to make sure you are sending the message you want to send and hitting the target you want. If you'll pardon the metaphor, your performance was like a WMD sent in the direction of the military and its chain of command in the government. It did more collateral damage than damage to its intended target.

But i have to admit, you guys are bringing an interesting point of view....... i should try to portray that concept........the WAR IN THE OFFICE.........NOT ON THE BATTLE ZONE......

Bingo.

 

[s_lone]

but i hate the church......and it can go f*** itself up the bum....( BUT I'M SURE THEY'D LIKE THAT TOO MUCH)

Ok brother... You have to be careful about vulgarity here... Choose your words wisely and try to keep it civil...

That does not mean you can't express you anger...

 

[EagleSmack]

I am not saying you don't have the right to do these things. You obviously do.

And you hate them? Well then I guess you have no problems with people who hate you. You shouldn't. As you mock and hate them you must view anyone's mockery and hate as just and equal. I think both forms of hate are disgusting. Everything from that whacko Rev. Phelps to ACT-UP. Hate is hate.

Catholics are easy targets as I said. I certainly know why you don't offend muslims. They may not take your display as easy as would a Christian. You are afraid.

That is why your art falls flat. It's safe. It's unoriginal.

Ok brother... You have to be careful about vulgarity here... Choose your words wisely and try to keep it civil...

That does not mean you can't express you anger...

Let him speak. It is important that he does.

 

[karrie]

At first I thought you were merely a misguided artist, not truly aware of what your art was reflecting to your audience, but now I come to think you truly do know what it reflects, but you're trying to weasel away from it and excuse the more negative aspects somehow. You are a bigot trying to hide his bigotry unless it's popular. Bigotry against soldiers isn't very. Catholics, well, that's popular so you get loud about that one. You clearly have a lot of hate inside. Too bad. You'd seemed interesting.

 

[patty_lone]

But I use art to express my anger EagleSmack......so it's perfectly sane.....it's therapeutic for me....

Because i was raised in the church...it becomes a very personal matter for me....

but i can assure you that there are gay muslims fighting for their rights in "hanging countries"...and man do they kick ass.....but you know what it is their country, not mine.....it may be a lousy excuse.....but you can be sure that if Harper started to hang gays here i would be on the streets right now......right this instance.....but we've dealt with these issues.....

I don't want any country to hang or stone or kill gays.....but i think countries and their people should have the maturity to figure these things out by themselves.
AM I afraid.....yeah...so what....i fear aggression...big deal......but I wish that people who didn't ...like the army....would step up for gays in other countries......because that is their duty ....to save people from violence........

i'm just a 26 year old local artist here who doesn't have that much power...

it's fine if you don't like what i do.....it's fine if you think i'm not original.....and you can dislike me too....

it's an opinion....i've had others.....plenty of bad...plenty of good.....mock me.....i can laugh about myself....

can you?