Status of Native Canadians. Canada needs to discuss this.

[Scott Free]

@ Scott Free:

Lookup Crown Dependancies, see: Isle of Man, Bailwick of Jersey and Bailwick of Guerney (The Channel Islands)

OK, got it. The natives are considered property of the Queen. They are chattel. That is what being status means so they are already Crown Dependents.

 

[talloola]

Actually many of the First Nations ARE immigrants,

the Haudenosaunee Imigrated here from their land in New York. They are Immigrants just as sure as the Irish who left their ancestral homeland to settle in Canada, or the French of anyone else.

Sure we can split hairs, fine, first nations were native north americans, they had their
wars with each other, changed residences, won and lost battles, all of that is their own
business on the north american continent, where they are native, I'm speaking of the
years where the british bullied and bossed them and killed them, and pushed them
around, took their language away, forced them into english speaking homes, and schools,
etc.

@ Scott Free:

Lookup Crown Dependancies, see: Isle of Man, Bailwick of Jersey and Bailwick of Guerney (The Channel Islands

 

[Ron in Regina]

We're all out of Africa. We're all immigrants whether we arrived 15,000yrs ago, or 150yrs ago, or
15yrs ago...or last Tuesday. We're all here now. We all have to adapt to the hand we're dealt. Nobody
is leaving. We all have to get along for this to work. That's it.

 

[In Between Man]

I realize that natives are marginalized and treated poorly in Canada. But does this change the belief that all should be equal. What I am getting at is -- how can we make one law for all and drastically improve the lives of native Canadians?

Quoting talloola:

I live my life with a neverending place in my heart that is 'ashamed and guilty'

I never understood this. It's was completely out of our control. Our ancestors did a lot of horrible things.

Quoting Scott Free:

I think we should honour King George's decree (still law) and give them all the land west of the Rocky mountains. What we want we should pay for. If the indigenous people want to stay part of Canada great, if not, we'll have a new country.

I'm okay with them having their own nation if they so choose, (hope they would choose to remain Canadian)but west of the Rockies? I dunno........

 

[In Between Man]

I think what made me bring this subject up was the whole fishing rights issues. There are no salmon left. IMO, commercial fishing should be stopped. So, if you wanna go sport fishing on the Fraser; --white, native, asian or whatever, it should be the same rules. Either everybody pays the $38.00 for a non-tidal license. Or it's free for everybody. Do all the fishing you want. No native only areas. Just fishing for the fun of fishing(or food).

Also, the number one complaint about living on a reserve is "There's nothing to do." Maybe that's another issue to discuss. The idea of reserves is suppose to be a benefit for the natives. Yet, it doesn't seem to be. In fact, it seems to make things much worse. Maybe part of it is the separation. Or the belief among non-natives that they are separate, or consider themselves separate. What is the underlying issue regarding their poor status in Canada?

 

[Ron in Regina]

We're all out of Africa. We're all immigrants whether we arrived 15,000yrs ago, or 150yrs ago, or
15yrs ago...or last Tuesday. We're all here now. We all have to adapt to the hand we're dealt. Nobody
is leaving. We all have to get along for this to work. That's it.

Here I am quoting myself as nobody else took this and ran with it. OK...I'll try again...

Everyone's ancestors came from somewhere, and where both at times conquerors and conquered. Invaders
and displaced. It's ugly but it's true. In North America, in the last 300 years, the idea of treaties was used instead
of outright assimilation or genocide. Was that better than what the globe had done from time immemorial until
that time. I don't know. I didn't exist at that time and neither did anyone else currently alive. My ancestors arrived
in Canada (from England via Australia and then South Africa...long story for a different thread) after the treaties
where signed. My son is the fifth generation of my family paying our share for a deal struck before we arrived in
this country. It's just part of the cost of living here. I don't have a problem with it.

We can all breed with each other and produce viable offspring. We're all the same species. Whether your
ancestors arrived via the Bering Strait land bridge, or on reed boats from Morocco, or 10,000 years ago
onto the west coast of North America from Polynesia, or the west coast of South America from China, or
on a ship from Europe, or a jet from anywhere...to arrive in Canada...we're all immigrants. Nobody grew
out of the ground of the North American continent so lets drop the term immigrant out of this topic, as we're
all immigrants with a common ancestry. Going forward.

Due to a former occupation, I've been on over sixty different reservations. I've seen abject squalor and the extreme
opposite of that....many times on the same reservation. I've seen many things many of you on these forums might
not even fathom. For many years, I was the minority much of the time. On most reservations, there really isn't
anything for most people to do, and employment for only a small portion of the population. The reservation idea
is a horrible idea. Perhaps it 'might' have worked at one time but from what I've seen and in my opinion, it sure
doesn't work now. I don't know what the answers are, but I can tell you that reservations aren't it. If someone is
given a home and a paycheque to just stay out of the way, how can they ever expect to feel equal? If all you have
to do is to sit and watch the calendar, waiting for the next cheque day, how are you suppose to feel like you are a
part of society? Integration is a big part of the answer, but I don't have a clue how to get the ball rolling. Ideas???

 

[lena]

Ron I am replying to your whaaawha thing. what would get your attention

 

[Ron in Regina]

Ron I am replying to your whaaawha thing. what would get your attention

I try not to just tune out. I really do. It's just overdone in the media. If people would really
just talk about it and not just whine about it, that would be different. I work at trying not to
just tune out on this. Look at the posting immediately above yours.

 

[In Between Man]

Here I am quoting myself as nobody else took this and ran with it. OK...I'll try again...

Sorry 'bout that bro.

On most reservations, there really isn't
anything for most people to do, and employment for only a small portion of the population. The reservation idea
is a horrible idea. Perhaps it 'might' have worked at one time but from what I've seen and in my opinion, it sure
doesn't work now. I don't know what the answers are, but I can tell you that reservations aren't it. If someone is
given a home and a paycheque to just stay out of the way, how can they ever expect to feel equal? If all you have
to do is to sit and watch the calendar, waiting for the next cheque day, how are you suppose to feel like you are a
part of society? Integration is a big part of the answer, but I don't have a clue how to get the ball rolling. Ideas???

I agree. The only idea I can think of is: throw a huge sum of money at the problem. Give every status native a huge, huge, one time, final payment -"Sorry bout that bro, promise we won't do it again, cross our hearts, hope to die, stick a needle in our eye...." Then, abolish the reservations, the special fishing rights and whatever else. I know, it's a pretty pathetic idea. But what else would they accept, in trade for their special status? It's either that or huge swaths of land. Or both. Either way, if we could actually form better integration in this country for natives, it would be a better benefit for the whole nation.

 

[lena]

I hear ya Ron ...but how does one stop an idiots...its a loaded question...people tune out when its repeated over and over again. There is no answer to it really

 

[Ron in Regina]

Sorry 'bout that bro.



I agree. The only idea I can think of is: throw a huge sum of money at the problem. Give every status native a huge, huge, one time, final payment -"Sorry bout that bro, promise we won't do it again, cross our hearts, hope to die, stick a needle in our eye...." Then, abolish the reservations, the special fishing rights and whatever else. I know, it's a pretty pathetic idea. But what else would they accept, in trade for their special status? It's either that or huge swaths of land. Or both. Either way, if we could actually form better integration in this country for natives, it would be a better benefit for the whole nation.

Catch 22...you might be on the right track but with the cars in the wrong order....why would
anyone ever give up their treaty rights unless it was for something bigger/better...even if the current
system is doomed to fail and is a slow motion train wreck. Throwing huge sums of money at the
issue hasn't worked in the past and isn't working in the present, so I doubt very much that's the
future answer either. For those that choose to spend another generation on the reservation (who
happen to not be friends or family of the chief so most likely not having one of the few jobs), you
can't take that away from them if they don't want to do anything but sit and wait.

I have nothing but respect for someone who is willing to walk away from the reservation to get a
life for themselves and their kids in the city where there are opportunities and jobs and alternate
housing and things for their kids to do. Not everyone will be willing to take that step though.

 

[Ron in Regina]

I hear ya Ron ...but how does one stop an idiots...its a loaded question...people tune out when its repeated over and over again. There is no answer to it really

Get ride of those on both sides of the issue that are just "broken records" and can
do nothing but repeat themselves. The closed minds on both sides stuck in the
rhetoric...and it goes way up. Mr. Joseph in the FSIN make me tune out faster than
anyone on this issue as I can tell you almost word for word what he's going to say
before he say's it. Regardless of what he's talking about, it's the white mans fault.
Hugh? That's insane and he's a role model for many. There are opposites on the other
side of the issue and the polarized finger pointing is just better for sound bites in the
media instead of rational discussions leading to solutions without roadblocks and B.S.

 

[Zzarchov]

OK, got it. The natives are considered property of the Queen. They are chattel. That is what being status means so they are already Crown Dependents.

Uhm.... No...where the Hell did you get that Idea that that is what a Crown Dependancy is.

A crown dependancy means its not a sovereign nation, but its not part of Canada. It is defactor Sovereign except that the host government (in our case it would be a Canadian Crown Dependancy) can pass legislation that effects them.

Much the same as Britain used to do to us.

Seriously Scott Free, read up on things before making ludicrous statements. If you don't feel like doing the research work, fine, but then don't shoot your mouth off as if you have. There is no shame in not knowing EVERYTHING.

 

[Zzarchov]

Actually many of the First Nations ARE immigrants,

the Haudenosaunee Imigrated here from their land in New York. They are Immigrants just as sure as the Irish who left their ancestral homeland to settle in Canada, or the French of anyone else.

Sure we can split hairs, fine, first nations were native north americans, they had their
wars with each other, changed residences, won and lost battles, all of that is their own
business on the north american continent, where they are native, I'm speaking of the
years where the british bullied and bossed them and killed them, and pushed them
around, took their language away, forced them into english speaking homes, and schools,
etc.

@ Scott Free:

Lookup Crown Dependancies, see: Isle of Man, Bailwick of Jersey and Bailwick of Guerney (The Channel Islands

Thats not splitting hairs though, they moved to Canada AFTER the British were here.

Think of it this way, if Irish People moved to Scotland when they were both run by England.

Does that mean the Irish are now "Native Scottish" because they were a native group oppressed by the English in the same way the Scottish were a native group oppressed by the English?

They are immigrants and have their own legal issues seperate from any moral "First Nations" issues that other groups have. They had their own nations, meaning they emmigrated and colonized too.

 

[Scott Free]

Uhm.... No...where the Hell did you get that Idea that that is what a Crown Dependancy [sic] is.

<snip - edited for content>

"The Crown Dependencies are possessions of The Crown in Right of the United Kingdom,..."

 

[Risus]

If natives want change then they must work the system for that change.

For years natives have been able to go to universities for free because they were promised this in their treaties.

The natives became doctors, lawyers, engineers, business execs and so on.

They have what it takes to create change.

A lot of natives are entering municipal, provincial, and federal politics and they are becoming a driving force in this country.

But like any society they got their radicals that like to close down highways and rail lines.

If you look at the Chinese and the East Indians they skip the welfare office and go directly into their communities and go into businesses or get any type of jobs so they can build their wealth so that they can make positive changes.

In Toronto there are five areas that could be called Chinatown. These areas are not poor areas but higher classed communities.

East Indians live in a town just outside of Toronto called Brampton.

As Prime Minister Harper said these are nations within a nation.

The natives can do the same.

The natives are moving in the right direction by setting up businesses on their land like the highly successful casinos, which is bringing in hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The natives have to expand and set up other businesses and create more wealth.

In this society money talk, which means if you got wealth, people will listen.

Why would they want to things?? They get money handed to them hand over fist, don't pay taxes, don't need fishing or hunting licences etc etc.

And regarding the casinos: that money is staying with a select few, the general population doesn't see a penny...

 

[Scott Free]

The Royal Proclamation of 1763 issued by King George.

I can't seem to copy/past from the page so the link will have to do. It clearly shows how we encroached on their territory and took their land away despite a very clear cut proclamation proclaiming that only the king had such a right and that he would purchase the land. This proclamation has been instrumental in many of our laws and is absolutely still valid. It is even referenced in the constitution act of 1982.

Unless we wish to be like the early ancestors and just rob native people of their land we must pay up! Both for land we have already taken and land we may want. It is expensive but it only gets more so as we let every year slips by. Time is not going to let us dodge our obligations - or more rightly; it shouldn't.

Those who would claim they are not the ones oppressing the native people have an invalid argument. Until such time as our government starts living up to its legal and financial obligations to native people (an unconquered people too I might add) we are all exactly those oppressive SOBs that illegaly took the land in the first place.

 

[Avro]

I wish that natives would quit whining and go out and get jobs like everyone else.

 

[Risus]

Exactly. You give them an inch and they want a foot. It never ends.

 

[Zzarchov]

<snip - edited for content>

"The Crown Dependencies are possessions of The Crown in Right of the United Kingdom,..."

Yes...in the same way that Newfoundland is a possession of Canada. You need to understand what terms like that mean on a political level, they are not chattel slaves.