Soldiers are not automatically heroes

[MikeyDB]

We find ourselves in a terrible situation. A situation that any review of history would shed light upon. But once again, the story being told by our government is the story being fed to the American people. Afghanistan is a nation of people bound together under a tribal organizing social system. A system that employs religious oppression against women and defines itself on a nearly daily basis predicated on which opium field is still affording which warlord his "Taliban sanction".... The people of Afghanistan have watched as various nations occupied their land and attempted to use their villages and fields as the "virtual killing fields" of national interests far from the seats of governments that fund the mayhem and carnage. Thomaska is more correct that he's even likely to admit when he talks about the e-nature of protest when it comes to Canadian participation in the Afghanistan mess.

Americans and certainly no Canadian would like the action taking place in Afghanistan to be the situation in their nation...so it's far more acceptable to employ the e-war of virtual mayhem in nations like Afghanistan and Iraq. America nor Canada has any memory of the slaughter of millions and the attendant destruction of much of Europe as do Europeans and a few remaining veterans of humankinds last global spasm. Since 9/11 when there was a brief glimpse of the nature of warfare on the soil of America, the attitude has been reinforced that it's perfectly OK for the people of other nations to have their country bombed to ruins, their children and future destroyed in the name of preserving the lovely picturesque homeland that is sending tanks planes and missiles into their countryside.

While it makes for "good movies" and sells memoirs and books, the aftermath of devastation reaches far into the future in the lands where the interests of the distant consumer populations who have determined that wars are best fought at arms length to preserve the myth of prosperity for all.....

There's a never-ending noise out of the many discussion forums throughout the Internet when it comes to Iraq and Afghanistan, and the vast majority of that noise is from people who've never experienced anything like what's happening in those places. And that's exactly why the statements of those critical of anyone finding fault with a policy of carnage-at-a-distance are so comfortable in pointing the self-righteous finger.

 

[jimshort19]

Our soldiers are heros of a sort the day they don the uniform. They all take risks that we do not, and they do it willingly. They are all volunteers. Their cause is ours, and it is just.

Wearing red seemed like only manipulation to me, until I learned from a soldier that it was appreciated. We do have a role in morale. Wearing red and questioning the war is not a contradiction. We should all do both. Red is not pro-war. Red is pro-hero, and this is richly justified.

 

[MikeyDB]

"No one starts a war-or rather, no one in his senses ought to do so-without first being clear in his mind what he intends to achieve by that war and how he intends to conduct it."
CARL VON CLAUSEWITZ

Canada has responded albeit with legitimate doubts, to its commitment to NATO policy. The question becomes mired in further doubt when the particular dynamics of the reasons behind the Canadian involvement in Afghanistan are rigorously examined. Afghanistan as a national entity did not invade America. While the suicide attack on the World Trade Center will remain an act of infamy and some would suggest cowardice, for all time, any student of Von Clausewitz would tell you that this is and will remain the nature of warfare into the future if humankind has any hope of surviving.

Funding for the training and establishment of the cells responsible for that dark September day came from money received by the Saudi government from the people who suffered most from this action. While President Bush has declared that nations that harbor terrorists will be adjudicated as equally guilty as those who actualize the attack, no actions of any kind have been taken against either Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, the backdoor support mechanism of the Taliban and Al Queada.

As is patently obvious from the current mess in Iraq, the United States had seriously underestimated the task it faced. Similarly, there is no plan and there is no specific goal that can be identified by so loose a definition as a “war on terrorism”. We have watched as mounting evidence of the wrong-headedness of the pre-Iraq invasion foment unravelled under the light of revealed misdirection and exaggeration. Enormous failures in intelligence gathering, a crippled communications system with territoriality seriously impeding the dissemination of critical data.

Afghanistan is a pawn in the failed policies of the American government. A government that continues to feed the propaganda of its support for the Pakistani military junta that American government calls its “ally” while in possession of intelligence information that clearly establishes that the Taliban receive support through this very same “ally.”

Canadian involvement in Afghanistan fails every measure of sound tactical and strategic planning. Canada is involved in Afghanistan not because America was attacked by a foreign power, but because the manikins of office that Canadians seem so pleased to call “government” are incapable and ignorant. Canadian blood is being shed in Afghanistan, not with the clarity of understanding the consequences of not acting, but in a sycophantic genuflection to our American masters standing behind the gas pumps.

Our military is involved in a wrong-headed war, led by poorly educated and poorly informed executive staff on the basis of a corrupt and illegitimate excuse proffered by the United States who maintains its support for the Pakistani government while whining about terrorist states and the “rule of law”. Alternatives to these actions in both Afghanistan and Iraq were never considered. They weren’t considered because the machinery of the military industrial complex has the cajones of the American and Canadian government establishments in a vice.

“Belief” that your war is just and your purpose is clear is insufficient to warrant respect for the politically disingenuous and corrupt who send young men and women into harms way for no better reason than that it’s our responsibility to live up to our NATO commitments. Does it make sense that while Canada and Canadians fly the “responsibility to our commitments” flag that we’re partnered with the United States of America who have reneged on not only domestic trade policies but conventions and rules of war by embracing torture and kidnapping as “appropriate”?

There is no honor in fighting an unjust war and although we might like to think that our service folk are “heroes” for answering the call of this government, they are in fact cannon fodder and disposable commodities in the minds of our inept and corrupt governments.

 

[Kreskin]

So everyone is expected to sit on their hands while terrorists fly commercial planes into buildings?

Whether or not you think the war is justified it is a sad commentary to say you don't support those who are serving your country. As Thomaska said, it's easy to type e-commentaries and pretend to have all the answers.

If this were WWI would you have supported the efforts at Vimy Ridge? We weren't attacked so I doubt you would have. If you had and it wasn't as effective as it was, would you have abruptly changed your mind and used a quill pen and paper for potshots at soldiers and government?

Some people believe everything in the world must be achieved without risk. In reality risk is what gets rewarded. To be under the impression that freedom, world peace, and propserity will only come to those countries who sit behind keyboards and tell their leaders to do nothing is only lying to oneself. Nothing in this world gets handed over on a silver platter. If our country never took a chance with anything we'd never have a chance with anything, period.

 

[jimshort19]

Mikeydb, "Alternatives ...were never considered. They weren’t considered because the machinery of the military industrial complex has the cajones of the American and Canadian government establishments in a vice."

The Machine does it again. Got our government establishment cajones in a vice. We rushed to war without our cajones. This is half hogwash, and not the same argument that you make about our commitment to NATO (and the UN?) unless you propose that NATO and the UN are cover operations for the Machine.

Mikey, " our...“heroes” are...cannon fodder and disposable commodities in the minds of our inept and corrupt governments."

Canadian armed service personnel are heros because they make themselves disposable cannon fodder for the cause. But the briefest review of such enemies as we seriously engage with our cannon fodder will prove that our cannon fodder is better than theirs. Heros or cannon fodder, they are the best. As for our government, the briefest review of the Taliban will prove that our government is better as well. This thing we try to do, there is no guarantee of success this time out, and there rarely is in modern warfare. You say we will fail, and our cause is murder and torture. I say we will win, but maybe not this way, this time. The feedback from the front indicates that morale is holding despite heavy casualties. When the morale fails, we've lost. Until it does, we have options. This is a sobering responsibility for every parliamentarian and military leader. I doubt that they are under a lack of pressure but the Machine does not exist.

 

[Gonzo]

The war in Afghanistan is not the same as WW1 or WW2. You cannot draw comparisons.

 

[jimshort19]

CDNbear, "I have just grown tired of seeing and readingthe same old opposition to supporting our Troops, I'll just cut and paste this continuously, in the hopes that one day, someone that doesn't get it now, will."

Well, you are not tired then, your just working smarter, not harder.

Your proposition that our troops are fighting for Canadians right to freedom of speech, among other things, will sound far fetched to many. But they fight for what we are, and we are human beings, and we are the same as the Afghans. I am you and you are me and we are all together. Indeed, they fight for oure very identity, and that we should fail to support them, to believe in them, and to respect them is a betrayal of the best of ourselves. Without their kind, we are cowardly scum.

 

[CDNBear]

The war in Afghanistan is not the same as WW1 or WW2. You cannot draw comparisons.

Why not?

It doesn't seem that much of a leap for some to make the leap to calling my Brothers and Sisters...invaders, terrorists, babykillers...

Not mention the ever insane leap of calling our PM a 'nazi', a US lap dog, Bush's bitch, and so on.

So leaps seem more reasoned then others IMHO. The ones I've exampled, seem insane to me, but not to some.

We're all free to have those differing opinions, because somewhere, at sometime, a Soldier just did his job.

Well, you are not tired then, your just working smarter, not harder.

Thanx.

Your proposition that our troops are fighting for Canadians right to freedom of speech, among other things, will sound far fetched to many. But they fight for what we are, and we are human beings, and we are the same as the Afghans. I am you and you are me and we are all together. Indeed, they fight for oure very identity, and that we should fail to support them, to believe in them, and to respect them is a betrayal of the best of ourselves. Without their kind, we are cowardly scum.

I would agree.

 

[Kreskin]

The war in Afghanistan is not the same as WW1 or WW2. You cannot draw comparisons.

That's right. WW's I and II were other people's problems. Europe's. This one was North America's. If the internet had been around back then it would be a continuous rant of "military induistrial complex" etal. And losing 3500 troops in one operation would've called for government heads, not to mention why the money wasn't spent on more safe injection sites and the dismantling of our monetary system.

 

[darkbeaver]

Our soldiers are heros of a sort the day they don the uniform. They all take risks that we do not, and they do it willingly. They are all volunteers. Their cause is ours, and it is just.

Wearing red seemed like only manipulation to me, until I learned from a soldier that it was appreciated. We do have a role in morale. Wearing red and questioning the war is not a contradiction. We should all do both. Red is not pro-war. Red is pro-hero, and this is richly justified.

And what are we to think of the thousands upon thousands of dead men women and children who die because of our heros engagement from starvation and bombs and disease are they heros to by virtue of death in thier own homes? Or are they just colateral damage innocently caused by the fog of war. A hero, and there are few , saves lives, resists injustice and speaks truth to power, a dead soldier is a dead citizen bilked of his life by a power that spends lives like pennies.Wearing of the red is stupid popularization of death and destruction, it does nothing but perpetuate the crime and make it possible for more to die needlessly in a war that has no end. It is impossible to win, the only survivors will be poppy plants which again this year will exceed last years crop, all to feed the habits of addicts in our cities, and the money stuffs the vaults of the rich pricks who send our soldiers to die for them.

 

[jimshort19]

Kreskin, "If our country never took a chance with anything we'd never have a chance with anything, period."

Right on. You've been to planet Earth, and took it well, I can tell. The gurantees that these poor suckers were born with have all expired. They're mad as hell and entirely ineffectual. But they sure can whine.

 

[Avro]

What is the media's response when a soldier dies in Afghanistan? "They are heroes". Why do they do this? Would it be because they don't want to turn Canadians against the war? No, we must support our troops! Whatever that means. Let me say this. You are not a hero if you go to a war and get killed. That is not heroic! You are a hero if you save someone’s life. But for whatever reason, the media dubs every soldier who dies a hero. This is a terrible thing because it puts our soldiers at further risk. Canadians in turn don’t question the war and ask if we should be there at all. All this nonsense about wearing red on Friday and the whole “support our troops” propaganda is getting our soldiers killed because we aren’t demanding that our troops are brought home. Instead of a newspaper headline that says “He was a hero” it should read “Was it worth it?”[/font]

You're forgetting one thing, the vast majority of the troops want to be there to fight against what happened on 9/11 and help the people of Afghanistan. Sometimes, no matter how painful it is we must stand against those who want to hurt us, this is one of those times and if guys like you had their way Hitler would have one the war.

I don't wear red on Friday because it's dumb, I do however attend remembrance day services and have gone to the national memorial the last two years for that service because that is the time to honor our HERO'S.

I have issues with the conflict but they are mostly about Canada doing most of the gritty work while other NATO nations stand by and watch but I will never consider a Canadian death a waste, you may as well call the troops stupid for being there.

Seriously, you should be ashamed of yourself for thinking such things.

 

[YoungJoonKim]

LOL I am watching this Ad right now!
"HelpDistress?
"Join Us"
"WWW.FORCES.CA"

lol...

 

[jimshort19]

Avro, "Seriously, you should be ashamed of yourself for thinking such things."

How refreshing judgmental. Called it as 'e saw it. How refreshingly revealing. Laid the guilt on. How refreshingly moralistic. Where's the gobbldegook? You got no childish angst or what? Where is the whining?

 

[karrie]

A typical Canadian, from what I've seen conversing over coffee and such, supports what our troops are doing in Afghanistan. They understand why we're there, they understand it's important. They understand that the soldiers are proud of what they're doing and their deaths are mourned without putting overall support for this war at risk.

Would a paper asking 'was his death worth it?' be unsupportive of the troops? Personally, I don't feel it would be. I feel it places much more worth on the soldiers than using them to muster support for the war does.

Would a re-examination of the issue that brought us there be of a real risk in a just war? I don't feel it would be. I think when it comes to Afghanistan, they'd come to the same conclusion over and over again.

Would that sort of change of language and thinking help keep soldiers from dying one after another in unjust wars with no public support? It just might. And is that 'unsupportive' of them? Not necessarily. Sometimes, they're the ones trying to say they don't want to be there, it's not just.

 

[Avro]

Avro, "Seriously, you should be ashamed of yourself for thinking such things."

How refreshing judgmental. Called it as 'e saw it. How refreshingly revealing. Laid the guilt on. How refreshingly moralistic. Where's the gobbldegook? You got no childish angst or what? Where is the whining?

How refreshingly devoid of English.

 

[jimshort19]

Now the whining. Avro, you nolike my English? Avro, why you quote somebody else and say it me? I no say that Avro. I quote somebody else and say only you good fella, no whiner. I no whine. But Avro, now you start whining. I gotta lots of English, but it's no good.

 

[darkbeaver]

That's right. WW's I and II were other people's problems. Europe's. This one was North America's. If the internet had been around back then it would be a continuous rant of "military induistrial complex" etal. And losing 3500 troops in one operation would've called for government heads, not to mention why the money wasn't spent on more safe injection sites and the dismantling of our monetary system.

Both world wars were other peoples oportunity, not a problem at all really.