So You Think You Know Whats Really Going On In Iraq?

[no1important]

Re: RE: So You Think You Know Whats Really Going On In Iraq?

Well folks the real immorality here is the one none of you ever bother to face.

No one gives a damn about giving Iraq a new real chance.

You will be saying the same thing in ten years. Remember Vietnam? This will be worse. "W" will cause more instability in the region. He will be fighting more than one country over there if he does not wise up soon. Many many people are just so sick and tired of the never ending American interferrence world wide.

 

[jimmoyer]

We picked the wrong side in Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh asked Woodrow Wilson at the Versaille Peace treaty of World War One for his country.

By the way the Kurds in Northern Iraq, western Turkey,Syria and Iran asked to have a country of Kurdistan at the Versaille Peace Treaty.

Interesting how most of the world's borders were drawn not after WWII but after WW1.

And you know what?

No one gives a damn about giving Iraq a new chance.

You got such good reasons not to help.

It gets you off the hook.

 

[Twila]

RE: So You Think You Know

Interesting how most of the world's borders were drawn not after WWII but after WW1.

Very interesting. Almost as interesting in the debt Germany had to repay to the world..........and couldn't.....leaving room for who to come to power? ah yes. Those who in 1930 thought it was Germany's savoir. Who was exchanging money with the Nazi's in WWII?

The borders are redrawn. Britian was head of the table. Who else was sitting at that table?


Science believes in absolute truths. If during trials they get the same ending they believe the beginning to be the truth......How many gov't agencies causing instabilities in foreign countries will it take for the World to believe the truths I wonder?

 

[Reverend Blair]

The borders are redrawn. Britian was head of the table. Who else was sitting at that table?

Mostly the US, France and Britain did the divvying up, Twila. Canada was there though...mostly as a courtesy since so many of our boys were sent to their deaths by British commanders.

The most interesting thing about WWI is that it marks the beginning of oil becoming a global strategic commodity. That's why the Middle East was split up the way it was...so Britain and France could split up the oil.

If you get a chance, read a book called Paris 1919. It's about the divvying. McQuaig covers a lot of it in It's the Crude, Dude too.

 

[jimmoyer]

You know it's interesting that with all this bad history about colonial imperialism at the Versaille Peace Treaty of WWI, there has arisen a good body of work by foreign policy analysts concerning Failed States.

That in itself is a whole other debate, again.

But back to the idea of this thread, You think you know what's going on in Iraq?

When you hold a hammer in your hand you look for the nail, and when you hold an anti-American hatred you will see all those nails to hit, and you will rightfully hit those nails, but it makes you NOT look for other things going on this world.

For example it makes you miss the fact that the whole world has found excuses (even if legitimate) not to help this new country.

It makes everyone who has the habitual habit of looking for American abuses --- and there is plenty of that--- to ignore the following:

1. Isn't it amazing that the majority of Shi-ites led by the revered Sistani have had the forebearance to hold back from civil war with the Sunnis?

A lot of former Bathist Sunnis insurgents have destroyed Shiite mosques, have killed many brave Iraqi policemen.

And still even their leadership is trying to involve the Sunni people into the parliament.

Amazing.

But we're all focused elsewhere, not watching what might surprise all criticism and predictions.


2. Isn't it amazing how many men and women braved the threats to vote?

Was that not a surprise to all the critics?

Did the critics forget that natural rights are inalienable and universal to all mankind even if they have a 2000 year history of ethnic and religious hatreds?

Wasn't it "soft bigotry" to say that the middle east is not suited for some democracy?

3. With Saddam still in power, I'm not sure you would see all these developments like ripples in a pond develop in Lebanon, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Libya....

For those long used to thinking one way, it is highly understandable that they will not see these developments.

Or, they will find other rationales as to why.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: So You Think You Know

Iraq is in the midst of a civil war, Jim...something all us alleged American haters predicted would happen. The elected government, vetted by George Bush, is completely ineffectual.

The US has backed the Saudi and Kuwaiti governments in opposing real democratic reforms. Libya has been been trying to narmalize relations for years, mostly by working with the Europeans. Lebanon had nothing to do with the US.

Quit trying to take credit for things that had nothing to do with you and own up to your war crimes, crimes against humanity, and backing of undemocratic governments.

 

[jimmoyer]

Lebanon:

You think those people would be brave enough to peacefully kick out the Syrians with the American Army of Outrage camped nearby?

You think Syria would have backed out of Lebanon on its own without the American bastards in Iraq and with Saddam, a fellow Baathist, no longer in power?

Hmmm....I guess you'd rather not see it that way.

LIBYA

You think Quaddafy gave up the secret of his nuclear ghost if it had not been for Americans involved in Afghanistan and Pakistan uncovering the Pakistani Godfather of nuclear bomb exports ?

You think that Quaddafy did not expose publicly his nuclear weapons research and involvement ONLY because of years (YEARS) of European negotiation?

Suddenly after years, Quaddafy sees the light?

KUWAIT:

Women being allowed to vote? The entire Arab world watched AL JAZEERA show Afghani women going to vote.

Amazing. Psychology?

Why afghani women and not us?

SAUDI ARABIA

The municipal elections, meaningless as they are, was a first important step. The elite knows they made a bargain with the Wahabi fundamentalist in a power structure arrangement, and now they know that was a bargain with the devil.

They feel the pressure from the US not to finance the hate anymore. Live in this country and watch all the Saudi commercials trying to teach us pathetic watchers of cable news that the Saudis are our friends and they are making progress.


Ripples in the pond don't wash upon all these shores?

America is paying a high price, more than you comprehend.

You stay home and tut tut all of this.

You can keep your status quo prior to Saddam's removal.
It was such a better world then.

 

[Reverend Blair]

You think those people would be brave enough to peacefully kick out the Syrians with the American Army of Outrage camped nearby?

Yes. In fact several of them, from both sides of the protest, said that the one thing they didn't want was US interference in their affairs.

You think that Quaddafy did not expose publicly his nuclear weapons research and involvement ONLY because of years (YEARS) of European negotiation?

Suddenly after years, Quaddafy sees the light?

Yes. He has had absolutely no history of responding positively to threats.

Women being allowed to vote? The entire Arab world watched AL JAZEERA show Afghani women going to vote.

Meanwhile your government props up a regime that is extremely undemocratic. You even help with intelligence on those subversives working in the underground democratic movement, pretending they are terrorists instead of people trying to gain full democratic rights.

The feel the pressure from the US not to finance the hate anymore. Live in this country and watch all the Saudi commercials trying to teach us pathetic watchers of cable news that the Saudis are our friends and they are making progress.

See above.

You can also apply that to Egypt, the Stans up there in central Asia (how the hell can you support a man who outlawed pool and boils people alive?) and dozens of other countries. Look at you new friend Pakistan, for instance. And how the hell did Sudan become your friend in the war on terror?

 

[jimmoyer]

Lebanon:

Of course they didn't want American influence.
But the influence was there next door, wasn't it?
And there was influence in the back doors of foreign policy too. The Lebanese people took the first step.
But there was a lot of watchers and helpers and talk of consequences if Syria did not back down.

Believe me, the Syrians searched out secretly their options while noticing an America Army sits next door.

Your naivete serves your bias.


LIBYA.

That's a laugher that Quaddafy does not respond to threats. That's just too much spin supporting your bias, and lacks any sense of psychology.

Even the Euros used carrot and stick (read threats) threatened economic sanctions with no teeth.

Somehow none of these things happened during your precious Saddam status quo.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: So You Think You Know

Jim...your country has accomplished nothing but the deaths of thousands of innocents. Your policies are inherently anti-democratic.

 

[jimmoyer]

Actually your policies of doing nothing accomplish much the same thing.

Your bias towards changing a crappy status quo by doing nothing allow mass graves to stretch from Serbia to 10 square miles of greater Baghdad.

I suppose if you watch a mugger you would consider it is none of your business.

IF America had pushed off the Chinese in the Korean peninsula you would not see a separate Korea today with an idiot starving his people and exporting horror.

Do nothing.

Watch the movie.

And stay comfortable.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: So You Think You Know

Your policies are violent, unfair, self-serving, greedy, and often illegal. The biggest difference between the US and the Roman Empire is that at least the Romans imporved the infrastructure of the places they invaded. The US just blows the infrastructure up.

 

[jimmoyer]

No, the rest of the World sells to USAID a generator or two with Americans on the line to install it.

The rest of the world sells pipe fittings with American lives to install it.

And then who blows it up?

The rest of the world is content to leave Saddam in power and the Iraqi citizens know it.

They also know none of their neighbors mean well either.

Even the older Palestinians shake their heads in disgust at the rest of the world while they watch their own teenagers egotistically brandish an AK47 out their doorstep. They don't like Israel or America either.

But they know no one, including you, Reverend Blair, has any sense.

Meanwhile you are complicit in another teenager in a foreign land wishing to kill themselves unknowingly in the service of heartless manipulators who use the current zeitgeist to accomplish their own ends.


The world is not helping.

But it sure sits on its high horse, like a movie critic.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Yeah you're right Jim, Bush is a tremendous leader, and one hell of a guy...I think I'll explore the requirements for gaining citizenship in your great country, so that come election time, I can vote for the next Bush-type installment...God Bless America!!!

[/straight face] :lol:

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: So You Think You Know

Jingo a supporter of policy favouring war: a blustering patriot.

 

[jimmoyer]

I'm no patriot. I consider Bolton UNnecessary to the UN.
I'm far from a big Bush fan. When I hear that guy speak I find my sphincter tightening up especially as he searches for a word.

But everything I've thrown at you has sincere value and some thought of my own to back it up.

I think both of you know as little about the issues of the Middle East as you believe Americans know as little.

I believe that ignorance and ideology rule the minds of many citizens of this world and there is rarely to be found any original thinking.

I've been reading about Canadian and German internal politics and discovered how bizarre that both are arguing about very similar issues of economics that bedevil the United States.

We are amazingly much more alike than we are on our differences.

Exploring that is intensely more interesting.


Probably more than 12 million Americans (120 million voted in the last election) know more about the world than the rest of the world realizes. Every country has 10 percent minimum of intelligence. The rest just try to live their lives and don't give a damn what we pontificate about.

I have a friend in Winchester Virginia who has contracted the BBC to go to a local redneck bar because it's what the BBC expects to see. My friend knows it doesn't pay to go one block away and show England the bars in town that are far more representative.

The world will pay for what it wants to see.
My local friend knows this about you and knows about your world.

I'll even give you Reverend Blair for some thoughtful analysis to your own Canadian internal politics. I'm learning something.

But I suspect you, Reverend Blair and Vanni Fucci are too habitual in your usual thinking and deeply not sincere enough to challenge your own pre-conceived beliefs. In other words, the heart of being as predictable as you both are should be a big clue.

You're both part of the herd of the world and you think you are the vanguard?

I find you both clever, intelligent, well read but psychologically naive when it comes to these major issues of the Middle East.

I know I could talk to you both about many other issues and have wide agreement and progress on the matter but I truly discern a huge blind spot in your thinking where we've debated hard.

You don't know me well enough and I don't know you, but I can assure you I am well acquainted with the arguments that rightfully condemn American policy.

I have enjoyed your interest.

And thank you for corresponding with me.

 

[peapod]

Man, that was weird 8O

 

[jimmoyer]

It's weird because....

fill in the blank, peapod...

Be brave.

 

[peapod]

You want a toe? I can get you a toe. Believe me. There are ways, Dude. You don't want to know about it, believe me. Hell, I can get you a toe by 3 o'clock this afternoon. With nail polish."

 

[jimmoyer]

LOL !!

I think I like you Peapod.