Sikhs Allowed To Carry Kirpan (knives) To Olympic Events

[SirJosephPorter]

SJPNo I have not gone off on a tangent - ever thing regarding violence within the community is relevant - you are trying to restrict it - No where did I describe as all Sikhs - you interpreted it that way - Regardless - the pints that I brought forward are all relevant - Last point - many Sikhs still celebrate those that perpetrated Murder as role models - Martyrs for the cause -

Sorry Goober, but I refuse to be side tracked. The thread is about the Olympic Committee’s policy towards kirpan and that is all I am going got discuss. If you want to discuss what a bad lot Sikhs are, post a separate thread and I will be happy to discuss that with you.

I don’t want his thread to become a Sikh bashing thread. We are discussing the kirpan policy here.

Anyway, bye for now.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

Religion has nothing to do with it. People are getting sidetracked.

A gun is deemed a dangerous weapon so the average citizen can't carry one around in his coat pocket. The kirpan was deemed a dangerous weapon so the average citizen couldn't carry it around. If, as the vocal Sikh community (along with their supporters) claim, the kirpan is not dangerous then every Canadian should be allowed to carry one or a reasonable facsimile. Currently, according to Canadian law, the kirpan is not dangerous weapon in the hands of a Sikh but it is in my hands and that is discriminatory any which way you cut it. If we used that same logic eleswhere it wouldn't fly. What if we said that Aboriginals couldn't buy gasoline because they might sniff it? I can hear the howls already.

As I said before, those that support discrimination based on religion should be able to point out where it's been successful before.

I agree. Politics trumps reality. A knife is suddenly not dangerous in the hands of a Sikh, but it is in the hands of a non-Sikh. A knife, called a kirpan in the hands of a Sikh, is defined as a religious symbol, not a weapon. Non-religious Joe Blow carries a knife, it is a weapon. In Canada, religion can make a knife, not a weapon. Why isn't it good enough to carry a picture of a kirpan instead?

Less religion makes a better country.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

And when was the majority (by majority, I assume you mean Christians) denied any rights? Majority don’t carry any knife (nor are allowed to) because it is not a religious icon to them. But I am not aware that the majority is denied any rights, the rights they are entitled to under the Charter.

As to Sikh pushing for their rights, they have the right to do that under the Charter. Charter cases have upheld Sikhs’ right to wear a turban for instance (I don’t know if there has been any case involving the kirpan).

Pluralistic society in Canada is of recent origin (a few decades at most) so it is understandable that some member of the majority community may be uncomfortable as to how a pluralistic society works. It will take time to sort out the kinks, to decide who is entitled to what rights etc.

What is required in the process is understanding, reasonableness on all sides, not a take it or leave it attitude on the part of the majority. Understanding, willingness to work together like it was displayed by the New York school system when it came to wearing the kirpan (as pointed out by ironsides on this thread).

To me, a pluralistic society means different kinds of people live together, but they don't get any additional rights enshrined in law. No way, forget it. Everyone is equal and treated the same. Treating all people equally in society has has rarely been done in history and for us to give one group extra rights over another is Aisatic backsliding and oriental despotism.

These Sikhs come from a traditional, archaic, feudal, medieval caste society, they have to fight, literally go to war, not to be treated like dirt in India. People in Indian do not believe in equality for all Indians, wake up. Some groups go for superiority and they achieve it. Even class ridden England doesn't believe in equality for all. India is much worse. Why import this nonsense?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I agree. Politics trumps reality. A knife is suddenly not dangerous in the hands of a Sikh, but it is in the hands of a non-Sikh. A knife, called a kirpan in the hands of a Sikh, is defined as a religious symbol, not a weapon. Non-religious Joe Blow carries a knife, it is a weapon. In Canada, religion can make a knife, not a weapon. Why isn't it good enough to carry a picture of a kirpan instead?

Less religion makes a better country.

That is how freedom of religion works, dumpthemonarchy.

Less religion makes a better country.

Now here I agree with you.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

These Sikhs come from a traditional, archaic, feudal, medieval caste society, they have to fight, literally go to war, not to be treated like dirt in India. People in Indian do not believe in equality for all Indians, wake up. Some groups go for superiority and they achieve it. Even class ridden England doesn't believe in equality for all. India is much worse. Why import this nonsense?

I don’t think we are importing anything from India. What we are doing is trying to make a reasonable effort to accommodate the beliefs of a religious minority; I don’t see anything wrong with that.

As to Sikhs begin treated like dirt in India, you are totally wrong here. Sure Hindus have a caste system; India in general has plenty of problems. But one feature of India, perhaps unique to a third world country is that many religions coexist peacefully there. Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, Buddhists, Zoroastrians (they even have a small population of Jews). Sure, there are occasional flare ups, but by and large, many religious communities manage to live peacefully in India.

And Sikhs do very well in India. Most of the Sikhs live in the state of Punjab, which is the most prosperous state in India. Sikhs by and large are quite well off in India. They have freedom of religion. They even have a Sikh as the Prime Minister.

So sure India has plenty of problems, but to claim that Sikhs are treated like dirt in India is total nonsense.

 

[Goober]

Sorry Goober, but I refuse to be side tracked. The thread is about the Olympic Committee’s policy towards kirpan and that is all I am going got discuss. If you want to discuss what a bad lot Sikhs are, post a separate thread and I will be happy to discuss that with you.

I don’t want his thread to become a Sikh bashing thread. We are discussing the kirpan policy here.

Anyway, bye for now.

SJPThis is not Sikh bashing - You state this is solely about the Kirpan - That was a threat that was according to the ISU as low - very few cases - but you can bet your bottom dollar that all actions including viloence would be discussed - That would only be logical now wouldn't it?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

SJPThis is not Sikh bashing - You state this is solely about the Kirpan - That was a threat that was according to the ISU as low - very few cases - but you can bet your bottom dollar that all actions including viloence would be discussed - That would only be logical now wouldn't it?

Not when they are discussing whether to let them carry a kirpan into the Olympic Stadium, Goober. Then the only question is, do the Sikhs really hold the kirpan in a holy regard, do they really regard it as a religious symbol, or do they just want an excuse to carry a weapon into the stadium.

Then the question very much arises as to whether there has been any violence involving a kirpan. Question of violence in general is irrelevant here.

 

[Goober]

I don’t think we are importing anything from India. What we are doing is trying to make a reasonable effort to accommodate the beliefs of a religious minority; I don’t see anything wrong with that.

As to Sikhs begin treated like dirt in India, you are totally wrong here. Sure Hindus have a caste system; India in general has plenty of problems. But one feature of India, perhaps unique to a third world country is that many religions coexist peacefully there. Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, Buddhists, Zoroastrians (they even have a small population of Jews). Sure, there are occasional flare ups, but by and large, many religious communities manage to live peacefully in India.

And Sikhs do very well in India. Most of the Sikhs live in the state of Punjab, which is the most prosperous state in India. Sikhs by and large are quite well off in India. They have freedom of religion. They even have a Sikh as the Prime Minister.

So sure India has plenty of problems, but to claim that Sikhs are treated like dirt in India is total nonsense.

SJP
Are you saying that Sikhs do not have a caste system that is possibly similiar to the Hindu caste system?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

SJP
Are you saying that Sikhs do not have a caste system that is possibly similiar to the Hindu caste system?

Sikh religion does not have a caste system, Hinduism does. It is quite possible that Sikhs have an unofficial caste system, I don’t know the Sikh society that well. But if they have one, it is not sanctioned by the religion, unlike Hinduism. They are practicing it in spite of their religion, not because of their religion.

 

[Goober]

Sikh religion does not have a caste system, Hinduism does. It is quite possible that Sikhs have an unofficial caste system, I don’t know the Sikh society that well. But if they have one, it is not sanctioned by the religion, unlike Hinduism. They are practicing it in spite of their religion, not because of their religion.

SJP
Please read and then answer the question with the information provided.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/543916/Sikhism/253170/The-rejection-of-caste

The Adi Granth contains a forthright condemnation of caste, and consequently there is no toleration of caste in its presence (normally in a gurdwara). The Gurus denounced caste as holding no importance whatsoever for access to liberation. In the langar, therefore, everyone must sit in a straight line, neither ahead to lay claim to higher status nor behind to denote inferiority. Indeed, the distinctive Sikh langar originated as a protest against the caste system. Another signal of the Sikhs’ rejection of caste is the distribution of the karah prasad, which is prepared or donated by people of all castes.


In two areas of Sikh society, however, caste is still observed. Sikhs are normally expected to marry within their caste: Jat marries Jat, Khatri marries Khatri, and Dalit marries Dalit. In addition, Sikhs of some castes tend to establish gurdwaras intended for their caste only. Members of the Ramgarhia caste, for example, identify their gurdwaras in this way (particularly those established in the United Kingdom), as do members of the Dalit caste.More than 60 percent of Sikhs belong to the Jat caste, which is a rural caste. The Khatri and Arora castes, both mercantile castes, form a very small minority, though they are influential within the Sikh community. Other castes represented among the Sikhs, in addition to the distinctive Sikh caste of Ramgarhias (artisans), are the Ahluwalias (formerly Kalals [brewers] who have raised their status considerably) and the two Dalit castes, known in Sikh terminology as the Mazhabis (the Chuhras) and the Ramdasias (the Chamars).

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/upper-caste-sikhs-denied-membership-of-dalit-temple-in-canada_10071673.html

Upper-caste Sikhs denied membership of Dalit temple in CanadaVancouver, July 15 (IANS) In a strange case of reverse caste discrimination, two upper-caste Jat Sikhs have been denied membership of a gurdwara run by the Dalit Indo-Canadians in the city of Burnaby near here. Gurshinder Sahota and Sohan Shergill, who had applied for membership of the Shri Guru Ravidass Sabha Temple in February 2007, were rejected by the management reportedly without giving any reason.Aggrieved, the two upper caste Sikhs moved the provincial British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal, alleging that they had been discriminated against on the basis of their caste. They argued that the temple was promoting the evil caste system which stood against Sikh tenets.But in a recent decision, the tribunal rejected their complaint, citing its earlier ruling on a similar dispute about native Indians who are also called First Nations. Being a minority group, the tribunal said, the Dalit management of the temple was entitled to restrict membership to its group.http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/4652This is such a bizarre story. Apparently a fight kicked off between Sikhs in Vienna, Austria, with the result that Sikhs across Punjab got angry and started rioting. I swear, people don’t need much excuses in India to start burning ****.Sant Ramanand, 57, was attacked by six men with knifes and a pistol at a ceremony in a Vienna gurdwara on Sunday. It is thought that Ramanand, from the Dera Sach Khand sect – a low caste Sikh sect that is widespread in Punjab and made up largely of Untouchables or Dalits – was targeted by Jat Sikhs – a higher caste, landowning sect – who accused him of disrespecting the religion when he visited the gurdwara.That, to me, looks like another one of those cases where Jat Sikhs (a grouping my family unfortunately belongs to) swagger around telling everyone who is a proper Sikh and who isn’t, and who is a fake Sikh etc. I’m not surprised that lower-caste Sikhs in Punjab are angry. But street riots?
This article in the Times of India says it has put caste in the spotlight. And here’s the shameful thing – Sikhs are not supposed to follow the Hindu caste system at all. It is strictly forbidden. And yet Jat (landowner) Sikhs, who see themselves at the top of the pecking order, are the worst offenders in perpetuating caste differences. Annoys the hell out of me.Vienna clash may put caste in global spotlight
Subodh Ghildiyal, TNN 26 May 2009, 04:20am ISTPrintNEW DELHI:
Caste fingerprints on the sensational Vienna shootout among Sikhs could result in renewed international pressure for recognition of caste-based discrimination as a global concern, with many hinting at a revived clamour for treating casteism as racism.The ghost of Durban conference in 2001, where India fought back a determined and coordinated bid by NGOs to recognise casteism as racism, may raise its head again. Only this month, Indian government is said to have rebuffed a fresh offensive from Scandinavian countries underlining their stand on caste-race parity.The move came in the run-up to two-day review of Durban racism conference last month, taking India by surprise. The Indian stand on the controversial issue has been that while caste system is a form of discrimination, it could not be equated with racism. It has cited its constitutional commitment against casteism as proof of its credentials.But dalit lobbies say that Vienna bloodshed has blown holes in the argument that caste was an Indian phenomenon, firmly showing that it had spilled out on global platform along with the diaspora. Says Vivek Kumar, who teaches sociology in JNU, "Caste has moved beyond India with Indian diaspora as the latter does not move as individuals but takes its cultural baggage along. There is growing evidence that caste is showing its face in other countries."Dalit groups concede that not much may change on the issue immediately as Indian voice is influential in global fora. But, they add, growing evidence of presence of caste on global platforms, like incidents in Vienna, would put pressure on India. "We will raise the issue through NGOs across the world," said Ashok Bharti, who runs National Conference of Dalit Organisations.The intra-Sikh violence is reported to be a perennial point of conflict as Ravidasi Sikhs have floated their own gurudwaras, attracting hostility from upper caste Sikhs. The hotbed is Europe, Canada and UK. The problem could be serious in future owing to sheer numbers. An estimate puts Sikh population in UK between four to five lakh, of which one-third are said to be dalits.Sources said caste was getting recognition as an issue outside India. There is a strong demand from sections of dalit diaspora in UK, Canada and US that governments enact laws to deal with caste-related crimes as with race-related crimes. These are countries with huge Indian-origin population, including Sikhs. In UK, Caste Watch has been formed to detail cases of caste-related crimes.For India, the pressure from Vienna could be serious in the wake of post-Durban Conference pressure that casteism falls in the category of work and descent and was akin to racism. Massive pressure from NGOs in Durban Conference on Racism in 2001 was resisted by India. However, the UN Council on Human Rights appointed special rapporteurs to report on caste discrimination in India.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30933094/
VIENNA - Investigators believe a sermon at a Sikh temple in Austria set off an attack that saw worshippers use a frying pan and microphone stands to fend off knife- and gun-wielding assailants who fatally shot a cleric.

The death sparked riots in several northern Indian cities.Witnesses said the Vienna temple attended by lower-caste Sikhs was attacked Sunday by Sikhs from a higher caste who accused one or both of the preachers of being disrespectful of the religion's Holy Book.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Holy Mackerel !!! Now this Thread has homework assignments? 8O

 

[AnnaG]

No, I didn't miss it, I just noticed that you artfully left that detail out. Since that is what Cannuck mentioned several posts back, I thought it was important to keep it.

Artfully? Well, thank you.
Anyway, so? Is there something that says anyone can't load a couple bottles with nasty stuff and go for a flight? Last I heard there was a volume limit on fluids, but big deal.
We better protect flights from stuff in snampoo bottles. Better protect flights from people weilding pencils and garottes. Same for Olys. lol

 

[AnnaG]

Sorry Goober, but I refuse to be side tracked. The thread is about the Olympic Committee’s policy towards kirpan and that is all I am going got discuss. If you want to discuss what a bad lot Sikhs are, post a separate thread and I will be happy to discuss that with you.

I don’t want his thread to become a Sikh bashing thread. We are discussing the kirpan policy here.

Anyway, bye for now.

Aaaahhh , but it's ok if you sidetrack threads with your nitpicking. I see. :roll: What a hypocrite

 

[AnnaG]

SJP
Please read and then answer the question with the information provided.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/543916/Sikhism/253170/The-rejection-of-caste

The Adi Granth contains a forthright condemnation of caste, and consequently there is no toleration of caste in its presence (normally in a gurdwara). The Gurus denounced caste as holding no importance whatsoever for access to liberation. In the langar, therefore, everyone must sit in a straight line, neither ahead to lay claim to higher status nor behind to denote inferiority. Indeed, the distinctive Sikh langar originated as a protest against the caste system. Another signal of the Sikhs’ rejection of caste is the distribution of the karah prasad, which is prepared or donated by people of all castes.


In two areas of Sikh society, however, caste is still observed. Sikhs are normally expected to marry within their caste: Jat marries Jat, Khatri marries Khatri, and Dalit marries Dalit. In addition, Sikhs of some castes tend to establish gurdwaras intended for their caste only. Members of the Ramgarhia caste, for example, identify their gurdwaras in this way (particularly those established in the United Kingdom), as do members of the Dalit caste.More than 60 percent of Sikhs belong to the Jat caste, which is a rural caste. The Khatri and Arora castes, both mercantile castes, form a very small minority, though they are influential within the Sikh community. Other castes represented among the Sikhs, in addition to the distinctive Sikh caste of Ramgarhias (artisans), are the Ahluwalias (formerly Kalals [brewers] who have raised their status considerably) and the two Dalit castes, known in Sikh terminology as the Mazhabis (the Chuhras) and the Ramdasias (the Chamars).

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/upper-caste-sikhs-denied-membership-of-dalit-temple-in-canada_10071673.html

Upper-caste Sikhs denied membership of Dalit temple in CanadaVancouver, July 15 (IANS) In a strange case of reverse caste discrimination, two upper-caste Jat Sikhs have been denied membership of a gurdwara run by the Dalit Indo-Canadians in the city of Burnaby near here. Gurshinder Sahota and Sohan Shergill, who had applied for membership of the Shri Guru Ravidass Sabha Temple in February 2007, were rejected by the management reportedly without giving any reason.Aggrieved, the two upper caste Sikhs moved the provincial British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal, alleging that they had been discriminated against on the basis of their caste. They argued that the temple was promoting the evil caste system which stood against Sikh tenets.But in a recent decision, the tribunal rejected their complaint, citing its earlier ruling on a similar dispute about native Indians who are also called First Nations. Being a minority group, the tribunal said, the Dalit management of the temple was entitled to restrict membership to its group.http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/4652This is such a bizarre story. Apparently a fight kicked off between Sikhs in Vienna, Austria, with the result that Sikhs across Punjab got angry and started rioting. I swear, people don’t need much excuses in India to start burning ****.Sant Ramanand, 57, was attacked by six men with knifes and a pistol at a ceremony in a Vienna gurdwara on Sunday. It is thought that Ramanand, from the Dera Sach Khand sect – a low caste Sikh sect that is widespread in Punjab and made up largely of Untouchables or Dalits – was targeted by Jat Sikhs – a higher caste, landowning sect – who accused him of disrespecting the religion when he visited the gurdwara.That, to me, looks like another one of those cases where Jat Sikhs (a grouping my family unfortunately belongs to) swagger around telling everyone who is a proper Sikh and who isn’t, and who is a fake Sikh etc. I’m not surprised that lower-caste Sikhs in Punjab are angry. But street riots?
This article in the Times of India says it has put caste in the spotlight. And here’s the shameful thing – Sikhs are not supposed to follow the Hindu caste system at all. It is strictly forbidden. And yet Jat (landowner) Sikhs, who see themselves at the top of the pecking order, are the worst offenders in perpetuating caste differences. Annoys the hell out of me.Vienna clash may put caste in global spotlight
Subodh Ghildiyal, TNN 26 May 2009, 04:20am ISTPrintNEW DELHI:
Caste fingerprints on the sensational Vienna shootout among Sikhs could result in renewed international pressure for recognition of caste-based discrimination as a global concern, with many hinting at a revived clamour for treating casteism as racism.The ghost of Durban conference in 2001, where India fought back a determined and coordinated bid by NGOs to recognise casteism as racism, may raise its head again. Only this month, Indian government is said to have rebuffed a fresh offensive from Scandinavian countries underlining their stand on caste-race parity.The move came in the run-up to two-day review of Durban racism conference last month, taking India by surprise. The Indian stand on the controversial issue has been that while caste system is a form of discrimination, it could not be equated with racism. It has cited its constitutional commitment against casteism as proof of its credentials.But dalit lobbies say that Vienna bloodshed has blown holes in the argument that caste was an Indian phenomenon, firmly showing that it had spilled out on global platform along with the diaspora. Says Vivek Kumar, who teaches sociology in JNU, "Caste has moved beyond India with Indian diaspora as the latter does not move as individuals but takes its cultural baggage along. There is growing evidence that caste is showing its face in other countries."Dalit groups concede that not much may change on the issue immediately as Indian voice is influential in global fora. But, they add, growing evidence of presence of caste on global platforms, like incidents in Vienna, would put pressure on India. "We will raise the issue through NGOs across the world," said Ashok Bharti, who runs National Conference of Dalit Organisations.The intra-Sikh violence is reported to be a perennial point of conflict as Ravidasi Sikhs have floated their own gurudwaras, attracting hostility from upper caste Sikhs. The hotbed is Europe, Canada and UK. The problem could be serious in future owing to sheer numbers. An estimate puts Sikh population in UK between four to five lakh, of which one-third are said to be dalits.Sources said caste was getting recognition as an issue outside India. There is a strong demand from sections of dalit diaspora in UK, Canada and US that governments enact laws to deal with caste-related crimes as with race-related crimes. These are countries with huge Indian-origin population, including Sikhs. In UK, Caste Watch has been formed to detail cases of caste-related crimes.For India, the pressure from Vienna could be serious in the wake of post-Durban Conference pressure that casteism falls in the category of work and descent and was akin to racism. Massive pressure from NGOs in Durban Conference on Racism in 2001 was resisted by India. However, the UN Council on Human Rights appointed special rapporteurs to report on caste discrimination in India.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30933094/
VIENNA - Investigators believe a sermon at a Sikh temple in Austria set off an attack that saw worshippers use a frying pan and microphone stands to fend off knife- and gun-wielding assailants who fatally shot a cleric.

The death sparked riots in several northern Indian cities.Witnesses said the Vienna temple attended by lower-caste Sikhs was attacked Sunday by Sikhs from a higher caste who accused one or both of the preachers of being disrespectful of the religion's Holy Book.

Kirpans, Holy Books, pencils, garottes, crosses, rolled up magazine type clubs, canes, whatever. Ban it all from any public place or allow it all.

Think I'll take a couple rolls of Loonies to the Olys and beat someone to death.:roll: Or maybe a brick in my purse. Or skewer someone with my umbrella.

 

[AnnaG]

Holy Mackerel !!! Now this Thread has homework assignments? 8O

lol
Goober did specify Pompa... ooops er Jokey to do the homework. I think that excuses the rest of us.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

SJP
Please read and then answer the question with the information provided.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/543916/Sikhism/253170/The-rejection-of-caste

The Adi Granth contains a forthright condemnation of caste, and consequently there is no toleration of caste in its presence (normally in a gurdwara). The Gurus denounced caste as holding no importance whatsoever for access to liberation. In the langar, therefore, everyone must sit in a straight line, neither ahead to lay claim to higher status nor behind to denote inferiority. Indeed, the distinctive Sikh langar originated as a protest against the caste system. Another signal of the Sikhs’ rejection of caste is the distribution of the karah prasad, which is prepared or donated by people of all castes.


In two areas of Sikh society, however, caste is still observed. Sikhs are normally expected to marry within their caste: Jat marries Jat, Khatri marries Khatri, and Dalit marries Dalit. In addition, Sikhs of some castes tend to establish gurdwaras intended for their caste only. Members of the Ramgarhia caste, for example, identify their gurdwaras in this way (particularly those established in the United Kingdom), as do members of the Dalit caste.More than 60 percent of Sikhs belong to the Jat caste, which is a rural caste. The Khatri and Arora castes, both mercantile castes, form a very small minority, though they are influential within the Sikh community. Other castes represented among the Sikhs, in addition to the distinctive Sikh caste of Ramgarhias (artisans), are the Ahluwalias (formerly Kalals [brewers] who have raised their status considerably) and the two Dalit castes, known in Sikh terminology as the Mazhabis (the Chuhras) and the Ramdasias (the Chamars).

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/upper-caste-sikhs-denied-membership-of-dalit-temple-in-canada_10071673.html

Upper-caste Sikhs denied membership of Dalit temple in CanadaVancouver, July 15 (IANS) In a strange case of reverse caste discrimination, two upper-caste Jat Sikhs have been denied membership of a gurdwara run by the Dalit Indo-Canadians in the city of Burnaby near here. Gurshinder Sahota and Sohan Shergill, who had applied for membership of the Shri Guru Ravidass Sabha Temple in February 2007, were rejected by the management reportedly without giving any reason.Aggrieved, the two upper caste Sikhs moved the provincial British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal, alleging that they had been discriminated against on the basis of their caste. They argued that the temple was promoting the evil caste system which stood against Sikh tenets.But in a recent decision, the tribunal rejected their complaint, citing its earlier ruling on a similar dispute about native Indians who are also called First Nations. Being a minority group, the tribunal said, the Dalit management of the temple was entitled to restrict membership to its group.http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/4652This is such a bizarre story. Apparently a fight kicked off between Sikhs in Vienna, Austria, with the result that Sikhs across Punjab got angry and started rioting. I swear, people don’t need much excuses in India to start burning ****.Sant Ramanand, 57, was attacked by six men with knifes and a pistol at a ceremony in a Vienna gurdwara on Sunday. It is thought that Ramanand, from the Dera Sach Khand sect – a low caste Sikh sect that is widespread in Punjab and made up largely of Untouchables or Dalits – was targeted by Jat Sikhs – a higher caste, landowning sect – who accused him of disrespecting the religion when he visited the gurdwara.That, to me, looks like another one of those cases where Jat Sikhs (a grouping my family unfortunately belongs to) swagger around telling everyone who is a proper Sikh and who isn’t, and who is a fake Sikh etc. I’m not surprised that lower-caste Sikhs in Punjab are angry. But street riots?
This article in the Times of India says it has put caste in the spotlight. And here’s the shameful thing – Sikhs are not supposed to follow the Hindu caste system at all. It is strictly forbidden. And yet Jat (landowner) Sikhs, who see themselves at the top of the pecking order, are the worst offenders in perpetuating caste differences. Annoys the hell out of me.Vienna clash may put caste in global spotlight
Subodh Ghildiyal, TNN 26 May 2009, 04:20am ISTPrintNEW DELHI:
Caste fingerprints on the sensational Vienna shootout among Sikhs could result in renewed international pressure for recognition of caste-based discrimination as a global concern, with many hinting at a revived clamour for treating casteism as racism.The ghost of Durban conference in 2001, where India fought back a determined and coordinated bid by NGOs to recognise casteism as racism, may raise its head again. Only this month, Indian government is said to have rebuffed a fresh offensive from Scandinavian countries underlining their stand on caste-race parity.The move came in the run-up to two-day review of Durban racism conference last month, taking India by surprise. The Indian stand on the controversial issue has been that while caste system is a form of discrimination, it could not be equated with racism. It has cited its constitutional commitment against casteism as proof of its credentials.But dalit lobbies say that Vienna bloodshed has blown holes in the argument that caste was an Indian phenomenon, firmly showing that it had spilled out on global platform along with the diaspora. Says Vivek Kumar, who teaches sociology in JNU, "Caste has moved beyond India with Indian diaspora as the latter does not move as individuals but takes its cultural baggage along. There is growing evidence that caste is showing its face in other countries."Dalit groups concede that not much may change on the issue immediately as Indian voice is influential in global fora. But, they add, growing evidence of presence of caste on global platforms, like incidents in Vienna, would put pressure on India. "We will raise the issue through NGOs across the world," said Ashok Bharti, who runs National Conference of Dalit Organisations.The intra-Sikh violence is reported to be a perennial point of conflict as Ravidasi Sikhs have floated their own gurudwaras, attracting hostility from upper caste Sikhs. The hotbed is Europe, Canada and UK. The problem could be serious in future owing to sheer numbers. An estimate puts Sikh population in UK between four to five lakh, of which one-third are said to be dalits.Sources said caste was getting recognition as an issue outside India. There is a strong demand from sections of dalit diaspora in UK, Canada and US that governments enact laws to deal with caste-related crimes as with race-related crimes. These are countries with huge Indian-origin population, including Sikhs. In UK, Caste Watch has been formed to detail cases of caste-related crimes.For India, the pressure from Vienna could be serious in the wake of post-Durban Conference pressure that casteism falls in the category of work and descent and was akin to racism. Massive pressure from NGOs in Durban Conference on Racism in 2001 was resisted by India. However, the UN Council on Human Rights appointed special rapporteurs to report on caste discrimination in India.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30933094/
VIENNA - Investigators believe a sermon at a Sikh temple in Austria set off an attack that saw worshippers use a frying pan and microphone stands to fend off knife- and gun-wielding assailants who fatally shot a cleric.

The death sparked riots in several northern Indian cities.Witnesses said the Vienna temple attended by lower-caste Sikhs was attacked Sunday by Sikhs from a higher caste who accused one or both of the preachers of being disrespectful of the religion's Holy Book.

Goober this really supports what I said in my post. Sikhism does not approve of caste system, all the human beings are equal in the eyes of Sikh religion. If any Sikhs are unofficially practicing the caste system, it is without the blessings of their religion.

 

[Goober]

Goober this really supports what I said in my post. Sikhism does not approve of caste system, all the human beings are equal in the eyes of Sikh religion. If any Sikhs are unofficially practicing the caste system, it is without the blessings of their religion.

I read some where that 60 % observed the caste system - so I do not think it supports your position.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I read some where that 60 % observed the caste system - so I do not think it supports your position.

Sure it does. The article posted by you says that Sikh religion does not support the caste system, but that some Sikhs practice it anyway (in spite of their religion). That is exactly what I said in my post.

What does 60% have to do with anything?

 

[Goober]

Sure it does. The article posted by you says that Sikh religion does not support the caste system, but that some Sikhs practice it anyway (in spite of their religion). That is exactly what I said in my post.

What does 60% have to do with anything?

SJPWhen a Christian fails to follow their creed you are on them like stink on excretement - but you seem to have more time shall we say for Hindus and Sikhs -

 

[SirJosephPorter]

SJPWhen a Christian fails to follow their creed you are on them like stink on excretement - but you seem to have more time shall we say for Hindus and Sikhs -

Don't change the subject, Goober. We were discussing if I was right about Sikhism, and I was.