'Russia is fighting a war with us': Georgian president

Zzarchov

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No, this will do for now......

"Presidential election in South Ossetia, an unrecognized republic within Georgia, was held on November 12, 2006, coinciding with the South Ossetian independence referendum. Incumbent Eduard Kokoity was seeking a second full five-year term. He was re-elected with more than 98.1%. According to the de facto authorities, the election was monitored by a team of 34 international observers from Germany, Austria, Poland, Sweden and other countries at 78 polling stations. The Ukrainian delegation was led by Nataliya Vitrenko of the Progressive Socialist Party of Ukraine. The election process was criticised by local civic society and the results were likely to be inflated."

^ So they hold their own elections, which were monitored by other nations such as Germany, Austria, Poland and Sweden...... I don't see anything claiming of people not being allowed to vote just yet. There is questions in regards to inflated results of the 98.1% win..... but then again, most politicians in our own countries would love to have that sort of count behind them, so it would seem unrealistic to them that someone would win that much....... but then again, maybe that amount of the population really wants to seperate after all.

They seem to be holding their own democratic processes and government.... sounds like they're not wanting to be a part of Georgia apparently.

"Voters were also to answer a question: "do you agree with the renewal of talks with Georgia on a federal union." The alternative elections and referendum were held in the villages with mixed Georgian-Ossetian population not controlled by the secessionist government. The Salvation Union of South Ossetia which organised the election turned down a request from a Georgian NGO, “Multinational Georgia”, to monitor it and the released results were also very likely to be inflated."

^ I don't see any explination on yes or no for this vote.... but regardless of the vote outcome, it asked "do you agree with the renewal of talks with Georgia on a federal union." ~ Talks are one thing..... wanting is another.

And I see a lot of "Very Likely" but no absolutes, or facts...... just mere assumptions.


Just read the whole article on South Ossettia. The Alternate election had an equally high turn out and support.

Notice 2 facts:

1.) The presidential elections in South Ossetia don't include asking those people in the region who aren't Ossetian, mixed villages don't get to vote.

2.) The "South Ossetian Government" doesn't include all of South Ossettia, but they want all of South Ossetia to seperate even though they don't actually run the place in any way shape or form.

3.) Those second elections lead to clashes between areas of South Ossettia under seperatist control and those areas they tried to annex to "unify" south ossettia.

This led to georgia leading its own skirmishes and raids.

leading to increased russian presence

leading to invasion

leading to counter-invasion

leading to recognized independance against the wishes of much of South Ossettia.


Thats the situation in nutshell, in someways it does resemble quebec.

One ethnic group wants to seperate, and they decide that other ethni groups who want to seperate from them and stay part of the country are threatened and attempted to annex (much like Quebec thinks the Innu in Northern Quebec should be forced to seperate with them)

This leads to where we are now.
 

Praxius

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Update:



Putin blames US for Georgia role
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7586605.stm

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has accused the US of provoking the conflict in Georgia, possibly for domestic election purposes.


Mr Putin told CNN US citizens were "in the area" during the conflict over South Ossetia and were "taking direct orders from their leaders".

He said his defence officials had told him the provocation was to benefit one of the US presidential candidates.

The White House dismissed the allegations as "not rational".

Georgia tried to retake the Russian-backed separatist region of South Ossetia this month by force after a series of clashes.

Russian forces subsequently launched a counter-attack and the conflict ended with the ejection of Georgian troops from both South Ossetia and another rebel region, Abkhazia, and an EU-brokered ceasefire.

Diplomatic wrangling

Mr Putin said in the interview: "The fact is that US citizens were indeed in the area in conflict during the hostilities."
"It should be admitted that they would do so only following direct orders from their leaders."


Mr Putin added: "The American side in effect armed and trained the Georgian army."

"Why... seek a difficult compromise solution in the peacekeeping process? It is easier to arm one of the sides and provoke it into killing another side. And the job is done."

"The suspicion arises that someone in the United States especially created this conflict with the aim of making the situation more tense and creating a competitive advantage for one of the candidates fighting for the post of US president."

White House spokeswoman Dana Perino rejected the allegation.

"To suggest that the United States orchestrated this on behalf of a political candidate - it sounds not rational," she said.
"Those claims first and foremost are patently false, but it also sounds like his defence officials who said they believed this to be true are giving him really bad advice."


Diplomatic wrangling over Russia's actions in Georgia continued on Thursday with the Georgian parliament urging its government to cut diplomatic ties with Moscow.

Earlier, French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner suggested some EU countries were considering sanctions against Russia.

Mr Kouchner insisted France had made no proposals for sanctions itself but, as current president of the EU, would aim to get consensus among all 27 countries of the bloc if sanctions were envisaged.

France has called an emergency EU summit on Monday to reassess relations with Russia.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov described talk of sanctions as the working of "a sick imagination".

Such talk was an emotional response that demonstrated Western confusion over the situation, he said.

The US has said it is now considering scrapping a US-Russia civilian nuclear co-operation pact in response to the conflict.

"I don't think there's anything to announce yet, but I know that that is under discussion," Ms Perino said.

The White House has also announced that up to $5.75m (£3.1m) will be freed to help Georgia meet "unexpected and urgent refugee and migration needs".

Rocket test

Earlier on Thursday Russia failed to get strong backing from its Asian allies over the Georgia conflict.

The Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO), comprising Russia, China and Central Asian nations, met in Dushanbe, Tajikistan, and spoke of its deep concern.

The group did not follow Russia in recognising the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev insisted he had the backing of the nations over Moscow's actions.

Amid the rising tension, Russia announced on Thursday it had successfully tested its long-range Topol ballistic missile from a launch site in Kamchatka in the far east of the country.
Russia says the rocket is capable of penetrating the proposed US missile defence.

Wouldn't suprise me if this was all done for politics in the US.... The White House dismissed the remarks as "Not Rational." Well apparently anything the US is acused of by any country isn't rational.... not to mention they never even bother to explain why or why not.... just always just dismiss anything that doesn't suit their own propaganda.

I'm not saying I 100% believe Putin's claims, but the timing of the Georgian attacks around the time of the Olympic openings, the quick villianization of Russia for defending civilians, the claims that they are trying to take over the world...... it wouldn't suprise me.
 

Zzarchov

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And you don't think this accusation is to benefit Russian politicians considering the ****storm hitting their country at the prospects of Sanctions with Europe? (which would kill their economy and send them back to the 90's)

I know this is hard to believe, but Russia is every bit as capable of doing these evil acts you attribute to the US themselves.

And Georgia is more than capable of pulling its own strings and make its own decisions about rebel groups in its territory.
 

mabudon

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IF Russia decides to stop sellin fuel and a few other raw materials to certain folks, that goofy Afghanistan pipeline will not be too useful anymore- this whole complicated mess is likely gonna mess a LOT of stuff up

I have very little doubt, personally, that Russia could NOT easily become totally isolationist with regards to the EU and the west in general and it would hurt US, not them.

We shall see. I have a feeling all this hot air being blown about is a sign of desperation from the West- we KNOW what cards the Russians hold, and if they don't just follow our orders they could very well mess things up for the elite, so all this nonsense about "punishing" them is basically pathetic- LIKE there's no market but the EU lol

as IF they couldn't sell oil to a non-white, non US-friendly country. THAT is an hilarious delusion
 

Scott Free

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It would be in Russia's best interest to nuke the USA a.s.a.p. before the US missile defence system completely makes them (Russia) a sitting duck. One high altitude electromagnetic pulse from a nuclear bomb is all it would take to wipe the US off the map according to the DOD.
 

Zzarchov

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Russia can't really hurt the EU more than it hurts themselves.

It needs the money from selling the gas and oil to keep itself afloat. If it sells the oil and gas to another country instead...well, then now whomever was supplying that country with oil needs a new buyer..enter europe.


Don't forget, there is a surplus of oil. What there is is speculators basing todays prices off what they think tommorow will bring.

Russia withholding oil to harm europe is a little like a non-unionized employee going on strike to hurt his boss.

Dangerous gambit.
 
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Praxius

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It would be in Russia's best interest to nuke the USA a.s.a.p. before the US missile defence system completely makes them (Russia) a sitting duck. One high altitude electromagnetic pulse from a nuclear bomb is all it would take to wipe the US off the map according to the DOD.

Hey, I sorta live upwind of New York..... I'd rather not deal with Nuclear fallout, thank you.

Of course if Russia uses their Vacuum Bomb, then I couldn't care less, as then I don't have to worry about Nuclear fallout.



Russia unveils its ‘vacuum bomb'September 11, 2007
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070911.wbombb0911/BNStory/International/home
MOSCOW — Russia has tested the world's most powerful vacuum bomb, an explosive device unleashing a destructive shockwave with the power of a nuclear weapon, the military said on Tuesday.

The bomb is the latest in a series of new Russian weapons and policy moves unveiled as President Vladimir Putin tries to reassert Moscow's role on the international stage.

"Test results of the new airborne weapon have shown that its efficiency and power is commensurate with a nuclear weapon," Alexander Rukshin, Russian deputy armed forces chief of staff, told Russia's ORT First Channel television.

"You will now see it in action, the bomb which has no match in the world is being tested at a military site," the state-controlled channel said. It showed a Tupolev Tu-160 strategic bomber dropping the bomb over a testing ground. A large explosion followed.

Pictures followed of what looked like a flattened multi-storeyed block of flats, surrounded by scorched soil and boulders.

"The defence ministry stresses this military invention does not contradict a single international treaty. Russia is not unleashing a new arms race," the channel said.

Such devices generally detonate in two stages. First a small blast disperses a main load of explosive material into a cloud, which then either spontaneously ignites in air or is set off by a second charge.

This explosion generates a pressure wave that reaches much further than that from a conventional explosive. The consumption of gases in the blast also generates a partial vacuum that can compound damage and injuries caused by the explosion itself.

"The main destruction is inflicted by an ultrasonic shockwave and an incredibly high temperature," the report said. "All that is alive merely evaporates."

"At the same time, I want to stress that the action of this weapon does not contaminate the environment, in contrast to a nuclear one," Mr. Rukshin said.
 
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Praxius

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Russia can't really hurt the EU more than it hurts themselves.

It needs the money from selling the gas and oil to keep itself afloat. If it sells the oil and gas to another country instead...well, then now whomever was supplying that country with oil needs a new buyer..enter europe.


Don't forget, there is a surplus of oil. What there is is speculators basing todays prices off what they think tommorow will bring.

Russia withholding oil to harm europe is a little like a non-unionized employee going on strike to hurt his boss.

Dangerous gambit.

I don't see it as that big of a deal, as there is a high global demand for oil at present, and I'm sure it's not going to be too hard to find buyers.

It's not like our media/governments are telling us that they're just rolling in the oil at present, and they can't find buyers, which is why the price is so high.
 

Zzarchov

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This is surplus oil not being sold, that is the nature of Opec.

Let me put it this way, there is no one saying "We want oil, we just don't have any"

Anyone who wants oil (And isn't under embargo) can get oil.

Think of it in a simplified system.

There are 2 sellers (A and B), each selling 1 unit of oil.

There are 2 buyers, each buying 1 unit of oil (X and Y).

A sells 1 unit to X
B sells 1 unit to Y


Then A and X have a falling out over the invasion of Slomakistan

So A doesn't sell his 1 unit to X.

He A has three options

Not sell his unit of oil and lose money.
Sell his oil to B at a discount, who will then have surplus oil (to then resell to X)
Sell his oil to Y at a discount to beat out B.

If he goes with the third option, one of two things happen.
B needs to sell its oil, so it sells to X (no real change in situation).
Y keeps this extra unit of surplus oil, and sells it to X for profit.


In the end, if A decides to sell oil, X gets oil.
Their is no way for it to hurt X without also hurting A to the same amount.
 

Praxius

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Update:


Russia will absorb breakaway Georgian province: official
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/08/29/russia-georgia.html

Russia has told leaders of South Ossetia it plans to absorb the breakaway Georgian province eventually, officials in the territory said Friday.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and South Ossetian leader Eduard Kokoity discussed the territory's future earlier this week in Moscow, South Ossetian parliamentary Speaker Znaur Gassiyev said.

Russia will absorb South Ossetia "in several years" or earlier, a position that was "firmly stated by both leaders," Gassiyev said.

Gassiyev's deputy, Tarzan Kokoiti, said South Ossetia has the right to reunite with North Ossetia, which is part of Russia.

"We will live in one united Russian state," he said.

A Kremlin spokeswoman said she had no such information and declined immediate comment.
Lavrov slams 'biased' G7 criticism

The claims come as Moscow hit back at a statement from the G7 nations declaring Russia's recognition of the independence of South Ossetia and another breakaway province, Abkhazia, as a violation of international law.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov condemned the group's declaration as "biased and is aimed at justifying the aggressive actions of Georgia."

The G7 — Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the U.S. and the U.K. — is also considering kicking Russia out of the larger Group of Eight, which would effectively disband the club of leading industrialized countries.

European leaders are also considering sanctions against Russia to punish Moscow for its continued presence in Georgia and recognition of the independence of the two Georgian separatist regions, French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said Thursday.

Russia failed to shore up its own international support when China and four former Soviet republics in Central Asia refused a Moscow appeal to recognize the territories.

Russia accuses Georgia of starting the five-day war between the two countries earlier this month by attacking South Ossetia on Aug. 7.

Russia responded by driving Georgian forces out of South Ossetia and sending thousands of troops, backed by tanks and armoured vehicles, deep into Abkhazia before taking up positions far inside Georgian territory.

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said in a CNN interview on Thursday that he suspected the U.S. of provoking the Georgia conflict to create a "competitive advantage for one of the candidates fighting for the post of U.S. president." He did not explain his comment.

The White House immediately dismissed Putin's assertion as "not rational."
 

Zzarchov

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Well now, I don't ever recall South Ossetia EVER having a referendum on joining Russia.

There really isn't a defense on that one.

"Oh Georgia is trying to annex you against your will! Here, let us help you, btw, now we are annexing you against your will"

All hail Russia, so much better than "imperialist america"
 

Scott Free

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The "Russia is lucky to sell it's oil to the EU" hypothesis has a serious flaw in that any other supply of oil will need to come through Georgia. Which is why the US is so interested in Georgia because it wants such an oil line that can replace Russian oil.

The USA is at war with Russia; it is trying to isolate Russia, destroy its income, and surround it with missiles.

Russia needs to strike back while it still can.
 
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Scott Free

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Hey, I sorta live upwind of New York..... I'd rather not deal with Nuclear fallout, thank you.

I hear that. I don't want to have to deal with American refugees either but the fact is that the USA is trying to take over the world. I don't give a sh!t what their intentions or pathetic excuses are - what they are doing is consummate evil - full stop. No country can be allowed to rule us all and corporations even less so! It must be stopped.
 

Scott Free

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Pushing Russia Into the Cold

A year after taking power, in June 1934, Adolf Hitler made his first visit abroad — to his idol Benito Mussolini in Venice.

Babbling on incessantly about "Mein Kampf "and the Negroid strain in Mediterranean peoples, the Fuhrer made a dismal impression.

"What a clown this Hitler is," Mussolini told an aide.

Two weeks later, Hitler executed the Roehm purge and murdered scores of old Stormtrooper comrades. In late July, Austrian Nazis, attempting a coup, assassinated Chancellor Engelbert Dollfuss, a friend of Mussolini whose wife and child were then his guests.

Il Duce ordered four divisions to the Brenner Pass and flew to Vienna to vent his rage and disgust with Hitler. He called a summit at Stresa with Britain and France to agree on military action should Hitler make any new move in violation of Versailles.

At the time, however, Il Duce was also plotting revenge on Abyssinia for a bloody border clash with Italian Somaliland.

Mussolini thought his Allies would understand if he invaded the Ogaden to add an African colony to his new Roman Empire, just as the British and French had so often done in previous decades.

Mussolini miscalculated. Morally outraged, Britain and France went before the League of Nations and had sanctions imposed on Italy that were too weak to defeat her but punitive enough to insult her.

Friendless, isolated and condemned as an aggressor by Europe, Italy and Mussolini had nowhere to turn now but Hitler's Germany.

Thus, over the fate of an Abyssinian slave empire, Britain drove her faithful World War I ally into the arms of a Nazi dictator Mussolini loathed and had wished to confront beside Britain. And Abyssinia was overrun.

Are we making the same mistake in the Caucasus?

Mikheil Saakashvili started this war with his barrage attack and occupation of South Ossetia. Russia's war of retribution was far less violent or excessive than the U.S. bombing of Serbia for 78 days over Kosovo, or our unprovoked war on Saddam Hussein's Iraq, which has brought death to scores of thousands, or Israel's 35 days of bombing of Lebanon for a border skirmish with Hezbollah.

Yet, declared John McCain of Russia, "In the 21st century, nations don't invade other nations." Even Dick Cheney must have guffawed.

Russia must get out now, adds Bush, for South Ossetia and Abkhazia belong to a sovereign Georgia. But when did Bush demand that Israel get off the Golan Heights or withdraw from the birthplace of Jesus, which Israelis have occupied for 41 years, as he demands that Russia get out of the birthplace of Joseph Stalin, which Russia has occupied for two weeks?
As Israel was provoked in 1967, so, too, was Russia provoked.

Russians died in Saakashvili's attack, as American died in Pancho Villa's raid on New Mexico in 1916. We sent "Black Jack" Pershing, future Gen. George Patton and a U.S. army 300 miles into Mexico to kill Villa. Was this proportionate?

If we proceed on a course of isolating Russia from the West, keeping her out of the World Trade Organization, throwing her out of the G-8 and ending cooperation with NATO, where do we think Russia will go? Where did Il Duce go, when he was excommunicated from the West?

Condi Rice compares Vladimir Putin's action in Georgia to Leonid Brezhnev's crushing of the Prague Spring in 1968. She raced to Warsaw to ink a deal to put 10 anti-missile missiles and U.S. Patriot missiles manned by Americans into Poland.

Does the Stanford provost have any idea where the end of this road lies, upon which she and Bush have started the United States?

What do we do if Russia responds to our Patriots in Poland with the Russian S-300 anti-aircraft system in Iran and Syria?

If the United States intends to bring Georgia and Ukraine into NATO and arm them to fight Russia, why should Russia not dissolve the Treaty on Conventional Forces in Europe and move her tank armies into Belarus and up to the borders of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania?
Would we send U.S. troops into the Baltic republics to signal that we will fight Russia to honor our NATO war guarantees? Which NATO allies would fight alongside us against a nuclear-armed Russia?

If we bring Ukraine into NATO, what do we do if Russified east Ukraine secedes and Russia sends troops to back the rebels? Do we send warships into Russia's bathtub, the Black Sea, and commit to fight as long as it takes to restore Ukraine's territorial integrity?

In March 1939, Britain pledged to declare war and fight Germany to the death to guarantee the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Poland. How did that one turn out for Britain and Poland?

Before we start down the road of isolating and encircling Russia with weak NATO allies, let us think through Gen. Petraeus' question in 2003 about Iraq, "Tell me, how does this thing end?"

But, then, these folks never seem to think anything through.

Source
 
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Zzarchov

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Couple of Things:

1.) siding with Ethiopia would have been great if Japan hadn't done the "whole rape of Nanjing", as Ethiopia was a sattelite state of Japan and at that point, ALSO a faithful WWI ally.

2.) If Italy was on the Allied side, that would have pushed Stalin to the side to Hitler. And that would have been scary.


Ethiopia was also not a slave empire., it had been. Slavery not being banned until 1923 officially, and not completely phased out until 1942 when the allies took over.
 

Scott Free

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Couple of Things:

1.) siding with Ethiopia would have been great if Japan hadn't done the "whole rape of Nanjing", as Ethiopia was a sattelite state of Japan and at that point, ALSO a faithful WWI ally.

Actually Ethiopia was one of the few independent countries in Africa and Italy wanted to make it a colony. They might have had some trade with Japan but it sure wasn't a "satellite."

2.) If Italy was on the Allied side, that would have pushed Stalin to the side to Hitler. And that would have been scary.

What are you talking about? Russia was supplying Hitler up until 1941. The article above is talking about the start of the war. Later the US made the Alaska highway in preparation for a Russian invasion. Sure we became alleys but just.

The only thing that made Russia an ally was Hitlers blunder on June 22, 1941. It had nothing at all to do with Italy.
 

Zzarchov

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I don't think you get my drift, Italy was vehemently ANTI-Communist. If it were a major allied power, there would be no way they would side with the soviets. Russia didn't really care too much about Italy.