Palestinian - Why Mahmoud Abbas’s U.N. statehood bid is great for Israel -- and the U

[damngrumpy]

I find this interesting, first of all if Palestine were admitted it would bring some order to
their behavior as they would have to be responsible to a recognized world authority.
Palestine as an entity would also for the Arab States of the dime to see Palestine as
an entity rather that a victim they can speak for while continuing their quarrel with
Israel. Yes it would give the Palestinians a voice but it would come with a demand for
restraint and responsibility and that would ensure that both sides would have to talk in
an honest fashion something neither do at the moment.
I also find it troubling that America would veto the measure to allow recognition. After
all America was the first nation to recognize Israel if they did the same for Palestine it
would allow America much more stature in the region and they could be more of a peace
broker than ever. Is it not America that is trying to reach out to the world to lift up the
oppressed and disadvantaged? We hear that all the time so, is it not so and just for show?
This recognition would take Palestine from victim to self respect and at the same time limit
the behavior of the radicals within the movement and it would give the nation of Palestine
a measured place in the world that could lead to peace. Good God we wouldn't want
peace would we?

 

[MHz]

I also find it troubling that America would veto the measure to allow recognition.

I find it troubling that you don't find it troubling that the US would push for several items to never be brought before the ICC. Know what I mean?

 

[Just the Facts]

So while you guys were busy talking about dragging Israel "kicking and screaming if necessary" to a table that were already sitting at all along, Abu Mazen just walked in and snatched the table, lol.

It seems to me this UN decision is the final nail in the coffin of Oslo, which erases the PA, which ironically vaporized Abbas's office and authority.

 

[Goober]

So while you guys were busy talking about dragging Israel "kicking and screaming if necessary" to a table that were already sitting at all along, Abu Mazen just walked in and snatched the table, lol.

It seems to me this UN decision is the final nail in the coffin of Oslo, which erases the PA, which ironically vaporized Abbas's office and authority.

I do not see it that way. Abbas has no room to move- Israel did not want to negotiate - as described today in an article- 2 sides arguing over how to split a pizza while one guy fill his face.

Where has Oslo gotten so far. PLO have turned away from violence.

 

[Spade]

Those voting against the resolution:
Israel, United States, Canada, Czech Republic, Panama, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, and Palau
- Not all household names

Some help here from the article on client states from Wiki.
"The three Pacific ocean countries associated with the United States under the Compact of Free Association (the Federated States of Micronesia, the Marshall Islands and Palau) may fall somewhat in this category."

 

[MHz]

So while you guys were busy talking about dragging Israel "kicking and screaming if necessary" to a table that were already sitting at all along, Abu Mazen just walked in and snatched the table, lol.

It seems to me this UN decision is the final nail in the coffin of Oslo, which erases the PA, which ironically vaporized Abbas's office and authority.

And ............ What you think something new can't arise from the ashes? (so to speak) What about a party with OPEC bankrolling their 'wants' and desires via a small permanent jump in the price of raw oil and administered without the World Banks dictating any terms. The money stopped when Israel grabbed the bank accounts long ago, probably a war crime in that limits were placed on food and humanitarian wants when the money was there.

 

[damngrumpy]

Of course Canada would vote against it, they always vote for the country holding the leash
on this one. See Canada is far to big to be a lap dog but we are still on a leash because
we refuse to stand up for ourselves under the present administration.
As for not siding with Israel I have in many cases on this forum but there are times where
they are not consistent and I can't support that. The only way to get something done is
have both sides recognized on the world stage.

 

[MHz]

Those voting against the resolution:
Israel, United States, Canada, Czech Republic, Panama, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, and Palau
- Not all household names

Some help here from the article on client states from Wiki.
"The three Pacific ocean countries associated with the United States under the Compact of Free Association (the Federated States of Micronesia, the Marshall Islands and Palau) may fall somewhat in this category."

A few wishy washy nations in there it seems, no big surprise. and not all Nations would vote the same today in a secret vote

UN 181 In favour: 33

Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussian S.S.R., Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxemburg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukrainian S.S.R., Union of South Africa, U.S.A., U.S.S.R., Uruguay, Venezuela.

Of course Canada would vote against it, they always vote for the country holding the leash
on this one. See Canada is far to big to be a lap dog but we are still on a leash because
we refuse to stand up for ourselves under the present administration.
As for not siding with Israel I have in many cases on this forum but there are times where
they are not consistent and I can't support that. The only way to get something done is
have both sides recognized on the world stage.

Here I though being 1/10 the population of any foe is what made us into a lap-dog, for being independent we sure don't ignore the phone when we know the Queen is on the other end. (even knowing they have handlers themselves)

The First Nations, Gaza and the West Bank are the ones who never became lap-dogs.

 

[Just the Facts]

I do not see it that way. Abbas has no room to move- Israel did not want to negotiate - as described today in an article- 2 sides arguing over how to split a pizza while one guy fill his face.

Articles are fine, but what are the facts? Seems to me Bibi has stated repeatedly that he's more than willing to talk. He even agreed to pre-conditions in 2009 in order to start negotiatians. What happened in that round, do you recall? I don't.

Where has Oslo gotten so far. PLO have turned away from violence.

It's gotten the PA and the Palestinian police force, plus legitimized the PA leading to Billions in foreign aid (just ask Mrs. Arafat). That's largely the point though, isn't it? The Palestinians were happy to benefit from Oslo, but when it came to the nitty gritty, they stood there with their arms folded and demanded concessions BEFORE negotiating. That's not generally how it works.

For all intents and purposes, as of today, the PA no longer exists.

 

[Spade]

Quick Fact
Nauru in the South Pacific has no designated capital and a population of 9322.

 

[Goober]

Articles are fine, but what are the facts? Seems to me Bibi has stated repeatedly that he's more than willing to talk. He even agreed to pre-conditions in 2009 in order to start negotiatians. What happened in that round, do you recall? I don't.



It's gotten the PA and the Palestinian police force, plus legitimized the PA leading to Billions in foreign aid (just ask Mrs. Arafat). That's largely the point though, isn't it? The Palestinians were happy to benefit from Oslo, but when it came to the nitty gritty, they stood there with their arms folded and demanded concessions BEFORE negotiating. That's not generally how it works.

For all intents and purposes, as of today, the PA no longer exists.

The PA asked for new construction of settlements to stop- I believe they were in areas that was already agreed upon as PA land. Not sure on that. But 96 % of the land and borders has been agreed to.
And Jerusalem will be split.

Abbas has turned his back on a major sticking point -Right of Return. Gone from the table. He wants to talk.

I think Israel will - In time.
As to funding as long as the PA does not go thru the ICC and possibly some other UN agencies the US - Canada etc will stabilize their funding. The only real and productive choice - any other and we are back to the bombs again. Remember the 2 Intifada's. And Israel loses again. On the world stage.
Time to get the deal done while Abbas is in power.
Then the problem is Hamas.

First Intifada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Second Intifada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Just the Facts]

So what's up with the last 4%?

 

[Goober]

So what's up with the last 4%?

Split the Capital for one. Not sure on the rest. But a deal can be done.

Split the Capital for one. Not sure on the rest. But a deal can be done.

Found this

http://bakerinstitute.org/publications/BI-pub-IPTerritorialEndgame-020210.pdf

Final Borders of Israel & Palestine?
The following map is based on the prospective final settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian dispute in which Israel's border would move to the 1967 border with modifications that would take in approximately 70-80% of the Jewish settlers. The new border, roughly along the line the current security fence is being constructed, would run close to the Green Line for most of the border except where it is necessary to enclose the six largest settlements in the West Bank. Even with those bulges, the new border of Israel would require the annexation of only about 5% of the West Bank. In past negotiations, Israel has expressed a willingness to compensate for any such annexation by giving territory elsewhere to the Palestinian state. If Israel were to withdraw to the borders suggested below, the Palestinian state would look much like the Clinton plan envisioned.

 

[MHz]

Quick Fact
Nauru in the South Pacific has no designated capital and a population of 9322.

Already I want to invade. lol

Why would the 3 picture be the point negotiations start from. The pic below ha the borders the Rothschild movement originally wanted, what's missing?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwone/middle_east_01.shtml

Employing bags of gold, the diplomacy of Lawrence of Arabia, and promises of Arab independence, the British had encouraged an Arab uprising in 1916 against the Turks. Although the Hashemite Arabs were rewarded with considerable territory, they and other Arab nationalists believed that they had been 'robbed' when the British did not fully deliver on their pledges of independence. They believed that the western powers, especially the British, had acted with arrogance, drawing borders and creating nations with little or no regard for the wishes of the local inhabitants.
The fate of Palestine, occupied by the British, especially provoked Arab frustration and anger. (In 1917 the British Foreign Secretary, Arthur Balfour, had supported a Jewish home in Palestine.)

 

[darkbeaver]

Of course Canada would vote against it, they always vote for the country holding the leash
on this one. See Canada is far to big to be a lap dog but we are still on a leash because
we refuse to stand up for ourselves under the present administration.
As for not siding with Israel I have in many cases on this forum but there are times where
they are not consistent and I can't support that. The only way to get something done is
have both sides recognized on the world stage.

Hey, the only functioning world stage is the power of money and it's rotten children aircraft carriers and bombs. Next you will no doubt profess to believe in the vaporous benevolent international community.

 

[earth_as_one]

Yes the land offered in compensation turned out to be a toxic waste dump, which was uninhabitable and not even equal in size to the prime farmland that Israel seized illegally.

The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region's scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new "independent state" would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called "bypass roads" that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

The Myth of the Generous Offer

 

[Spade]

Another one of the nine states voting against the General Assembly resolution on Palestine was Palau - a series of islands under American protection in the western Pacific with a population of 20 956.

 

[earth_as_one]

Quick Fact
Nauru in the South Pacific has no designated capital and a population of 9322.

Another one of the nine states voting against the General Assembly resolution on Palestine was Palau - a series of islands under American protection in the western Pacific with a population of 20 956.

And yet these tiny nations had no trouble getting UN recognition. Its a good thing these people don't live on land God gave to Zionists.

 

[MHz]

What could the US even threaten them with, exile would hardly be a hardship for them. Probably be the new 'little Havana' for the elite of the elite.

 

[earth_as_one]

The Harper government has embarassed Canadians on the world stage by voting in favor of Israel's continued oppression of Palestinians and against Palestinian freedom and justice.

Only nine countries voted against the Palestinian Authority's bid to have its status in the UN upgraded to
state recognition. (CBC News)
Palestinian UN statehood bid gets thumbs up - World - CBC News


"Spain will vote 'yes' tomorrow to the Palestinian request in line with our history," Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo told parliament, adding Madrid's support to that of France and several other European countries.

Spain believed the Palestinian bid to upgrade its rank from a UN General Assembly observer entity to that of a non-member observer state was the best way to move towards peace, he said.

"We would have preferred as a government if we had not been obliged to arrive at a vote because that would have meant that peace negotiations had advanced," he said.

.:Middle East Online::After France, Spain backs enhanced UN status for Palestinians :.

France came through Tuesday when Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius told Parliament in Paris that the country will vote "yes" on the resolution.

"We tried very hard to win the largest number of European countries to vote in favour," Mansour said. "We are delighted that a certain number have declared their support to our draft resolution including France and other key European countries, and I don't want to name them."

Portugal will also vote yes and Switzerland will likely back the resolution,

France announces plan to recognize Palestinian state at UN | CTV News

...Experts on international law say that, armed with the mass diplomatic recognition of the 150 or so nations it counts as supporters, Palestine will be in a position to bring cases against Israel, which has occupied the land defined as Palestine — the West Bank and the Gaza Strip — since 1967.

The ICC, as it’s known, is on record as inclined to regard Israel’s more than 100 residential settlements on the West Bank as a crime of war. (The Jewish state pulled its settlers and soldiers out of Gaza in 2005 and argues that it no longer qualifies as its “occupier” under international law. Critics argue otherwise.) The physical presence of the settlements in other words would give Palestine a ready-made case to drag Israel before the court — or to threaten dragging it before the court. In the dynamics of the Israel-Palestine conflict, the real power lies in the threat. But in his last U.N. address, in September, Palestinian National Authority President Mahmoud Abbas began to lay the foundation for charges based not on the settlements but on the violent behavior of some individual settlers, who attack Palestinian neighbors and vandalize property and mosques. Settler attacks have skyrocketed in the past two years, according to U.N. monitors, and now account for the majority of the political violence on the West Bank, despite the lingering popular impression of Palestinian terrorism dating back decades. On the West Bank, at least, the reality has changed.

Why Palestine Won Big at the U.N. | TIME.com