Looking Back on the Avro Arrow

[#juan]

That's awesome for you Juan.

I really don't care, mind you. It doesn't make you an authority on aircraft, let alone the Arrow. The facts betray the myths you keep posting.

No doubt. Look how many Canadians believe all the same silliness you've put forward.

Which we know is completely false.

I would say you know nothing bear. This has been your normal pattern. Any disagreement brings on the insults.
The subject is over fifty years old and it is unlikely there is any hard evidence to back up either side of any argument.
But who gives a sh_t! Whatever the reason, canceling the Arrow was a giant waste of money and that is my last
word on the subject. Now bugger off.

That's awesome for you Juan.

I really don't care, mind you. It doesn't make you an authority on aircraft, let alone the Arrow. The facts betray the myths you keep posting.

No doubt. Look how many Canadians believe all the same silliness you've put forward.

Which we know is completely false.

I would say you know nothing bear. This has been your normal pattern. Any disagreement brings on the insults.
The subject is over fifty years old and it is unlikely there is any hard evidence to back up either side of any argument.
But who gives a sh_t! Whatever the reason, canceling the Arrow was a giant waste of money and that is my last
word on the subject. Now bugger off.

 

[Liberalman]

The Avro Arrow should be built just to start up the industry again but Canada has to wait until the Conservatives are out of office just because they are known as America's Biitch It was the Conservatives that killed the Avro Arrow on the advice of the Americans years back.

 

[gerryh]

No doubt. Look how many Canadians believe all the same silliness you've put forward.

Which we know is completely false.

Wow, all these years and I hadn't realized that my Dad, who worked at orenda, had lied to me about the Arrow and the Iroquois engines. Am I ever glad you informed me of this. It's just too bad that he's dead now so I can't hit him with all you're words of wisdom and truth about how much he lied to me.

 

[CDNBear]

Didn't have much of a chance for that, did it?

Why would it? It wasn't needed, and other planes existed that could do the job and then some.

This has been a pattern in Canadian military expenditures for many decades. The reinvention of the wheel.

I would say you know nothing bear.

Of course you would.

This has been your normal pattern. Any disagreement brings on the insults.

Maybe you should stick to just reading what I wrote, instead of manufacturing something I didn't.

The subject is over fifty years old and it is unlikely there is any hard evidence to back up either side of any argument.

Not true.

But who gives a sh_t! Whatever the reason, canceling the Arrow was a giant waste of money and that is my last
word on the subject. Now bugger off.

See ya.

Wow, all these years and I hadn't realized that my Dad, who worked at orenda, had lied to me about the Arrow and the Iroquois engines. Am I ever glad you informed me of this. It's just too bad that he's dead now so I can't hit him with all you're words of wisdom and truth about how much he lied to me.

You're welcome.

 

[Nuggler]

It's a good review Bear. I lament the same thing that the author does. We could have had one of the best aerospace industries in the world with all those smart folks working and creating new designs.

And it's not to say that we don't have good companies out there today, it's the difference in what we could have had.

Pretty much sums up the lamenters laments. including mine. coulda woulda shoulda. Aw well. Dief was still a dork to cancel it. Nonetheless. regardless. Maybe he knew the country couldn't afford it. Maybe not. Maybe we should stop giving a shi t. Not one ounce of shi t will be given today. Nor a gram. even. We only knew what was printed at the time in the newspapers. Great source of shi t.

 

[El Barto]

Bear , the Arrow had a few things to it that are common now to our planes . Say what you want , it still had some things that were way ahead of it's time.

 

[CDNBear]

Bear , the Arrow had a few things to it that are common now to our planes .

So did other planes in the same era. Some had already seen combat readiness shakedowns and been placed in service.

Say what you want , it still had some things that were way ahead of it's time.

Not really. There were advancements being made all the time, by many companies. In the end what Canadians believe about the Arrow, is a whole lot of hype.

 

[El Barto]

So did other planes in the same era. Some had already seen combat readiness shakedowns and been placed in service.

Not really. There were advancements being made all the time, by many companies. In the end what Canadians believe about the Arrow, is a whole lot of hype.

Fly by wire , and force feed back joysticks. that was a huge leap. What did the other planes have that was so innovative then?

 

[CDNBear]

Fly by wire , and force feed back joysticks. that was a huge leap. What did the other planes have that was so innovative then?

Proven capabilities, which is kind of important. With the GCI and weapons systems on board, the F106 was almost an autonomous aircraft.

But of course we would have to look at the fact that the technology had been around since the 30's, and the Arrow was only the first experimental aircraft to utilize both fly by wire and feedback. That's not really all that awesome, when you consider the fact that it's a neat option, but not all that important.

Not necessarily techy, but this sums up the issue nicely...

The Shotgun: Myth of the Arrow

 

[petros]

It was a pretty plane and a great achievement but this was our true shining glory that killed the Arrow that Dan Akroyd never got his mitts on (#Juan you are still # one for first hand input).

CSA - Alouette I and II

We'd have "Arctic Sovereignty' and SPP perimeter securrity in the bag with $158 Billion worth of satellites and 2 aircraft carriers to park our perfectly fine CF-18s on.

Hassle your MP for Alouette III

 

[CDNBear]

(#Juan you are still # one for first hand input).

If you like fiction I guess.

I listened to this a long time ago, I couldn't find the whole version for a while. Butt here it is, in full...

CBC Digital Archives - The Avro Arrow: Canada's Broken Dream - Debating the Arrow's legacy

Oh SNAP!!! Michael Bliss really sums up the psyche that continuously foists the myths of the Arrow, lol.

Americanizing, lmao!!!

 

[Locutus]

Proven capabilities, which is kind of important. With the GCI and weapons systems on board, the F106 was almost an autonomous aircraft.

But of course we would have to look at the fact that the technology had been around since the 30's, and the Arrow was only the first experimental aircraft to utilize both fly by wire and feedback. That's not really all that awesome, when you consider the fact that it's a neat option, but not all that important.

Not necessarily techy, but this sums up the issue nicely...

The Shotgun: Myth of the Arrow

More here:

Myths are public dreams, dreams are private myths | Taylor Empire Airways

 

[CDNBear]

More here:

Myths are public dreams, dreams are private myths | Taylor Empire Airways

Already in my bookmark files, lol.

Thanks though.

 

[#juan]

Fly by wire , and force feed back joysticks. that was a huge leap. What did the other planes have that was so innovative then?

Other planes were not all innovative or that good.

To make up for the cancelled Arrow we bought a couple hundred CF-104s. About half of these were lost for
one reason or another. A dozen or so of our pilots were also lost.

We also bought a 70 or 80 F-101 Voodoos.
The Voodoos used to fly apart for one reason or another I hope we scrapped those that were still flying.

Thank God for Martin Baker

 

[CDNBear]

Other planes were not all innovative or that good.

American style jingoism doesn't suit you Juan.

 

[L Gilbert]

The Avro Arrow should be built just to start up the industry again but Canada has to wait until the Conservatives are out of office just because they are known as America's Biitch It was the Conservatives that killed the Avro Arrow on the advice of the Americans years back.

lmao The Arrow could not make it these days without massive inputs of money that we do not have.
BTW, you speak of Con gaffes and I'd like to remind you of the Gliberal gaffe - the dipsh|t firearms registry.

Why would it? It wasn't needed, and other planes existed that could do the job and then some.

If it wasn't needed, why would other planes be needed to be also not needed?
The Blackbird isn't needed at this point in time either, but did the Yanks can the entire issue? Nope.

This has been a pattern in Canadian military expenditures for many decades. The reinvention of the wheel.

I agree, but the Arrow could have been a better wheel, IMO. Judging by the emergence of other Delta-winged aircraft since, I am right.

There were advancements being made all the time, by many companies. In the end what Canadians believe about the Arrow, is a whole lot of hype.

And that trend continues today. Some developments continue and some don't. But no-one with any sense scraps ideas and things with possible benefits.

Didja read the list of achievements the Arrow project accomplished and are still in use today?

Proven capabilities, which is kind of important. With the GCI and weapons systems on board, the F106 was almost an autonomous aircraft.

But of course we would have to look at the fact that the technology had been around since the 30's, and the Arrow was only the first experimental aircraft to utilize both fly by wire and feedback. That's not really all that awesome, when you consider the fact that it's a neat option, but not all that important.

Not necessarily techy, but this sums up the issue nicely...

The Shotgun: Myth of the Arrow

Fly-by-wire just a gimmicky option? roflmao

 

[#juan]

.

All kinds of aircraft were available but Canada picked the Canadair Sabre. There were lots of planes that were
faster but Canada, with the Sabre won the NATO gunnery competition almost every year we entered in the time frame
of 1956-1962.

 

[The Old Medic]

As the article points out, the Arrow was able to perform one mission, and ONLY one mission. Changing its avionics, etc. would make no difference at all, it was al all-or-nothing supersonic interceptor.

The BIG mistake, as was pointed out, was that AVRO decided to go slowly in its development of other aircraft, and it lost its market. It's hard to compete, when 99% of what you have is a "concept", while others are building actual test aircraft.

 

[CDNBear]

If it wasn't needed, why would other planes be needed to be also not needed?

They came before the Arrow, and actually were multi role platforms.

I agree, but the Arrow could have been a better wheel, IMO. Judging by the emergence of other Delta-winged aircraft since, I am right.

The delta wing had nothing to do it.

But no-one with any sense scraps ideas and things with possible benefits.

Let me know when you have definite benefits.

Fly-by-wire just a gimmicky option? roflmao

I wasn't talking about fly by wire. I was talking about the feedback.

All kinds of aircraft were available but Canada picked the Canadair Sabre. There were lots of planes that were
faster but Canada, with the Sabre won the NATO gunnery competition almost every year we entered in the time frame
of 1956-1962.

Cool.

I never said we shouldn't be proud. I just think we should be honest, especially with ourselves.

 

[Liberalman]

lmao The Arrow could not make it these days without massive inputs of money that we do not have.
BTW, you speak of Con gaffes and I'd like to remind you of the Gliberal gaffe - the dipsh|t firearms registry.

The fire arms registry is for another thread this is about the American boot licking Conservatives that take their marching orders from the good ole US of A like closing the Iran office to appease the Americans. The Avro Arrow will have to wait till a Canadian federal political party gets elected.