Kyoto Treaty Hypocrisy Analyzed ???

[jimmoyer]

Do any of you know how hard it is not to be an environmental hypocrite ?

Go ahead, gas up your cars, turn your air conditioners on, dutifully put your trash out everyday for pickup, add more electrical outlets in your old home because of course you need them all.

Meanwhile make sure the other guy does what you can't do personally.

This is basically an unfair argument to you all, because of the system we are in, but when it comes to the hard choices of creating more cost and inconvenience to yourselves, then you do have an idea what you are asking of others, even of the corporate dog-eat-dog world of global competition.

The car companies will eventually see the profit in selling you a "green" car, but they got to make the hard decisions on how to accomplish that, how to create the market for it, how to have the costs paid for AND make a profit, for none of you have done any less in your own lives.

 

[Said1]

Re: RE: Kyoto Treaty Hypocrisy Analyzed ???

Do any of you know how hard it is not to be an environmental hypocrite ?

Go ahead, gas up your cars, turn your air conditioners on, dutifully put your trash out everyday for pickup, add more electrical outlets in your old home because of course you need them all.

Meanwhile make sure the other guy does what you can't do personally.

This is basically an unfair argument to you all, because of the system we are in, but when it comes to the hard choices of creating more cost and inconvenience to yourselves, then you do have an idea what you are asking of others, even of the corporate dog-eat-dog world of global competition.

The car companies will eventually see the profit in selling you a "green" car, but they got to make the hard decisions on how to accomplish that, how to create the market for it, how to have the costs paid for AND make a profit, for none of you have done any less in your own lives.

How do you know? Some try harder than others. The only thing I'm guilty of is putting my garbage Sunday night.

 

[jimmoyer]

Really ?

What about when you flush your toilet, turn on the air conditioner, gas up your car, turn on the lights, keeping your refrigerator on, gas up your car again, and how much garbage is that on a Sunday night ---- anything in there to feed Cambodia ?

Maybe that coal fired plant or the nuclear power plant is making sure some of the conveniences you use is out of sight out of mind ?

You got the budget for some solar panels, or a windmill ?

But you know, I'm thinking about how many garbage bags, and is it the Hefty hefty kind or the wimpy wimpy bags and do you use those wire twisties ?

I don't know...
I well uh, just, don't know how...

Wait.

Another thought was being beamed in.

Nope.

Just static.

 

[Said1]

Re: RE: Kyoto Treaty Hypocrisy Analyzed ???

Really ?

What about when you flush your toilet, turn on the air conditioner, gas up your car, turn on the lights, keeping your refrigerator on, gas up your car again, and how much garbage is that on a Sunday night ---- anything in there to feed Cambodia ?

Maybe that coal fired plant or the nuclear power plant is making sure some of the conveniences you use is out of sight out of mind ?

You got the budget for some solar panels, or a windmill ?

I was referring to the original list, but since you asked, I will answer. I don't own a car, proably never will at this point. Iusually have one bag of garbage, rarely waste food - too many mouths to feed. I don't own an air conditioner, but I do flush the toilette.

As for the solar panels, I think my landlady would have a fit if I messed with the roof and, she hates me enough as it is. I would look into a windmill, but my yard probably wouldn't accomodate that either.

Any more questions?

Like I said, some try harder than others. Some don't try at all.

 

[Said1]

But you know, I'm thinking about how many garbage bags, and is it the Hefty hefty kind or the wimpy wimpy bags and do you use those wire twisties ?

I don't know...
I well uh, just, don't know how...

Wait.

Another thought was being beamed in.

Nope.

Just static.

I don't know what brand of garbage bag I use and, I stick with a knot. Those stupid twist ties are a pain, but they can be used for all sorts of things when making crafts.

 

[jimmoyer]

Hmmm....

I'm thinking about what you said.

?

Nope.

Got nothing.

Wait.

Incoming.

Naah...just more static from the Mother Ship.

I don't think I need to report back.

Well...

I guess you are trying harder than others, and ....

uh

I'm finding this difficult to admit, but um, I got an air conditioner, I fill gas up in my Isuzu rodeo, and Chrysler van, and damnit, I'm caught up in all of this, and god the waste, the everlasting hefty bags, freezer burn on my lima beans, crap.

 

[Said1]

Re: RE: Kyoto Treaty Hypocrisy Analyzed ???

Hmmm....

I'm thinking about what you said.

?

Nope.

Got nothing.

Wait.

Incoming.

Naah...just more static from the Mother Ship.

I don't think I need to report back.

Well...

I guess you are trying harder than others, and ....

uh

I'm finding this difficult to admit, but um, I got an air conditioner, I fill gas up in my Isuzu rodeo, and Chrysler van, and damnit, I'm caught up in all of this, and god the waste, the everlasting hefty bags, freezer burn on my lima beans, crap.

What were you expecting me to say? I'm sure I would be more wastful if I knew how to drive and had more money. My efforts in conservation are probably just a coincidence, related to my financial situation.

And lima beans! Good God man, I hope you were at least eating MEAT with them.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Do any of you know how hard it is not to be an environmental hypocrite ?

Yup.

Go ahead, gas up your cars, turn your air conditioners on, dutifully put your trash out everyday for pickup, add more electrical outlets in your old home because of course you need them all.

Cars need gas, but some of us have been pushing for an alternative for a very long time and do our best to conserve.

I don't have an air conditioner. I do have blinds on my windows and trees in my yard to keep the sun from heating the place up.

My trash gets picked up once a week. We recycle and compost as much as possible.

Electricity here is generated by hydro. I still conserve as much as possible because watt we sell south is one less watt generated by burning coal.

Have you taken the One Ton Challenge, Jim? Everybody should. Even if you hate the environment, it will save you money and make you more comfortable in the long run.

 

[jimmoyer]

I agree with you Reverend. I have no idea about the 1 ton challenge. Hell, I probably got a 5 ton challenge.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Kyoto Treaty Hypocris

You likely do, Jim. Give the challenge[ a shot though.

 

[Jay]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/07/06/martin-g8050706.html


"Bush also noted that heavy-polluter nations such as India and China don't belong to the accord group."

 

[LeftCoast]

I think what the writer of this article is missing (or misrepresenting) is that Europe long before 1990 began to make changes for a more sustainable environment. Since the price of "petrol" is so high in Europe, European cars are already far more efficient, smaller and driven less than American equivalents. Public transit use in Europe is much higher. France's electrical generation in primarily nuclear (which has its own environmental issues but at least is "clean" from a GHG perspective). European homes tend to be older so heating is a big user of fuels, but use few people in hot southern Europe have air conditioning. Americans in California, Arizona and Texas wouldn't think of living without A/C in the summer time, but Italians and Spanish do.

It is much harder to make big reductions in a society that is already very clean. However when you are strictly looking at percentage increases and decreases it is not as obvious.

 

[Jo Canadian]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/07/06/martin-g8050706.html


"Bush also noted that heavy-polluter nations such as India and China don't belong to the accord group."

True. China has horrible pollution problems. I read an article about 3-4 weeks ago on the issue and it wasn't pretty. Unfortunately I've been trying to find the damn thing again and can't find it for the life of me. The part about the water that burns was what got my attention.

 

[Jay]

http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/environment/wasting_away.htm

" 15% of deaths in China are due to poor air quality.
4 - 5% of deaths are through diseases caused by water pollution.
Most of the surface and ground water in cities and in the countryside is polluted.
Only 5% of household waste and 17% of industrial waste receives any treatment before entering the environment.
About 20% of agricultural land has been lost to soil erosion and economic development over the last decade. "


http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,1283402,00.html

"China produces an estimated 60 billion tonnes of polluted water a year. The saga of the Huai river, as recounted by Economy, is an example of how things go wrong. The size of England, the fertile Huai valley is home to 150 million people. Under Mao, 200 dams were built to stop flooding - 200,000 people drowned when two collapsed in 1973. After Deng changed China's course at the end of the 1970s, tens of thousands of factories set up along the river and its tributaries. In 1994, some tanks were emptied into the river, flooding it with toxins, turning the water black, killing 26 million lbs of fish and making thousands of people ill. Five thousand factories were shut down; half subsequently re-opened. "


And people just hammer away at the USA for not signing Kyoto.....what a waste of time.

I wouldn’t think people were so anti-American of they discussed the big issues rather than simply focusing on the USA.

 

[Jo Canadian]

It would help though if the US put an effort into trying. At least this Hemisphere would be slightly cleaner.

If they were to take the lead in an issue like this, there would be more of a popular following from other countries that aren't currentley involved. Other countries right now aren't even going to bother because if the US aint gunna do it why should they?

Think dominos.

 

[TenPenny]

Only 5% of household waste and 17% of industrial waste receives any treatment before entering the environment.

Picture this: a government office building. People are using computers, cell phones, faxes. The washrooms look similar to what you'd find all over North America, except for two things: all of the waste runs in an open trough from one end to the other. (Make sure that when you go, you're on the upstream end of the trough). And the other is...beside each toilet is an open basket. Into which you put all of your (USED) paper waste. If you know what I mean. This was 3 yrs ago.

Yes, there's a lot that could be done to reduce pollution if you were interested.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Kyoto Treaty Hypocris

China is a problem, but there are a couple of things that always seem to get missed. They are slated to join Kyoto in 2012 and they have been showing at least the beginnings of trying to solve some of their environmental problems. They are buy R-2000 pre-fab houses from Canada. They are looking for alternatative energy. They are seeking new technologies.

Since China has very little infrastructure in place, they can also avoid a lot of our problems. Fuel cell cars are easier for them to adapt to for instance. They simply do not have such a developed infrastructure of gas stations so it matters very little if they build stations for dispensing gas or for dispensing hydrogen.

That's not to say they don't have a long way to go, but there are signs that they are at least trying.


The USA's stance that China and India have to first is childish and shows a complete unwillingness to accept responsibility for their own actions. The US is the most wasteful country on the planet. Their wealth is built on doing the same kinds of things that India and China are doing right now.

It wasn't that long ago that the US had rivers catching on fire. George Bush has been loosening regulations on everything having to do with pollution, including raising the allowable levels of arsenic in drinking water.

 

[Jay]

The US invents the green technology, and implements it.

China will have to come a long, long way to even dream of implementing something like Kyoto. It isn't going to happen 2012 or 2020...it's a pipe dream. The article I posted says 15% of people die from air pollution....good luck with that.

"It wasn't that long ago that the US had rivers catching on fire."

Another proof America doesn't need to sign on...there are no burning rivers in America now...

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Kyoto Treaty Hypocris

If Georgie keeps relaxing environmental regulations, the burning rivers will be back.

The US is not a leader in green technology and has little record of trying to implement what they have developed. Since most of the technology they do have was invented in the 1970's and has been sitting on the shelf ever since, it will take them a very long time to catch up to the rest of the developed world.

What's the percentage of Americans who die from air pollution, I wonder?

 

[no1important]

RE: Kyoto Treaty Hypocris

Air pollution from the combustion of fossil fuels (oil, coal, and natural gas) in cars, trucks, and power plants, is killing roughly 60,000 Americans each year, according to researchers at Harvard University's School of Public Health.This represents about 3% of all U.S. deaths each year.

If the Harvard researchers are correct in their estimate, that 60,000 Americans die each year from fine-particle pollution, and tens of thousands more are made sick (especially children), then we can calculate that, since 1979, nearly a million Americans (960,000) have been killed by fine particle pollution, and millions more have been made sick. Why can't we act to prevent this important problem? Because U.S. regulatory agencies--and the courts--have lost their way, searching for the holy grail of scientific certainty.

Read the rest here Not sure when it was written as no date on it.