Is It Time To Change The Way Employees Get Paid?

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
Do you really think if higher education were free, that there would be enough jobs available to earn that high salary?

I suppose if they don't have student loans to pay off, it really doesn't matter if they have an advanced degree in biology and they are working at a camping park...
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Do you really think if higher education were free, that there would be enough jobs available to earn that high salary?

I suppose if they don't have student loans to pay off, it really doesn't matter if they have an advanced degree in biology and they are working at a camping park...

And scrap the student loan program. What if, right after graduation, the student fails to find employment (through his own fault or no fault of his own is irrelevent here), or undergoes a traumatic life experience that prevents him from working, etc. In the end he's left with a debt, forgets what he learnt in school because he doesn't enter the workforce right after school, and in the end is worse off that without an education. Same position as before plus a student loan. I thought government was supposed to help people, not burden them with loans. Personally, I'd rather the government give nothing. But, if it insists on giving money for education, then give it, don't lend it. But give it only to the poor. But like I said, I'd rather the government not give it either, just saying that IF it gives it, then give it. The government should be there to help people, not profit from them.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
I think you misunderstood my question.

You were proposing a free education so earners would get high wages, which would make a minimum wage redundant.

My question is, do you think there would be enough high paying jobs to make your point salient?

Higher wages aren't constrained by the size of the pool of candidates for the job, they're constrained by the economy. At least so far as I'm aware.

If we subsidize all education (I'd really like that, as one who will be paying off a debt equal to a large European sedan very soon) then tax payers pick up the tab, and they don't necessarilly get anything for that if there aren't any jobs in that field.

Where does this place us on the marginal costs and marginal benefits?
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
I think you misunderstood my question.

You were proposing a free education so earners would get high wages, which would make a minimum wage redundant.

Then we may have misunderstood each other. I was not actually proposing free higher education necessarily. Though I'm not fundamentally opposed to the idea as such, I'd have to see the details of the proposal, and it would have to be damned good. I have my doubts. What I was saying though was that, in the abscence of free higher education, a minimum wage hurts the poor because it risks pricing them out of the market, which is even worse than working for a low salary.

I think what you were getting at is that even with universal free higher education, they still might not get a higher paying job. If so, then I could certainly agree with that.

My question is, do you think there would be enough high paying jobs to make your point salient?
If they learnt the right trades or professions, there would always be the possibility of creating jobs for themselves.[/quote]

To take a theoretical example (I'm not saying this would work necessarily, escept in specific circumstances according to the cultural context), the Doukhobors never need to worry about unemployment. They all learn from the community how to farm, how to build houses, all the encessaries of life. In this way, they can put themselves to work by building their own house with help from the local community through a relatively communal ifestyle (though from my understanding, not nearly as communal as before), produce their own food, etc.

Of course I'm not saying this would be reproduceable everywhere, but it would be interesting to study how that concept could possibly be applied, in some form or another, on a larger scale, ensuring that people learn skills that allow them to make their own work, worse comes to worse.

In fact, what if we did just that? At school, everyone must learn Doukhobor or Quaker studies, or something equivalent, including how to cook, build a house, agricultrue, etc. If they can't find work, then they'd have the option of claiming a piece of land for themselves, cut the trees, build the house (maybe find others in the same prdicament to work together), and start a farm. This would not replace charities, granted (they need to eat while the crops grow, and a place to sleep while the house is being built), but would at least reduce the dependence on charity. Hey, maybe not a good idea, I don't know. Just a brainstorm. But I'm sure you see my point. Recession or no recession, they could set out to work for themselves at least.

Higher wages aren't constrained by the size of the pool of candidates for the job, they're constrained by the economy. At least so far as I'm aware.

OK, above, I was talking about going to work for one's self, not necessarily involving any monetary transaction. Going back to wages, however, I'm not sure what you mean by 'constrained' here. Certainly, an expanded pool of qualified applicants could push wages down (applicants looking for limited jobs in their area of expertise, supply and demand), but it would also lower costs (if their salaries drop, then the costs of high tech equipment, medical care, etc. goes down too because all these skilled professionals have to take salary cuts).

If we subsidize all education (I'd really like that, as one who will be paying off a debt equal to a large European sedan very soon) then tax payers pick up the tab, and they don't necessarilly get anything for that if there aren't any jobs in that field.

What do you mean by subsidizing education? If you mean partially subsidizing it, then I'd be totally opposed to it, since that would mean that the poor who still can't pay their part still can't access it, while the middle and upper classes who can afford their part of the costs get their education subsidised. So I'm totally opposed to partial subsidization.

As for student loans, there is the risk that it could backfire (again, who's at fault is another matter) if the student can't find work after graduation, or goes through some radically life-changing events, etc. that could potentially leave him at square one with a debt. At that stage, the government hasn't done him a favour, but an ill deed. Government is not necessarily responsible for helping us, but it's certainly responsible for not harming us.

As for full subsidization (i.e. free education), I'm in two minds about that. As for compulsory education (i.e. elementary and high school), I'm all for it. As for higher education, I like the idea in principle, but you'd have to sell me on it. Where would the money come from? Government, charity, where? If government, then through what kind of taxes? And who decides what the student learns? How do we reasonably ensure that what he learns will benefit him? After all, if we scrap the ideas of partial subsidization and student loans, that leaves us with either no help from the government whatsoever or totally free higher education. That's expensive. If we go that route, again, I'm not opposed to it necessarily, but you'd really have to sell me on it.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
I think what you were getting at is that even with universal free higher education, they still might not get a higher paying job. If so, then I could certainly agree with that.

That is what I was getting at.

If they learnt the right trades or professions, there would always be the possibility of creating jobs for themselves.

Entrepeneurs are often realized when they become unemployed from their field. I don't think the majority of higher education would equip someone to start an enterprise without a few years of work in the field first.

In fact, what if we did just that? At school, everyone must learn Doukhobor or Quaker studies, or something equivalent, including how to cook, build a house, agricultrue, etc.

Heh, I'm studying agriculture. I'll have a BSc after this year in Agriculture. Even still, I'm working with a farmer this summer and I'm learning just as much as I did at school. I think it would be unwise to try to start a farm myself without some prior experience. I wasn't raised on a farm.

Going back to wages, however, I'm not sure what you mean by 'constrained' here.

I mean limited. The pool of qualified individuals is not what limits the number of jobs in that sector. The job market does.

Certainly, an expanded pool of qualified applicants could push wages down (applicants looking for limited jobs in their area of expertise, supply and demand), but it would also lower costs (if their salaries drop, then the costs of high tech equipment, medical care, etc. goes down too because all these skilled professionals have to take salary cuts).

How is that? I don't follow how the costs of x-ray equipment would drop for example, if there were an excess of x-ray medical technicians applying for jobs.
The end cost or cost per unit might go down, but the supplier of the equipment doesn't drop their price accordingly. These are fixed costs, at the time of purchase, no?

What do you mean by subsidizing education? If you mean partially subsidizing it, then I'd be totally opposed to it, since that would mean that the poor who still can't pay their part still can't access it, while the middle and upper classes who can afford their part of the costs get their education subsidised. So I'm totally opposed to partial subsidization.

If higher education is free, then I mean complete subsidization.

As for full subsidization (i.e. free education), I'm in two minds about that. As for compulsory education (i.e. elementary and high school), I'm all for it. As for higher education, I like the idea in principle, but you'd have to sell me on it. Where would the money come from? Government, charity, where? If government, then through what kind of taxes? And who decides what the student learns? How do we reasonably ensure that what he learns will benefit him? After all, if we scrap the ideas of partial subsidization and student loans, that leaves us with either no help from the government whatsoever or totally free higher education. That's expensive. If we go that route, again, I'm not opposed to it necessarily, but you'd really have to sell me on it.

I like it, only because I'm going to be paying soon ;) Realistically I don't think Canadians would be in favor of picking up my tab, as well as the other million or so university students across the country who use student loans.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Well, it might seem like I'm proposing an all-or-nothing scenario, and indeed I am. If the government inists on parliat subsidization, I say cut it altogether, as that only benefits the middle-to-upper classes, not the poor. As for student loans, again I'm totally opposed to them as they risk ruining a student's life, either through his own fault or no fault of his own, either way, if he fails to find work or other life event causes him to default or go bankrupt. Too risky, and the govenrment should not engage in activities that could potentially ruin the lives of some of its citizens. 0% interest student loans, even if in default? Maybe, but I'd have to really, really think about that one.

For these various ethical reasons, I'd still say all or nothing, though I'm not sure which camp I'm in there. Partial subsidies or student loans are the worst case scenario as that benefits specifically those who can pay the difference.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
For these various ethical reasons, I'd still say all or nothing, though I'm not sure which camp I'm in there. Partial subsidies or student loans are the worst case scenario as that benefits specifically those who can pay the difference.

To try to make it easier for you, no subsidies at all also mean there will be a few that can actually pay for the cost of school.

The wages for students aren't high enough, the available part time employment not sufficient enough, to make sure all students could work their way through these costs. Some would be left out...
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
To try to make it easier for you, no subsidies at all also mean there will be a few that can actually pay for the cost of school.

The wages for students aren't high enough, the available part time employment not sufficient enough, to make sure all students could work their way through these costs. Some would be left out...

And this is where we run into problems. If we don't subsidise at all, many poor students won't have a chance to go to university, and some fo teh lower middle class either. Those who can afford it, however, would pay out of their own pockets, though they'd also have the satisfaction of knowing that, with fewer graduates, that they'd have less competition and so higher salaries to compensate.

If we subsidize in part, then the middle class not only gets to go, but even benefits from a subsidy, while the loser class gets nothing! You see the ethical dilemma there? Why would we want to help a higher class and not a lower one?

As for subsidies, same thing. A kid from a middle class neighbourhood gets a loan, parental support, etc. graduates, and moves on. Froma lower class family, thre's a higher risk of ending up with family responsibilities, having to care for sibings or parents, etc. etc. etc. that increase the risk of some event that could cause their inability to pay off the debt. I'm not saying it's always the case, and could even be reversed between middle and lower class at times. I'm just saying that the risk factor is different. So again, it increases the benefit for the middle class, while potentially putting some members of the lower class at risk of default for various societal reasons.

This is why it would seem that the only fair solutions are either total subsidization, or zero subsidization, and no loans. Again, I'm still undecided between those two extremes.

By the way, I'm also opposed to student bus passes for similar reasons. Those who can afford an education get their bus passes subsidized too. What about those who, for whatever reason, don't go on to a higher education? Will their bus passes ever be so subsidized?

So if we go the zero subsidy route, that's the end of that story. If we go the absolute subsidy route (would that include a free bus pass? I don't know), then I'd have to think about it. I wouldn't mind paying the higher taxes necessarily, as long as we can be sure that the system is efficient and ensures a return on the investment while not risking the future well-being of citizens by burdening them with debt. So how would we pay the taxes? Income tax? Fair enough. If we wnt that route, that's likely the tax I'd propose. Or what about encouraging charity? Well, not a guarantee we'd get enough money to pay for all students. More people would be concerned with the destitute and how to get them on their feet than on those trying to get a higher education. But maybe something worth considering. And how would we ensure that they choose the right course for them and get a job afterwords? Co-op programmes? Would their university have to be paid for through an employer through a co-op programme?

Again, I'd be open to all those ideas, as long as it's a complete subsidy option. I could maybe see a situation whereby the government pays it through an employer with a, let's say, contract to work for the employer for five years after graduation and each summer until graduation (with the employer having to commit to it too). If he breaks the contract through any fault of his own, then he has to pay it back. But if not through his own fault, then it's free. This way we protect the student from a life of drowning in debt if something should happen, fail to find work, family responsibilities, etc.

Looking at it that way, I could even see the govenrment now forgiving student loans to students who may have suffered various forms of bad luck like not finding work, family responsibilities, psychological taumas, etc. etc. etc. After all, let's face it, the current student loan programme is totally insensitive to protecting the interest of citizens against risk. No government that cares for its population would put them through such risk.

Of course we'd have to work thorugh the details, but this might be an option. For example, a student graduates from high school and applies at a local elementary school to be a teacher. If the school accepts him, then it applies to the government, the government pays all his tuition, the school promisses him a job for five years after graduation, and of course he must work for the school too, and possibly at some kind of low salary during that time.

We could maybe do something similar with the private sector. If a student graduates from high school and applies at some high-tech company, and the company hires him, then the governemnt pays his tuition, he goes to univrsity, and then has to work for the company for five years. The company has to guarantee him a job too for those five years.

Granted this would mean our personal income taxes might increse, but it's something I might accept as it protects students from the risks of the debts from student loans. And like I said, considering how insensitively the governemtn had set it up, there might even be legitimate grounds to forgive certain student loans to students who, for certain categories of hardships, were not able to pay it back. This is the government's doing, and so it should take respnsibility for some cases without a doubt.

Doing such a free educaiton programme through employers would also ensure that students get a job afterwards so that society gets back form the investment.
 

mit

Electoral Member
Nov 26, 2008
273
5
18
SouthWestern Ontario
It is more important to focus on changes peoples attitudes as to why they get paid - It is either to make money for the company or to save more than your wage. Comapnies are not social enterprises - they have a fudiciary responsibility to make money and survive. Tying a CEO's salary to profits not stock prices may see a different turn of events for shareholders.
 

beevok

New Member
Jan 13, 2010
2
0
1
Well, I think companies should look into ways of making everyone feel like an owner.
A lot of companies keep their employees in the dark. Hence, what's the point in working hard to make someone else rich? No wonder customer service sucks.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
17,466
138
63
Location, Location
A possible solution to this is pay everyone a percentage of what the company gross profits on a monthly bases or a minimum wage and a percentage of the gross profits of the company.

The place I work, we get quarterly bonuses based on gross margins, and annual bonuses based on profit at the end of the fiscal year.

It's one of the benefits of a small business with a decent owner.