Is Iraq Finished as a Country?

[darkbeaver]

RE: Is Iraq Finished as a

A: there is no Iraqi government, there is an installed bunch of puppets
B: the war continues everyday and will as long as the invaders stay
C: they have no intention of leaving without the oil, it would accellarate thier decline, they must conquer the region
D: the infrastructure of Iraq was destroyed as a matter of policy, it is simply a tactic of terrorism to deny the enemy, it will never be rebuilt, only the oil has any importance, the people mean nothing in these American wars of democratization, a puppet government and a ruling elite is all Iraq will get from Uncle Sam just like all the others who were freed and saved from socialism
e: it would be simlpe if this were just the responsibility of one bad president, but it isn't, it's the collective guilt of every citizen of that country, they have allowed the carnage for all these years and still do, and would continue untill every terrorist was dead, you're either with them or against them, if you believe in medi-care you're a terrorist, if you believe in unions you're a terrorist, if you believe in arms reduction you're a terrorist, if you belive in Kyoto you're a terrorist, global warming= terrorist, public ownership= terrorist, birth control= terrorist, abortion=terrorist, gay marriage=terrorist, anti apple pie=terrorist, gun control=terrorist, and if you smoke grass=terrorist, fuel efficient cars=terrorist, public transportation=terrorist,
environmentalist=terrorist, agnostic=terrorist, don't believe an airliner hit the pentagram=terrorist, there is no end to the list, the price of freedom is blood, it's always someone elses though.

 

[Johnny Utah]

Re: RE: Is Iraq Finished as a

Iraq has already been pounded into the stone age and poisoned, murder and starvation are the order of the day and everythings been privatized (stolen). What do you think failure looks like JohhnyEinstien?

Oh Right Iraq was all Rainbows and Flowers under Saddam before the War, using Michael Moore talking points again are we?

I also see how you're allowed to insult me and somehow get away with it, talk about Bloody Hypocrisy.. :roll:

 

[#juan]

#juan,But when you think about it... now that the war has already happend what can we do to make sure things don't get worse. Can you not see if the USA leaves tomorrow they will leave a power vacum which one only make things worse and the frigile government in place right now, I highly doubt would last very long. Besides complaining about the war, what can be done about it?

Yeah the war has already happened, and things seem to get worse every day. As I said, fifty or sixty Iraqis are killed every week. Only two months ago it was twenty or thirty. That puppet government won't last an hour after the Americans leave. I think there is a chance Bush will be thrown out over this last mass killing scandal and his successor could make a lot of points by pulling out of Iraq and bringing the soldiers home. I don't think the Americans can do anything to improve the situation because their credibility is shot. Nobody trusts them.

 

[FiveParadox]

Re: RE: Is Iraq Finished as a

Johnny Utah[/i]¹]I also see how you're allowed to insult me and somehow get away with it, talk about Bloody Hypocrisy.. :roll:

:!: Non-author Revision : Formatting removed.

If one thinks that there has been an infraction of the Forum Rules or the Terms of Use, then one should use the X-Report function to report the post-in-question, rather than bringing the question before the open forum, before the Moderators have had the opportunity to review its content.

As for the issue of Iraq, I am left-wing, but I don't want the democratic institutions of Iraq to be ineffective; however, I do think that there is quite a large chance that this could be the case. I think that Iraq would be better off adopting a "semi-democratic" system, and moving to a more democratic system once the nation is ready to do so on its own initiative.

:!: Revision : (1) Revised quoted text.

 

[dekhqonbacha]

Re: RE: Is Iraq Finished as a Country?

First of all the inasion of Coalition forces was not right decision.
Because,

They need a strong secular dictator to keep it together.

However, now everything is messed up, Coalition forces should not leave the country on it's own. They have created all these problems, and now they have to stay there and bring back the peace.

If coalition forces were not intervined, there would be a revolution or coup d'etat which would withdraw the previous President from his powers. To do so all the oppositon parties, all the different nations had to unite. But they didn't have a common language when Coalition forces intervened. That's why different ethnic groups are trying to get power from Americans. It wouldn't happen if they were united and withdrawed the Dictatot from his power all together. They would form a coalition in the governement.

It's true that different ethnics groups were not enthusiastic to unite. Maybe they would if Dictatorship lasted longer. And because some ethnic groups were favorised, it would be diffucult to find common language.

 

[dekhqonbacha]

Sounds like The Lefties here want Iraq to fail, afterall if you had you're way Saddam would still be in power today leaving Iraq for Uday to oneday take control of..

...
They wouldn't have destroyed the water treatment plants, or the sewage treatment plants, and all the infrastruucture. ...

That is the strategy of war. Water supply should be stopped, if possbile if not it should be poisoned in order to force the "enemy" to resigh.

All the communication infrastructure roads, bridges, railroads, telephone cables should be destroyed, otherwise the "enemy's" communication might brign them the victory.

"enemy" is quoated because in this situation it's hard to tell who is the enemy.

 

[Johnny Utah]

Sounds like The Lefties here want Iraq to fail, afterall if you had you're way Saddam would still be in power today leaving Iraq for Uday to oneday take control of..

As I recall, about three hundred and fifty brave American troops surrounded Uday and his brother, and a young boy about twelve, and shot them full of holes. If I had my way, they wouldn't have killed a hundred thousand Iraqis. They wouldn't have destroyed the water treatment plants, or the sewage treatment plants, and all the infrastruucture. This war has been one cock up after another. How can you talk to people after you've killed their family? I'm sure most families in Iraq have lost someone.

So You're saying Uday and Qusay deserved to live? If you had you're way Uday or Qusay would be alive and oneday in control of Iraq which would have made Iraq even more dangerous then under Saddam. Thankfully things were not done you're way and Uday, Qusay are burning in hell..

Yeah before the Iraq War Iraq's Water treatment plants, sewage treatment plants and it's infrastructure was state of the art, using Michael Moore Fahrenheit 9/11 talking points are we? :roll:

 

[Toro]

RE: Is Iraq Finished as a

Maybe.

 

[#juan]

Show a little respect for your fellow posters Johnny, right now.

I believe it would have been better to have Uday and his brother on trial with their father.

As far as the infrastructure is concerned, it was certainly "state of the art" in the area and destroying it did not help to get Iraqis out of Kuwait. Even more infrastructure was destroyed during the "liberation". I'm sure this helped to win the hearts of all Iraqis.

The war is, and has been a royal cock up since day one.

 

[elevennevele]

It seems the Lefties have no faith in the Iraqi people to give them a real chance. Lefties will be proven wrong when History judges the ultimate outcome in Iraq..

History is already judging it.

It's ironic that things were bad in Iraq under Saddam, but things are worst under the USA. The actions already committed, define this as being true and are very much documented.

The USA has committed atrocity. "Atrocity" is the same as "atrocity" so it doesn't make it any difference if it was by the USA. Anybody who thinks otherwise is in a state of denial.

 

[jimmoyer]

History is already judging it.
-------------------------------elevennevele------------------

We microwave our food because we want it NOW !!!
We have 24x7 news because we want to know NOW !!

If Saddam was still in power, we simply would have
waited another 10 years to see what we see now
and perhaps even worse. Saddam would not have
been prevented from his goals.

Insurgency against Americans is increasingly a side show
to the sectarian violence. Far more are being killed
by the different groups of Iraq on a weekly basis.

And while the insurgency wanes and the sectarian
violence continues, the government of Iraq is evolving
and negotiating with each other.

 

[Johnny Utah]

Show a little respect for your fellow posters Johnny, right now.

Talk about "The Pot Calling The Kettle Black" :lol:

 

[jimmoyer]

Actually what Johnny Utah said about the western
liberal world having no faith in the Iraqis to sort this
out is a good point.

I guess the world thinks having a STRONG MAN running
the country hides the problem that this country must
face.

Just as when Tito fell, Yugoslavia fissured.

Strong Men hide the problems, but never solve them.

But out of sight out of mind, it seems for the voyeurs
of the news headlines.

 

[elevennevele]

#juan,But when you think about it... now that the war has already happend what can we do to make sure things don't get worse. Can you not see if the USA leaves tomorrow they will leave a power vacum which one only make things worse and the frigile government in place right now, I highly doubt would last very long. Besides complaining about the war, what can be done about it?

The concern of the US leaving was that Iraq would fall into civil war. Well it has. The other concern was that it would become an Islamic Theocracy/Dictatorship with a lean towards Iran. That is looking inevitable and to some extent, it has with the Shites as majority.

The whole experiment is blowing up just the same. The only thing the US seems to be doing most of the fighting for is corporate interest with the oil reserves. I guess that is what they can’t give up the most. That and their pride.

 

[jimmoyer]

Typical western blindness.

This western blindness comes in many forms.

1. All the problems were hidden and UNSOLVED
waiting to have its day under a STRONG MAN rule

2. The same egotism that got the US in Iraq is
the same egotism of the World thinking no further
damage will occur if we leave.

 

[Johnny Utah]

Re: RE: Is Iraq Finished as a Country?

Actually what Johnny Utah said about the western
liberal world having no faith in the Iraqis to sort this
out is a good point.

I guess the world thinks having a STRONG MAN running
the country hides the problem that this country must
face.

Just as when Tito fell, Yugoslavia fissured.

Strong Men hide the problems, but never solve them.

But out of sight out of mind, it seems for the voyeurs
of the news headlines.

I have faith in the Iraqi people since seeing them defy Terrorist threats to vote. I believe they will survive this turmoil no matter what the negative people have to say..

 

[FiveParadox]

I am not among those "negative" members, to be clear.

I hope that the democratic institution in the Republic of Iraq can persevere; however, I think that the nation would stand a much better chance to do so if it were moved to a more "reserved" democratic system for a time, until the people of Iraq are prepared to move to a true democratic system on their own initiative.

Democracy in Canada¹ was not brought to be in a day — I would suggest that this would be the same in a majority of nations on the world stage, and Iraq would be the same, in terms of a tried-and-true strategy on how best to implement democratic institutions in a nation.

:!: Revision : (1) Corrected a typing error.

 

[jimmoyer]

I agree FiveParadox that the evolution of democratic
government is going to take time.

The world is ready to leave them and take away their
time and chance at it.

 

[elevennevele]

Re: RE: Is Iraq Finished as a Country?

I agree FiveParadox that the evolution of democratic
government is going to take time.

The world is ready to leave them and take away their
time and chance at it.

For the USA to sort themselves out in their early democracy it took a civil war. Or maybe foreign powers should have come in there and delegated government over the north and south? Would the Americans at the time have welcomed intervention into their civil war?

I think some people fail to make the connection that it is the very presence of the US that has a lot to do with stroking the country into violence. How can the cause for so much wrong at the same time be the cure? Do you think all those people who have suffered under the US occupation are just going to turn the other cheek?

Does anybody here not have any imagination? To place themselves in their shoes? They never asked for intervention to begin with and if Canada were occupied, can you imagine how offensive that would be to every Canadian? It’s their country. We wouldn’t want people telling us how to fix our faults.

You folks are in denial. The same kind of denial people had with Vietnam. They say to learn from history, not to repeat it. I guess the US will need to repeat it to again learn from it. Until then, I’m sure a lot of you will clamor to send more of America’s children to their death via the Iraqi meat grinder.

You just can’t help people who at the same time you are harming.

 

[elevennevele]

Re: RE: Is Iraq Finished as a Country?

But I will regress to a point.

For all the destroyed infrastructure by the USA and the danger of sectarian violence that could lead to a genocide of sorts (because of the US), maybe some intervention needs to occur. Unfortunately it can’t be intervention by the US anymore, or it’s partners in the invasion of Iraq. It can’t be done by the perpetrators of such destruction.

What can be done about it now? Well, for starters, the USA could make a huge official public apology to the international community for being so wrong, and being so at fault for the whole Iraqi debacle. Then they can make a bigger official apology to the Iraqis for tearing their country apart on false pretenses.

Such admissions could then hopefully be used to leverage the international community to hold talks for some sort of international solution with the exclusion of US and coalition input into that solution, and the monies that the USA would have spent on the occupation could then also go to funding such an international effort in addition to some sort of penalty as compensation. The new international effort “if it can be agreed upon” would include the Arab countries playing a big role.

Better to try now than to try later.

This would all of course be put to a vote by the Iraqi people so they could be in consensus on the new effort that should include their input with many of the solutions and support for the withdrawal of American troops.

Again, the USA would have to be excluded from further involvement except through monetary compensation. That whole idea that the Iraqis have to pay for the US destruction of their country with their oil reserves is nothing but an insult to injury. Just as it makes no sense for the one who commits the crime to be able to use the victim's money to pay for the damages.

Of course this all has no chance in hell of ever happening, and aside from the USA being incapable of such apologies or taking such an unprofitable responsibility, they would never exclude themselves from any control of Iraq’s oil reserves.

Anyway, some were asking what could be done at this point. What could be the right thing to do at this point. The right thing for the Iraqis? or the right thing for the USA?