IRAN'S FASTEST UNDERWATER MISSLE

#juan

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EagleSmack wrote:
I would be surprised if any of the Iranian Aircraft would make it off the ground.

Fifty or 60 F-4 Phantoms. OK... those are Vietnam era planes and would not stand a chance. If every one of those planes got off the ground a carrier airwing would make quick work of them. It would be a Navy Pilot's DREAM. It would be like the F-4 Phantom going up against WWII aircraft. The same goes for the F-5.

The F-14's that they have were sold to them by the US before the Ayatollah Khomeni came into power. So that was the late 70's. I doubt many of them are operational if any of them are. If they are working they are 30 years behind the latest F-18's and F-14's.

Iraq had a nice airforce and all Iraq could do was try to get them to Iran so they would not be blown up on the ground. The Allies in Desert Storm had total air superiority from the start.

You know, the new fighters are not neccesarily faster, or even as fast as some of the older craft. The F-4 Phantom still enjoys a speed and altitude/ceiling advantage over the F-18. It depends a lot on the pilots and how the aircraft are used. I don't know how they might do and neither do you. For all I know, they might fill the aircraft with explosives and fly them into American ships. Who knows. The new Russian aircraft are certainly in the same ballpark in performance and weapons. The new Russian Fencer is an impressive aircraft but they have to use them.
 

darkbeaver

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Re: RE: IRAN'S FASTEST UNDERW

EagleSmack said:
darkbeaver said:
I think they would shut the diesels off before they submerge.

Well then I hope they are in shallow water then! :lol: Because with no engine power it is a quick trip to the bottom.

What do you think makes the props turn silly Beaver!

The batteries military genius.
 

EagleSmack

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And being faster and able to work at higher altitudes does not make it a better plane either.

Again, we are talking about 1960 technology going up against modern aircraft. There would not be a contest between an F-18 and an F-4. They were phased out of our arsenal in the 70's.

And if you fill them with explosives, meaning bombs your fuel consumption and speed advantage is gone... G-O-N-E. The F-4 would be easy prey to a carrier airwing. It would be a Turkey Shoot. They would not even be able to find the Carrier Group before they were jetisoning their bombs to get away from US Fighters and Missles.

The Russians have some very fast and highly manuverable aircraft but they are totally dependent on land based radar and guidance to get to their targets. So they look great at airshows (when they are not crashing into each other or the crowd) but you need the total air package to work.

In an all out war the Iranians would make every effort to hide what they have on the ground because they are dead if they fly.
 

#juan

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Never mind the bragging.

I said that if they use their aircraft right, they might be able to do some damage. I see no reason to think differently. I'm not cheering for them, but they should be taken seriously.
 

EagleSmack

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Re: RE: IRAN'S FASTEST UNDERW

darkbeaver said:
EagleSmack said:
darkbeaver said:
I think they would shut the diesels off before they submerge.

Well then I hope they are in shallow water then! :lol: Because with no engine power it is a quick trip to the bottom.

What do you think makes the props turn silly Beaver!

The batteries military genius.

The batteries!

How silly are you still. A sub cannot operate in a combat environment and turn props for any extended period of time with batteries.

And just because they have batteries doesn't change the fact that these vintage subs do not have any baffling features. The US sonar would be tracking them right when they left port. They would see them leave via satellite and they would be picked up immediatly by the US Attack Subs. They would be followed the whole time. Those old props would make such a racket.

Then this Cold War relic would have to find the US Carrier Group which is surrounded by smaller ships.

How do you charge the batteries genius? You have to surface! A sub on the surface is as good as dead. But that is irrelevant because it is as good as dead below the surface.

Why do you think the Russians sold them these subs? Because they are useless in modern warfare. They are good to have against another arab country or attacking defensless tankers but up against a US Fleet... adios Mohammed!

Silly Beaver... you're outmatched here and you know it.
 

EagleSmack

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#juan said:
Never mind the bragging.

I said that if they use their aircraft right, they might be able to do some damage. I see no reason to think differently. I'm not cheering for them, but they should be taken seriously.

There may be a little bragging but it is backed up by fact and common sense. Every Iraqi plane was tracked as soon as they fired up the engines and were pounced upon.

The only way they could do any damage was a miracle. An absolute miracle. They would be shot down before they even went "feet wet".

They'll have ZERO ground control and vectoring. They would have to just send their planes to where they think the US Fleet is and it will be out of range of their aircraft to begin with.

Oh they would be taken seriously. They would take a serious beating.
 

#juan

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EagleSmack wrote:
The batteries!

How silly are you still. A sub cannot operate in a combat environment and turn props for any extended period of time with batteries.

Eagle you are talking about something you know nothing about. Diesel/electric submarines are much quieter than the nuclear powered boats. The subs that the Iranians bought from Russia can do pretty well on their batteries. They could go for an hour and a half at twenty knots, or half that speed for close to six hours. In thirty minutes on the surface they can recharge the batteries. They can run at periscope depth indefinitely by snorkling.
 

Doryman

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#juan said:
EagleSmack wrote:
The batteries!

How silly are you still. A sub cannot operate in a combat environment and turn props for any extended period of time with batteries.

Eagle you are talking about something you know nothing about. Diesel/electric submarines are much quieter than the nuclear powered boats. The subs that the Iranians bought from Russia can do pretty well on their batteries. They could go for an hour and a half at twenty knots, or half that speed for close to six hours. In thirty minutes on the surface they can recharge the batteries. They can run at periscope depth indefinitely by snorkling.


Juan (and beaver) are right about this one. Diesel/electrics are much quieter than nukes. They can get in and wreak havoc on a nuclear sub fleet before the Americans would even find them

However, the yanks nuclear subs have a helluva lot of "endurance"; they can stay submerged for months if they want to. The diesel/electrics run out of electric juice after a little while, after which they have to surface, make noise, and be destroyed.

So, if it came down to a sub-on-sub engagement, the Iranians would have to go into "suicide mode" and try to slag as many US subs as possible before getting killed themselves.
 

Finder

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The f 14's which I believe 300 or 200 were sold to Iran in the 70's as you have correctly said, most of which are now unable to take off, with the right amount of spar parts. However it is expected that they may have anywhere between 6-30 operational. That in itself is not a big threat but the ability for these jets to carry exsisting missle systems is. one f14 can sink a ship pretty easy. So yes they are a threat.

Also 2k tanks as someone else pointed out if allowed to stay stationary and wait for the enemy will be easy targets, but two k tanks in a blitzkrieg attack on an unprepaired foe can be devistating.

Plus SAM's, SAS's and SCUDs and other balaitics.
 

EagleSmack

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Juan I have read countless number of books on submarines and submarine warfare. I also used to get Proceedings which is the US Navy magazine and they always had different articles about sub warfare and anti-sub warfare.

Nuke boats are quieter than diesels and they have advanced baffling that the old diesels do not. Those Iranian subs may as well be banging pots and pans with all of the noise they make.

Thirty minutes on the surface! Do you think that that is a short time! That is a death sentence. Being at periscope depth is a death sentence as well.

Subs belong below the surface and only be staying below the different thermal layers can they remain safe if they have not been found to begin with.

Those subs are ancient and the iranian sailors would become imploded fish food against US Attack Subs.

Don't be jealous now.
 

Finder

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Re: RE: IRAN'S FASTEST UNDERWATER MISSLE

EagleSmack said:
Juan I have read countless number of books on submarines and submarine warfare. I also used to get Proceedings which is the US Navy magazine and they always had different articles about sub warfare and anti-sub warfare.

Nuke boats are quieter than diesels and they have advanced baffling that the old diesels do not. Those Iranian subs may as well be banging pots and pans with all of the noise they make.

Thirty minutes on the surface! Do you think that that is a short time! That is a death sentence. Being at periscope depth is a death sentence as well.

Subs belong below the surface and only be staying below the different thermal layers can they remain safe if they have not been found to begin with.

Those subs are ancient and the iranian sailors would become imploded fish food against US Attack Subs.

Don't be jealous now.


Yes but the US Navy and Penigon has already issued a report saying one of the USA's biggest dangers to the merchant fleets is that of small cheap diesels subs. Perhaps they are not a big threat to war ships themselves but thats not really what the americans are worried about. Think of all the oil tankers in the area and how easy they are. The area is so small too that a sub just has to sit still on a route and just wait and they would never been spotted really.
 

darkbeaver

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RE: IRAN'S FASTEST UNDERW

Ya Juan, EagleSmack has read COUNTLESS numbers of books on submarines, he has advanced baffling as well and he's a world renowned expert on DU.
 

#juan

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September 2004

Sensor-Enhancing Software Helps Detect Diesel Submarines

by Brian Markle

U.S. military planners have become concerned that rogue states or terrorist groups may acquire Russian Kilo-class, diesel-electric submarines.

Diesel-electric submarines using air independent propulsion can remain submerged for extended periods , and unlike nuclear submarines, diesel-electric submarines can “bottom out” or rest on the ocean floor.

Since shallow coastal regions are complex and noisy, the detection of such diesel-electric submarines is not possible using traditional acoustic methods.

With air-independent propulsion, the fuel source and reused exhaust gases are combined in a closed loop to generate a submarine’s power. Current power plants include closed-cycle diesel engines and, more recently, fuel cells.

This form of propulsion, while not used by the United States, Britain or Russia, is used by smaller navies. It is considered ideal for small vessels, is cheaper to operate and makes the submarine more difficult to detect.

Diesel-electric submarines can provide a formidable challenge to current surveillance systems. The high ambient noise levels from local shipping traffic and marine life make passive sonar detection almost impossible in littoral waters.

The challenge of detecting diesel-electric submarines is best illustrated by an example from the Falklands War. During that conflict, the British Royal Navy could not defeat a single Argentinean diesel-electric submarine, although the British were highly experienced and released more than 150 weapons with no hits scored.

Low-frequency active sonar technology, such as the surveillance towed-array sensor system, may be an effective alternative to passive detection, but is politically disadvantaged because it has been reported to harm marine mammals.

Detecting submarines in littoral waters is comparable to locating landmines. It requires fusing data from a variety of sensors to pull the hidden signal out of the noise.

One of the technologies now being used by the German and Swedish navies to counter the threat of quiet submarines is a software architecture called the scalable generic signal processor, or scalable GSP.

The German Navy selected the scalable GSP technology for its new underwater acoustic analysis system, to be located at the Federal German Navy Hydroacoustic Analysis Centre.

The analysis system was designed to analyze the sonar records of the new U212A submarines, the U206A submarine, maritime patrol aircraft and fleet vessels.

The scalable GSP technology is built on an open-architecture cluster of parallel, off-the-shelf, general-purpose processors using Linux, an open-source operating system. The term “scalable” describes the ability of the control software to recognize and utilize the available processors, whether one, 10 or hundreds.

The data-processing rate may be increased with the addition of processors, without a need to re-write or recompile the software. Conversely, single processor failures simply reduce processing speed. Users can add their own software modules to meet specific needs, such as the introduction of classified algorithms.

The scalable GSP employs a “Lego” style technique that allows users to graphically modify existing applications or to construct new applications with building blocks of processing functions.

The technology has been adopted internationally for sonar applications, and has been used in synthetic aperture radar processing.

It's funny how the Royal navy fired a 150 torpedoes at Argentina diesel subs without a hit. The Royal Navy uses the same torpedoes as the U.S. do they not?

Brian Markle is the chief technology officer of Array Systems Computing Inc., a supplier of scalable generic signal processor technology, based in Toronto, Canada.
 

EagleSmack

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I would say that the British have their own subs and torpedoes.

Whether or not towed array sensors hurt marine life is irrelevant. US Subs used towed array systems. If you read the article you can see that technology exists to find these subs. The person that wrote the article is also pushing his software so it is obvious for him to say...

"You could have a problem and I have a solution... buy from us."

Each submarine has a definitive signature. The Soviets and the US during the Cold War could not only tell which class of submarine they were tracking but what the name of the sub was by it's signature.

Sitting on the bottom is neat but in submarine warfare it is like standing in the middle of the field and doing nothing. You also have to remember that the "bottom" can be pretty deep and their is a crush depth that even the most advanced subs could not go because of implosion.

I find it even funnier that you bring up the Falkland Islands War which happend 24 years ago.
 

EagleSmack

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Re: RE: IRAN'S FASTEST UNDERWATER MISSLE

Finder said:
EagleSmack said:
Juan I have read countless number of books on submarines and submarine warfare. I also used to get Proceedings which is the US Navy magazine and they always had different articles about sub warfare and anti-sub warfare.

Nuke boats are quieter than diesels and they have advanced baffling that the old diesels do not. Those Iranian subs may as well be banging pots and pans with all of the noise they make.

Thirty minutes on the surface! Do you think that that is a short time! That is a death sentence. Being at periscope depth is a death sentence as well.

Subs belong below the surface and only be staying below the different thermal layers can they remain safe if they have not been found to begin with.

Those subs are ancient and the iranian sailors would become imploded fish food against US Attack Subs.

Don't be jealous now.


Yes but the US Navy and Penigon has already issued a report saying one of the USA's biggest dangers to the merchant fleets is that of small cheap diesels subs. Perhaps they are not a big threat to war ships themselves but thats not really what the americans are worried about. Think of all the oil tankers in the area and how easy they are. The area is so small too that a sub just has to sit still on a route and just wait and they would never been spotted really.

Right on Finder. Any sub poses a threat to merchant vessels. Tankers and supply ships have little if any defense against any sort of armed attack. Nor do they have sonar to detect subs.

But these antique vessels do not stand a chance against a modern Navy.
 

Said1

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Actually, I've been reading similar things, Eagle. Not so much about the noise, as you say is deafening, but that they are better suited for nations with defensive concerns, like Iran.
 

Finder

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EagleSmack, I do not believe the Iranian navy would attack an American fleet but go after American or allied interests, as in un-escourted or lightly escourted merchant shipping. Also with the Iranian airforce in the area and surface to land (sea) missles and these torpedo's could for instance, 1 wreck havoc on merchant shipping, 2 get lucky and sink an american capital ship like a carrier. It will only take on sinking of a capital ship to wreck heavy economic and men power casualties on the americans. When you take into account you could most likely sink the complete Iranian navy and destory most of the air force, tank force and so on, but if the Iranians sank just one carrier, then really the Americans would pay an extremly high price to a war with Iran. Also when you also put into effect a surprise attack on land, air and sea by the Iranian armed forces they could cause much damage. Though I think the Americans could overwhelm, the cost of war would be extremely high and occupation next to immpossible without an extreme economic burden and men-power burden.
 

EagleSmack

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There is no way the Iranians could get at a carrier with 3 diesel subs and an air force made up primarily of 1960 vintage F-4's.

Yes they could sink merchant vessels but a carrier has layers and layers of protection withing a Carrier Battle Group.

They would have to use every one of those planes and ships to even have a chance and it would take a miracle as well.

The Iranians do not even have the capability to spot a carrier without being swarmed by carrier aircraft.

I know it is a neat thing for some to believe that they could but in the end they will end up like Iraq's AF. Blown up on the ground or shot down after take off.

The only ones that could have hit a carrier is the Soviets and maybe the Chinese if we were foolish enough to get close to their shores.

Iran... not a chance.
 

jimmoyer

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Overall, Eaglesmack, you're right about this Iranian
capability.

But a 233 mph missle underwater that splits into
multiple warheads evading radar is making it a little
tougher to control the Persian Gulf, eh?

But beyond that fundamental level is another level.

You got to ask yourself why the Iranians are advertising
publicly and openly this ability while dealing with
the EU, Russia and America on developing nuclear
capability.

Let us pause to analyze that one.
 

#juan

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EagleSmack wrote:
I would say that the British have their own subs and torpedoes.

Never mind what you would say. What is the truth? Do they, or don't they use the same torpedoes? You will find that they use exactly the same torpedoes.