"I will never leave Guantanamo"

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
It is irrelevant.

If any of these people are guilty of war crimes, then take them to the Hague and let them face the ICJ.

If these people fought to defend their country against foreign invaders, then they are soldiers.

Whether or not these people deserve their rights or respect the rights of others is beside the point. We must respect fundamental human rights, because it is the right thing to do.

If we don't respect fundamental human rights, because they don't respect ours, then we are also criminals.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
So the Geneva Convention states that they should have a trial and representation? You are in a very gray area are you not?

Actually it doesn't say that. They are to be held until the war is over. Technically its still going on. If the US called these people POWs, their indefinite incarceration without trial would have been on firmer legal ground.

Instead the US choose to invent their own classification system so that they could torture these people.

FBI files detail Guantánamo torture tactics
[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Mark Tran
Wednesday January 3, 2007
[/FONT]

Captives at Guantánamo Bay were chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor for 18 hours or more, urinating and defecating on themselves, an FBI report has revealed.
The accounts of mistreatment were contained in FBI documents released yesterday (pdf) as part of a lawsuit involving the American Civil Liberties Union, a civil liberties group....

...As of November 2006, out of 775 detainees who have been brought to Guantánamo, approximately 340 had been released, leaving 435 detainees.

Of those 435, 110 have been labelled as ready for release. Of the other 325, only about 70 will face trial by military commissions, criminal courts run by the US armed forces. That leaves about 250 who may be held indefinitely.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/story/0,,1981955,00.html
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
95
48
USA
Actually it doesn't say that. They are to be held until the war is over. Technically its still going on. If the US called these people POWs, their indefinite incarceration without trial would have been on firmer legal ground.

Instead the US choose to invent their own classification system so that they could torture these people.

The poor things. Do you REALLY feel sorry for them or do you just despise the US that much? Are you the type that just glosses over when they saw someones head off and say...

"That was bad but what about GITMO!"
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
21,513
65
48
Minnesota: Gopher State
Every true American knows that one under trial is assumed innocent until proven guilty. These victims of Bush's terrorism haven't even been charged with anything.

Bush said he was inspired by God to invade Iraq.

But what would Jesus do with these victims of Bush's crimes?
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
The poor things. Do you REALLY feel sorry for them or do you just despise the US that much? Are you the type that just glosses over when they saw someones head off and say...

"That was bad but what about GITMO!"

I despise what America's leaders have done, not the US in general or the American public.

I believe most Americans would also despise their leaders, if they knew the details:

CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret Prisons
Debate Is Growing Within Agency About Legality and Morality of Overseas System Set Up After 9/11

[SIZE=-1]By Dana Priest[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Washington Post Staff Writer[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Wednesday, November 2, 2005; A01[/SIZE]

The CIA has been hiding and interrogating some of its most important al Qaeda captives at a Soviet-era compound in Eastern Europe, according to U.S. and foreign officials familiar with the arrangement.

The secret facility is part of a covert prison system set up by the CIA nearly four years ago that at various times has included sites in eight countries, including Thailand, Afghanistan and several democracies in Eastern Europe, as well as a small center at the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba, according to current and former intelligence officials and diplomats from three continents.

The hidden global internment network is a central element in the CIA's unconventional war on terrorism. It depends on the cooperation of foreign intelligence services, and on keeping even basic information about the system secret from the public, foreign officials and nearly all members of Congress charged with overseeing the CIA's covert actions....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644_pf.html

Secret World of U.S. Interrogation
Long History of Tactics in Overseas Prisons Is Coming to Light


By Dana Priest and Joe Stephens
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, May 11, 2004

...CIA employees are under investigation by the Justice Department and the CIA inspector general's office in connection with the death of three captives in the past six months, two who died while under interrogation in Iraq, and a third who was being questioned by a CIA contract interrogator in Afghanistan...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A15981-2004May10?language=printer

"died while under interrogation" is a nice way of saying "tortured to death".

How do you think Italians feel about this incident?
ROME -- An Italian judge has ordered the arrest of 13 alleged American CIA operatives on charges of kidnapping a terrorism suspect in Milan and secretly flying him to Egypt without permission from Italian authorities, prosecutors in Milan said yesterday...

Why the US brought this person to Egypt:

Torture in Egypt is a widespread and persistent phenomenon. Security forces and the police routinely torture or ill-treat detainees, particularly during interrogation. In most cases, officials torture detainees to obtain information and coerce confessions, occasionally leading to death in custody. In some cases, officials use torture detainees to punish, intimidate, or humiliate. Police also detain and torture family members to obtain information or confessions from a relative, or to force a wanted relative to surrender.1

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/02/25/egypt7658.htm

Its not just Italians who have legitimate beefs with the US. Canada has several cases like this:


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]February 8, 2005 by The New Yorker [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Outsourcing Torture[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Secret History of America’s “Extraordinary Rendition” Program[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]by Jane Mayer[/FONT]​
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]On January 27th, President Bush, in an interview with the Times, assured the world that “torture is never acceptable, nor do we hand over people to countries that do torture.” Maher Arar, a Canadian engineer who was born in Syria, was surprised to learn of Bush’s statement. Two and a half years ago, American officials, suspecting Arar of being a terrorist, apprehended him in New York and sent him back to Syria, where he endured months of brutal interrogation, including torture. When Arar described his experience in a phone interview recently, he invoked an Arabic expression. The pain was so unbearable, he said, that “you forget the milk that you have been fed from the breast of your mother.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Arar, a thirty-four-year-old graduate of McGill University whose family emigrated to Canada when he was a teen-ager, was arrested on September 26, 2002, at John F. Kennedy Airport. He was changing planes; he had been on vacation with his family in Tunisia, and was returning to Canada. Arar was detained because his name had been placed on the United States Watch List of terrorist suspects. He was held for the next thirteen days, as American officials questioned him about possible links to another suspected terrorist. Arar said that he barely knew the suspect, although he had worked with the man’s brother. Arar, who was not formally charged, was placed in handcuffs and leg irons by plainclothes officials and transferred to an executive jet. The plane flew to Washington, continued to Portland, Maine, stopped in Rome, Italy, then landed in Amman, Jordan. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]During the flight, Arar said, he heard the pilots and crew identify themselves in radio communications as members of “the Special Removal Unit.” The Americans, he learned, planned to take him next to Syria. Having been told by his parents about the barbaric practices of the police in Syria, Arar begged crew members not to send him there, arguing that he would surely be tortured. His captors did not respond to his request; instead, they invited him to watch a spy thriller that was aired on board.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ten hours after landing in Jordan, Arar said, he was driven to Syria, where interrogators, after a day of threats, “just began beating on me.” They whipped his hands repeatedly with two-inch-thick electrical cables, and kept him in a windowless underground cell that he likened to a grave. “Not even animals could withstand it,” he said. Although he initially tried to assert his innocence, he eventually confessed to anything his tormentors wanted him to say. “You just give up,” he said. “You become like an animal.”[/FONT]


A year later, in October, 2003, Arar was released without charges, after the Canadian government took up his cause. Imad Moustapha, the Syrian Ambassador in Washington, announced that his country had found no links between Arar and terrorism. Arar, it turned out, had been sent to Syria on orders from the U.S. government, under a secretive program known as “extraordinary rendition.” This program had been devised as a means of extraditing terrorism suspects from one foreign state to another for interrogation and prosecution. Critics contend that the unstated purpose of such renditions is to subject the suspects to aggressive methods of persuasion that are illegal in America—including torture.

Arar is suing the U.S. government for his mistreatment. “They are outsourcing torture because they know it’s illegal,” he said. “Why, if they have suspicions, don’t they question people within the boundary of the law?”

Rendition was originally carried out on a limited basis, but after September 11th, when President Bush declared a global war on terrorism, the program expanded beyond recognition—becoming, according to a former C.I.A. official, “an abomination.” What began as a program aimed at a small, discrete set of suspects—people against whom there were outstanding foreign arrest warrants—came to include a wide and ill-defined population that the Administration terms “illegal enemy combatants.” Many of them have never been publicly charged with any crime...

...Another case suggests that the Bush Administration is authorizing the rendition of suspects for whom it has little evidence of guilt. Mamdouh Habib, an Egyptian-born citizen of Australia, was apprehended in Pakistan in October, 2001. According to his wife, Habib, a radical Muslim with four children, was visiting the country to tour religious schools and determine if his family should move to Pakistan. A spokesman at the Pentagon has claimed that Habib—who has expressed support for Islamist causes—spent most of his trip in Afghanistan, and was “either supporting hostile forces or on the battlefield fighting illegally against the U.S.” Last month, after a three-year ordeal, Habib was released without charges.

Habib is one of a handful of people subjected to rendition who are being represented pro bono by human-rights lawyers. According to a recently unsealed document prepared by Joseph Margulies, a lawyer affiliated with the MacArthur Justice Center at the University of Chicago Law School, Habib said that he was first interrogated in Pakistan for three weeks, in part at a facility in Islamabad, where he said he was brutalized. Some of his interrogators, he claimed, spoke English with American accents. (Having lived in Australia for years, Habib is comfortable in English.) He was then placed in the custody of Americans, two of whom wore black short-sleeved shirts and had distinctive tattoos: one depicted an American flag attached to a flagpole shaped like a finger, the other a large cross. The Americans took him to an airfield, cut his clothes off with scissors, dressed him in a jumpsuit, covered his eyes with opaque goggles, and placed him aboard a private plane. He was flown to Egypt.

According to Margulies, Habib was held and interrogated for six months. “Never, to my knowledge, did he make an appearance in any court,” Margulies told me. Margulies was also unaware of any evidence suggesting that the U.S. sought a promise from Egypt that Habib would not be tortured. For his part, Habib claimed to have been subjected to horrific conditions. He said that he was beaten frequently with blunt instruments, including an object that he likened to an electric “cattle prod.” And he was told that if he didn’t confess to belonging to Al Qaeda he would be anally raped by specially trained dogs. (Hossam el-Hamalawy said that Egyptian security forces train German shepherds for police work, and that other prisoners have also been threatened with rape by trained dogs, although he knows of no one who has been assaulted in this way.) Habib said that he was shackled and forced to stand in three torture chambers: one room was filled with water up to his chin, requiring him to stand on tiptoe for hours; another chamber, filled with water up to his knees, had a ceiling so low that he was forced into a prolonged, painful stoop; in the third, he stood in water up to his ankles, and within sight of an electric switch and a generator, which his jailers said would be used to electrocute him if he didn’t confess. Habib’s lawyer said that he submitted to his interrogators’ demands and made multiple confessions, all of them false. (Egyptian authorities have described such allegations of torture as “mythology.”)
After his imprisonment in Egypt, Habib said that he was returned to U.S. custody and was flown to Bagram Air Force Base, in Afghanistan, and then on to Guantánamo Bay, where he was detained until last month. On January 11th, a few days after the Washington Post published an article on Habib’s case, the Pentagon, offering virtually no explanation, agreed to release him into the custody of the Australian government. “Habib was released because he was hopelessly embarrassing,” Eric Freedman, a professor at Hofstra Law School, who has been involved in the detainees’ legal defense, says. “It’s a large crack in the wall in a house of cards that is midway through tumbling down.” In a prepared statement, a Pentagon spokesman, Lieutenant Commander Flex Plexico, said there was “no evidence” that Habib “was tortured or abused” while he was in U.S. custody. He also said that Habib had received “Al Qaeda training,” which included instruction in making false abuse allegations. Habib’s claims, he suggested, “fit the standard operating procedure.”...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0208-13.htm

Likely the US is responsible for the illegal abduction and torture of hundreds of innocent people like Arar. Canada has apologized to Arar for its part in his mistreatment and torture. The US still refuses to admit it did anything wrong.

Habib was never even accused of committing a crime.


Americans should be embarassed that countries like China can legitimately criticize their country's human rights record:

China Returns Fire on US Human Rights Abuses
by Ivan Eland

In its newly released annual report on the status of human rights around the world, the U.S. State Department disparages a long list of nations about their violations of individual freedoms. The report notes that countries in which power is concentrated in the hands of unaccountable rulers, whether totalitarian or authoritarian, continue to be the world's most systematic human rights violators. These countries include North Korea, Iran, Burma, Zimbabwe, Cuba, China, Belarus, and Eritrea.

"We are recommitting ourselves to call every government to account that still treats the basic rights of its citizens as options rather than, in President Bush's words, the nonnegotiable demands of human dignity," said Secretary of State Rice in releasing the report.

The authoritarian government in China gleefully responded to the U.S. censure of its policies with return fire on the Bush administration's abysmal record on civil liberties. Things are getting bad when an autocracy chastises a republic for its human rights abuses and the criticism has merit. The Chinese condemned U.S. practices of kidnapping, torture, and indefinite detention without the opportunity for legal challenge. They also pinged the U.S. government for increased spying on American citizens. Of course, these are the same abuses that the U.S. government has criticized the Chinese government of perpetrating. China also cited Martin Sheinin, UN special rapporteur on the promotion and protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms, as saying that parts of the U.S. Military Commissions Act violate the Geneva Conventions...

http://www.antiwar.com/eland/?articleid=10663