Harper’s “Measured” Response

[DurkaDurka]

RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

Harper "accepting" Israel's actions against Hezbollah did not endanger these people. Once again, these people would have the potential to be killed/injured regardless of what Harper said to the Israeli government. Canada protesting Israel's offensive would not have saved the 8 people killed nor would it prevent further casualties.

 

[BitWhys]

echo

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echo...

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

I have to say, I don't think the Israeli response has been "indiscriminate". Less than 300 dead after a week of shelling and air strikes speaks of restraint in my book.

How many of those 300, if it is that much, are the kidnappers? How much are just people caught unaware? Is it a fixed number?

How many innocent people are acceptable to destroy? How much destruction of infrastructure in Lebanon is warranted? Is it humane?

Is it humane because was there another alternative? Did Israel, when making the connection to Hezbollah, even try to contact the Lebanese government to see if they would help try to fix the situation? No. They didn’t even attempt any form of real diplomacy. They didn’t try other means. They used indiscriminate force as a first response.

Don’t think the wasting of life is going to improve Israel’s situation. Actions like this only breed sympathizers. Just like how the Iraqis are being turned into radical fractions by US policy of force and occupation.

If they had tried to contact the Lebanese government, and Lebanon helped, it would have helped marginalize Hezbollah in Lebanon and all this destruction may have been avoided. They didn’t even try. This approach of destruction will only breed the problems than, as you say, hope to de-fang.

No longer will we know if approaching the Lebanese would have worked.

When I said 300 dead, I was very much off the mark. As of noon today, the death toll is 212 Lebanese, and 27 Israelis.

I think you could assume many of the 212 are Hezbollah militants.

The Lebanese government DOES NOT EXERCISE CONTROL over southern Lebanon. Do you think that they would allow it to be Hezbollah-stan if they could have prevented it? Appealing to the Lebanese government to do something BEFORE Israel destroys much of Hezbollah's military capability would be a complete waste of time. The Lebanese military has done NOTHING in 30 years, during 15 of those years Lebanon was caught up in civil war. after Lebanon was destabilized by those heroes of the left, the PLO.

Israel is justified in attacking Lebanon until Hezbollah is smashed. Hopefully, after Israel has completely degraded Hezbollah's military capability, the Lebanese government will move in the Lebanese military. That may first require an Israeli ground assault into southern Lebanon, basically doing the job of the Lebanese military for them.

SEVEN DAYS of shelling, and bombing. 212 dead. That is what I call restraint.

At the Somme, 50,000 allied soldiers were killed in the morning of July1, 1916.

World War Two air raids on Dresdan, and Tokyo killed 100,000 plus in a single night.

The raid on Pearl Harbour killed about 2500, as did the attack on the TwinTowers on 9/11.

212 killed over seven days in a military operation by one of the world's most deadly and efficient military machine speaks very clearly of restraint.

I am sorry to see Harper soften his support for Israel.

 

[Mogz]

Re: RE: Harper’s “Measured” Response

Just to fan a few flames here, i'd like to point out that the United States Navy was forced to rent ships. If you head over to their website you'll see that 268 of their 281 Naval vessels are currently deployed or tasked. They're out of ships.

And how many of those ships would even be useful in a situation like this? Presumably you wouldn't be able to evacuate many people on a frigate/destroyer/cruiser. You'd need something like an amphibious assault ship (Wasp or Tarawa class?) and I assume that those are pretty busy at the moment.

Edit: I just read your response in the other thread

Exactly right. Their chief mass-lift ships are tied up fighting two wars and trying to prevent a third.

 

[elevennevele]

Re: RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

Harper "accepting" Israel's actions against Hezbollah did not endanger these people. Once again, these people would have the potential to be killed/injured regardless of what Harper said to the Israeli government. Canada protesting Israel's offensive would not have saved the 8 people killed nor would it prevent further casualties.

It may not have saved the lives of the Canadians, but lending such uncritical support of the Israeli retaliation by our government did help to endanger Canadian lives. There is a difference there.

We can not determine that if our government cautioned Israel, and that there was a concern and consequence for any loss of Canadian life, steps might have been taken by the Israelis to rethink some of the strikes.

As international pressure mounts while we speak, we can see Israel having to address such concerns now. Perhaps lives are being saved because of that, and which does illustrate the difference.

 

[#juan]

Colpy

Are you saying that killing over two hundred men, women, and children, and injuring God knows how many, is a reasonable response to two soldiers being kidnapped? The Israelis are being judge, jury, and executioner for people who, for the most part, had nothing to do with the kidnapping.

We condemned the Germans for wiping out the town of Lidice because a soldier was killed. The Iraeli response is a way out of proportion.

 

[DurkaDurka]

RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

I haven't read anything to indicate that Israel is curtailing it's attacks on Lebanon due to "International Pressure". Israel is going to do whatever it takes to complete it's objectives regardless of UN condemnation.

The only country that can apply any sort of meaningful pressure is the US, which I doubt will do so.

 

[EastSideScotian]

Re: RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

Regardless of Harper deeming Israel's actions to be a "measured repsonse", these civilians would still have been killed.

Do you think Israel would have backed down if Canada had voiced it's disapproval?

Israel does not even know Canada exists. They could care less.

They dont do they?

Interesting, Because Canada has been Envolved with Peace talks with them in the past many times. The Prime Minister called Harper yesterday to send his Condolinces for the Canadians Killed, by his strikes.

I dont know if you know this or not But Canada is one of the most widely knowen Countrys across the world, Just because the states know nothing of us doesnt meant he rest of the world is the same, its quite differant, Canada is Known all over the world. Especaily in the Middle east. And Asia due to our Civilains with large ties to those areas....

 

[Colpy]

Colpy

Are you saying that killing over two hundred men, women, and children, and injuring God knows how many, is a reasonable response to two soldiers being kidnapped? The Israelis are being judge, jury, and executioner for people who, for the most part, had nothing to do with the kidnapping.

We condemned the Germans for wiping out the town of Lidice because a soldier was killed. The Iraeli response is a way out of proportion.

This deserves an answer Juan, but it needs to be short, or I'll be late for work.

It is not just two soldiers, it is continuing attacks supported by Iran and Syria. It is attacks in support of Hamas, leaving Israel fighting on three fronts. It is Hezbollah attempting to shame Arab nations into taking up the Palestinian cause. It is an attempt to create conditions that would allow the Lebanese gov't to assert sovereignty in south Lebanon. It is the fact that Israel is a citizen army, and its call-ups damage the economy, so theyhave to do it all ASAP..........it can't shut down the nation every time Hezbollah feels like launching a missile.

As far as I'm concerned, Israeli response should be 15 missiles to every one Hezbollah launches......three to Lebanon, two to Syria, and ten to Iran.

 

[Maggiemygosh]

The ignorance of so many Canadians and their stupid comments about our PM supporting Israel certainly is displaying to the world that Canada has a lot of very immature people residing here. And that is so true.

Lefties just dont and wont even try to understand the price for peace and security for the citizens of any country. The deaths of Canadians or any other nationality is not Israels fault. It is the fault of Hezbollah, Palestine, Iran and Syria. Is real has to and must defend its soveriegn rights which includes their citizens from terrorist attacks. The lefty factions in Canada support the terrorists and that really puzzles me.

Is Canada under threat ? Absolutely and when the terrorists strike the citizens of Canada and they will men and womens shorts will no longer be white anymore and the moaning and groaning and complaining and the utter stupidity will surface by the left side of the block.

When real and serious decisions have to be made about peace and security for our Canada then the left side of the house MUST be ignored because they have no clue.

 

[gc]

Is Canada under threat ? Absolutely and when the terrorists strike the citizens of Canada and they will men and womens shorts will no longer be white anymore and the moaning and groaning and complaining and the utter stupidity will surface by the left side of the block.

Under threat from hezbollah? How so? Don't they have enough to worry about in the middle east without attacking Canada?

 

[BitWhys]

I wonder how many soldier's graves M just managed to piss on with those remarks.

 

[goodwinginger]

It is simply naive to believe that Stephen Harper acted out of some deeply embedded moral compass when he made the comment that the IDF response was moderate. With the civilian kill rate going up by the hour running at or around about ten civilians for every one combatant we are not talking about a measured response. Full-stop. Further, any objective assessment of the targets that the IAF has bombed would tell you that 60-75% have no military value whatsoever.

Of course any car, ambulance, bridge, gas station, school, dog, or blade of grass could give comfort to the enemy. But by this standard there is no distinction between civilian and non-civilian targets. We could take the latter position but then we would have no capacity to criticize or morally condemn terrorism as a legitimate tactic of war making. That is not the position we here at Canadian Observer wish to take.

If all you arm chair tough guys want to take the position that civilians and their infrastructure are legitimate targets in times of war fine. Just don't cry foul when people you do not like kill civilians.

This is precisely the problem with contemporary conservatives, they have no moral center and are left only with crass opportunism as a compass. Congrats you are just like the Liberals and the NDP. Sorry there is one difference: the Cons are in power so that makes them responsible. Don't like responsibility? Don't govern!

Goodwin Ginger

 

[SaintLucifer]

Re: RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

Regardless of Harper deeming Israel's actions to be a "measured repsonse", these civilians would still have been killed.

Do you think Israel would have backed down if Canada had voiced it's disapproval?

Israel does not even know Canada exists. They could care less.

They dont do they?

Interesting, Because Canada has been Envolved with Peace talks with them in the past many times. The Prime Minister called Harper yesterday to send his Condolinces for the Canadians Killed, by his strikes.

I dont know if you know this or not But Canada is one of the most widely knowen Countrys across the world, Just because the states know nothing of us doesnt meant he rest of the world is the same, its quite differant, Canada is Known all over the world. Especaily in the Middle east. And Asia due to our Civilains with large ties to those areas....

In which dream world do you live? Canada is not in any peace talks because no one gives a shit what Canada has to say. The situation in Lebanon is beyond our ken. We are a minor-league nation swimming in a sea of major-league states. We are a nothing. A nobody. When will you learn to accept this. I love my country far more than you do but this does not change the fact we are a worldwide joke. The only thing other nations notice about Canada would be our wealth. Nothing more. We are not anywhere near a military power.
You base our world prestige on the fact immigrants visit their relatives back in their homelands and as a result they know Canada? Is this your measure of our prestige? Do you believe for a moment that other than discussions between relatives in other countries anyone even thinks about Canada let alone discusses it? The only time Canada is discussed by other nations is when immigrant Canadians return to the land of their birth to speak of Canada. Never at any other time are we discussed because Canada on the world stage is irrelevant.

 

[SaintLucifer]

Is Canada under threat ? Absolutely and when the terrorists strike the citizens of Canada and they will men and womens shorts will no longer be white anymore and the moaning and groaning and complaining and the utter stupidity will surface by the left side of the block.

Under threat from hezbollah? How so? Don't they have enough to worry about in the middle east without attacking Canada?

I personally doubt Hezbollah would ever be a direct threat to Canada but then again this is what was said about Muslims. I quite wonder who has threated to commit terrorist attacks against Canada? Oh yes, that would be Al-Qaida.

Anyhoo, Hezbollah actually has proved a threat thus far. Were not 8 Canadians killed in the battles between Hezbollah and the IDF? Remember, this makes Hezbollah indirectly responsible for those Canadian deaths. They started the entire mess. They failed to give a shit that there were foreign nationals living in Lebanon who would be put in danger by their own terrorist actions against Israel. Remember this the next time you say Hezbollah is not a threat.

 

[Claudius]

RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

No, but it doesn't help the families of those Canadians killed that Harper did give his approval.

And his disapproval would've helped them so much. It's true that would've been the general Liberal Party stance: Disapprove and then wonder why that wasn't getting anything done, (except of course for placating the herd).


.

 

[EastSideScotian]

Re: RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

Regardless of Harper deeming Israel's actions to be a "measured repsonse", these civilians would still have been killed.

Do you think Israel would have backed down if Canada had voiced it's disapproval?

Israel does not even know Canada exists. They could care less.

They dont do they?

Interesting, Because Canada has been Envolved with Peace talks with them in the past many times. The Prime Minister called Harper yesterday to send his Condolinces for the Canadians Killed, by his strikes.

I dont know if you know this or not But Canada is one of the most widely knowen Countrys across the world, Just because the states know nothing of us doesnt meant he rest of the world is the same, its quite differant, Canada is Known all over the world. Especaily in the Middle east. And Asia due to our Civilains with large ties to those areas....

In which dream world do you live? Canada is not in any peace talks because no one gives a shit what Canada has to say. The situation in Lebanon is beyond our ken. We are a minor-league nation swimming in a sea of major-league states. We are a nothing. A nobody. When will you learn to accept this. I love my country far more than you do but this does not change the fact we are a worldwide joke. The only thing other nations notice about Canada would be our wealth. Nothing more. We are not anywhere near a military power.
You base our world prestige on the fact immigrants visit their relatives back in their homelands and as a result they know Canada? Is this your measure of our prestige? Do you believe for a moment that other than discussions between relatives in other countries anyone even thinks about Canada let alone discusses it? The only time Canada is discussed by other nations is when immigrant Canadians return to the land of their birth to speak of Canada. Never at any other time are we discussed because Canada on the world stage is irrelevant.

Are you serious, we have been in All kinds from African Nations to, Hati, to many places all over the world, the Balkans. Your a dumb ass if you think you have to have Military power to do peace talks, Countrys that are poor as dirt help out in peace negotiations all the time, Countrys with a shitty army do too...

Your foolish.
And you seem disturbingly un-patriotic.

 

[elevennevele]

Re: RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

And his disapproval would've helped them so much. It's true that would've been the general Liberal Party stance: Disapprove and then wonder why that wasn't getting anything done, (except of course for placating the herd).

It would have been the statesman like response regardless of which party who gave it. It would have been the thoughtful response regardless of the party affiliation.

It would have been the right response to call a halt to the conflict and to try to work with the International Community and parties involved at pushing some way to begin diplomacy to the region.

It would have been right to have tried doing the right thing. Harper had many opportunities to shine in this crisis.

 

[gc]

Is Canada under threat ? Absolutely and when the terrorists strike the citizens of Canada and they will men and womens shorts will no longer be white anymore and the moaning and groaning and complaining and the utter stupidity will surface by the left side of the block.

Under threat from hezbollah? How so? Don't they have enough to worry about in the middle east without attacking Canada?

I personally doubt Hezbollah would ever be a direct threat to Canada...

My point exactly.

but then again this is what was said about Muslims. I quite wonder who has threated to commit terrorist attacks against Canada? Oh yes, that would be Al-Qaida.

So far neither al-qaeda nor hezbollah have tried to attack Canada (not including the 17 arrested in Toronto who were 'ideologically linked' to al-qaeda, but had no actual connections).

Anyhoo, Hezbollah actually has proved a threat thus far. Were not 8 Canadians killed in the battles between Hezbollah and the IDF? Remember, this makes Hezbollah indirectly responsible for those Canadian deaths. They started the entire mess. They failed to give a shit that there were foreign nationals living in Lebanon who would be put in danger by their own terrorist actions against Israel.

Hezbollah is only a threat to Canadians in the region, hezbollah has not proven to be a threat to Canada.

Remember this the next time you say Hezbollah is not a threat.

I never said hezbolla isn't a threat, I said hezbollah is not a threat to Canada (actually I didn't even say that in my last post, but I'm saying it now)

 

[Maggiemygosh]

Socialism has impaired the minds of those who do not and never ever will understand the price to maintain freedom, peace and security. The lefty idiot fiberals and ndp in Canada are responsible for the annual 250,000 immigrants/refugees entering our country without having a security or background check. The RCMP and CSIS are powerless to prevent this from happening because of those ididot lefties. That is why we have thousands of terrorists, drug lords, murderers, rapists, robbers , pedophiles etal in this country.

We have thousands of terrorists living in Canada and for those of you who do not believe that well get ready because Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver are the target cities for terrorist acts. Ottawa is also on the list but not number one.

Secondly and thank goodness we no longer have a lefty idiot government, Stephen Harper knows what he is doing and his public statements are 100% correct. The lefty media jerks will not support them and therefore they twist the info and intentionally leave out truth facts and reality. The Toronto Fiberal Star is the worst rag in Canada with their BS over the past 35 years along with the CBC another commie outfit full of BS artists. The public has been misinformed badly by those fiberal idiots.