Harper unveils Arctic plan

[Timetrvlr]

Doryman made a few comments that I want to question:

Anyone who follows naval developments knows that the Yank subs are always up in our Arctic, the same as they were hidden around New Brunswick, and Soviet subs were constantly lurking around Newfoundland hidden beneath Russian trawlers.

My question is why? Why would Russians or Amnericans be spying on anything in Newfoundland? If they were, who cares? Do you propose we take military action against them if we do catch them in our waters? Wouldn't it be a little foolish to precipitate a war with a superpower? Wouldn't you think we should be more concerned about Spanish ships fishing in our waters?

Militarily, our country is a frickin sieve, and we really do need to beef up our Armed Forces.

I can agree with this. I think we should be spending the money on Ports of Entry where the real subversives filter into our country. I don't think that is one of Harper's concers though. I think he wants a military buildup so he can join the US in their wars of adventure.

By the way, I found your signature line interesting.

I am that dog. I am that monster. I am that post-industrial, post-modern crypto-fascist politically incorrect male cocka-rocka Warpig.

I think it goes a long way toward explaining your macho attitude. I do hope you are the one doing the fighting though and not sending someone else's kid to do it.

 

[Doryman]

Answers in Blue, as usual...



My question is why? I have no idea, but I find the idea of both Cold War Superpowers lurking around in Canadian waters alarming, and I'd at least like to know that they were being watched by our military.

Why would Russians or Amnericans be spying on anything in Newfoundland? No idea, but they could be setting up military communications bases on Canadian territory...If that sounds foolish, remember, the Nazi's did it.

If they were, who cares? I do... you don't???

Do you propose we take military action against them if we do catch them in our waters? Wouldn't it be a little foolish to precipitate a war with a superpower? Obviously that would be retarded, but we do need to keep a visible force around to make superpowers at least think twice about trying to take us over and control us. I always found it funny that the people who most fear Canada being under American Hegemony also want to keep us completely weak and dependent on the US war machine. lets be a defenceless, uber-pacifist leech of a country.. then those bloody Yanks would back off and respect our wishes!!!

Wouldn't you think we should be more concerned about Spanish ships fishing in our waters? I do believe we should be more concerned about Spanish ships, but not to the point that we completely ignore other military's simply strolling uninvited onto our territory.

Militarily, our country is a frickin sieve, and we really do need to beef up our Armed Forces.

I can agree with this. I think we should be spending the money on Ports of Entry where the real subversives filter into our country. I don't think that is one of Harper's concers though. I think he wants a military buildup so he can join the US in their wars of adventure.

By the way, I found your signature line interesting.

I am that dog. I am that monster. I am that post-industrial, post-modern crypto-fascist politically incorrect male cocka-rocka Warpig.

I think it goes a long way toward explaining your macho attitude. Of course it does, I chant it every morning while I shave with my bowie knife. :roll: It's a quote from a Stephen King novel, Dreamcatcher, I always thought it was an amusing line. I do hope you are the one doing the fighting though and not sending someone else's kid to do it.

I am in the military, yes. What about it?

 

[bluealberta]

The issue of cost has come up here regarding the Arctic plan. While none of us have actual understanding of the true amount of the surplus, there are few areas where money can be obtained to pay for this:

1. Useless long gun registry.
2. Equally useless proposed handgun ban.
3. Billions hidden in unaudited foundation accounts.
4. $46 billion EI surplus
5. $2 billion HRDC boondoggle
6. ????millions in the Adscam affairs.
7. Scrapping useless and ineffective national daycare program

There are others, I am sure, but just these alone would provide tens of billions for something actually worthwhile.

 

[Colpy]

I always found it funny that the people who most fear Canada being under American Hegemony also want to keep us completely weak and dependent on the US war machine.

Absolutely so!

Not only that, but I was reading a piece on Harper's plan to literally re-introduce the Canadian military to British Columbia.

Canadian Armed Forces are practically non-existent there, and Harper wishes to change that with, among other things, emergency response teams.

The Liberals, when asked what would happen in BC if there was a (long expected) natural disaster like an earthquake or tsunami expected the AMERICAN military to come to our aid from Washington State.

Now, how many things can you spot wrong with that plan?

Here's mine:

1. Do we have no sense of national pride or responsibility? Why are we acting like the Uncle Sam's spoiled child? Can't we take care of ouraselves?

2. If a huge natural disaster occured on the west coast, don't the idiots currently running our government realize our Yankee friends are going to be a little busy on their own side of the border?

3. After spending the last few years being kicked in the kneecaps, ridiculed, and generally despised by the Canadian government, exactly why would the evil USA to come to our aid? (although I have no doubt they would, if they could)

I always shook my head at Canadians criticizing the US response to Katrina. If you want to see a REAL mess, just wait until a real natural disaster hits a large Canadian city. The Americans were under prepared. We are unprepared.

And the Yanks would cheerfully help, as they did during the ice storm and its aftermath. With no thanks from us, mind you.

Last point: All you lefties on the West Coast had best vote Conservative, unless you want the crypto-fascist US military coming across the border some day.......

 

[I think not]

I have a dumb question Colpy, where would Harper get all this money to fund all these programs? I'm assuming either deficits or chopping social programs.

 

[the caracal kid]

Last point: All you lefties on the West Coast had best vote Conservative, unless you want the crypto-fascist US military coming across the border some day.......

:roll:

so you are telling us we need to accept a fascist regime to avoid a fascist regime?

ok.... i will get right on that. :wink: :roll:

 

[Colpy]

Last point: All you lefties on the West Coast had best vote Conservative, unless you want the crypto-fascist US military coming across the border some day.......

:roll:

so you are telling us we need to accept a fascist regime to avoid a fascist regime?

ok.... i will get right on that. :wink: :roll:

I've got to tell you, my patience with being called a fascist supporter is beginning to wear a little thin.

If Harper is a fascist, then Layton is a Stalinist.

One is as ludicrous as the other.

ALL the political parties in Canada are jammed tight in the middle of the political spectrum.

So how about ceasing with the smear tactics already?

 

[Jersay]

I've got to tell you, my patience with being called a fascist supporter is beginning to wear a little thin.

If Harper is a fascist, then Layton is a Stalinist.

One is as ludicrous as the other.

ALL the political parties in Canada are jammed tight in the middle of the political spectrum.

So how about ceasing with the smear tactics already?

Harper could be a fascist and Layton could be a Stalinist, but I think he is more of a Marxist-Leninist if you ask me.

But lets say for practical sense, Bush is on the right, yes no? Therefore, Stephen Harper even though he might be a central politican, his party is on the right, so in theoretical aspects, if Bush is on the right and Harper is on the right, they could be preceived to be fascist.

 

[I think not]

:scratch:

 

[Jersay]

The point I am trying to make, is that, Colpy said that the American military is crypto-fascist. Look at his post.

What I am saying is that even if Harper is a central politician, his party is perceived to be on the right just like Bush's so they to some minds could be perceived as fascists as well. Backing up caracal kid's comment.

 

[the caracal kid]

Last point: All you lefties on the West Coast had best vote Conservative, unless you want the crypto-fascist US military coming across the border some day.......

:roll:

so you are telling us we need to accept a fascist regime to avoid a fascist regime?

ok.... i will get right on that. :wink: :roll:

I've got to tell you, my patience with being called a fascist supporter is beginning to wear a little thin.

If Harper is a fascist, then Layton is a Stalinist.

One is as ludicrous as the other.

ALL the political parties in Canada are jammed tight in the middle of the political spectrum.

So how about ceasing with the smear tactics already?

and i tire of being labeled a liberal supporter because of my strong stance against the harperites.

what i want is a "bloc pacific" (yet to be formed) that would align with the bloc quebecois, and the "bloc atlantica" (yet formed). Heck, if albertchewanitoba can get is its western third in line (so they stop acting like a rogue territory) a "bloc grasslands" is welcome too.

so how about we agree on one thing: the "main 3" are useless since real solutions come from examination and not lines in the sand.

cheers, colpy. i am sure there are plenty issues we see eye to eye on. (the east can meet the west!, just don't bring your guns or i will have to bring my katana)

 

[Colpy]

The point I am trying to make, is that, Colpy said that the American military is crypto-fascist. Look at his post.

What I am saying is that even if Harper is a central politician, his party is perceived to be on the right just like Bush's so they to some minds could be perceived as fascists as well. Backing up caracal kid's comment.

Sorry to confuse you, the "crypto-fascist" crack was sarcastic, meant to be a joke.

The US military is as far from fascist as you can imagine.

 

[bluealberta]

I have a dumb question Colpy, where would Harper get all this money to fund all these programs? I'm assuming either deficits or chopping social programs.

To answer ITN, again:

1. Useless long gun registry.
2. Equally useless proposed handgun ban.
3. Billions hidden in unaudited foundation accounts.
4. $46 billion EI surplus
5. $2 billion HRDC boondoggle
6. ????millions in the Adscam affairs.
7. Scrapping useless and ineffective national daycare program

There are others, I am sure, but just these alone would provide tens of billions for something actually worthwhile.

 

[Roy]

RE: Harper unveils Arctic

I too think there is massive amounts of money in Ottawa that is being wasted and squandered. I would hope that Harper can clean up the mess, bring in a new fresh start, and succeed in the issues his is bringing up. The Artic Issue is very importiant..... as this area thaws there will be increased pressure from the global community to have it named "internation waters".....so Canada needs to get in the game and start looking out for our future. I would hate to see Canada complaining 20 years from now, that we should of done something when we had the chance.

 

[Jersay]

Like I said on another thread. If you scrap national day care. Fine, you have profit run day-care. That's a fact.

What if a parent doesn't want to give their children to their family memebers, maybe they are estranged, maybe there is a violence history. What are they suppose to do, go to a corporate run for profit-childcare, which at least costs 8,000$. With 25$ a week from a conservative government that is nothing.

So they don't have choices either, Harper hasn't thought this through.

 

[bluealberta]

Like I said on another thread. If you scrap national day care. Fine, you have profit run day-care. That's a fact.

What if a parent doesn't want to give their children to their family memebers, maybe they are estranged, maybe there is a violence history. What are they suppose to do, go to a corporate run for profit-childcare, which at least costs 8,000$. With 25$ a week from a conservative government that is nothing.

So they don't have choices either, Harper hasn't thought this through.

With all due respect, my wife and I have been involved with daycare for several years. The current subsidy program is very generous, with many families paying little or nothing from their pockets. The Liberal program does nothing for rural people, or people in small communities. Do you think that the govt is going to set up a 'Kids 'R Us" Daycare in downtown Smalltown, Sask? Hardly.

Surely you are not trying to tell me (us) that unionized impersonal daycare workers are better than most family members, dayhome providers, or stay at home moms? Surely you are not trying to tell me (us) that the no choice Liberal program is better than the choices model Harper has envisioned? Please tell me that you do not think the government knows better how to raise kids than the parents or family members of most families know?

BTW, where did you get the $8000 figure? For one kid, that is about double what the actual rate is in the private sector, at least where we are. If you are talking the Quebec model, where people have to get on waiting lists (you know, rather like the health care system.......oh thats right, the libs have said they want daycare to be like the health care system!) prior to their kids being born, then you may be right. But that is an incredibly subsidized program, costing society in general a huge amount.

 

[Jersay]

With all due respect, my wife and I have been involved with daycare for several years. The current subsidy program is very generous, with many families paying little or nothing from their pockets. The Liberal program does nothing for rural people, or people in small communities. Do you think that the govt is going to set up a 'Kids 'R Us" Daycare in downtown Smalltown, Sask? Hardly.

Surely you are not trying to tell me (us) that unionized impersonal daycare workers are better than most family members, dayhome providers, or stay at home moms? Surely you are not trying to tell me (us) that the no choice Liberal program is better than the choices model Harper has envisioned? Please tell me that you do not think the government knows better how to raise kids than the parents or family members of most families know?

BTW, where did you get the $8000 figure? For one kid, that is about double what the actual rate is in the private sector, at least where we are. If you are talking the Quebec model, where people have to get on waiting lists (you know, rather like the health care system.......oh thats right, the libs have said they want daycare to be like the health care system!) prior to their kids being born, then you may be right. But that is an incredibly subsidized program, costing society in general a huge amount.

If you watch Global or CTV and they have their experts, they say it is around 8,000 dollars for childcare.

Did I say that 'impersonal' daycare workers are better no. However, Harper himself hasn't looked into the fact that some people might have relatives that are not suitable for taking care of children, or their relatives are too far away, for example Calgary and YellowKnife. Therefore, the day-care system would be in place to take care of children. I personally don't care what happens to the child care system, either way. If it was my choice, I would leave my children with my parents, because they live near by and they of good and sound moral character.

However, with that instance, what about the parents who have the position that relatives live far away or are problems.

For instance, not the same as childcare but in B.C. a child a native girl was placed with her uncle and he beat her to death. I don't think parents want to have their children with family members like that.

 

[bluealberta]

If you watch Global or CTV and they have their experts, they say it is around 8,000 dollars for childcare

Well, I have no idea where they get their figures, but my wife has been in the daycare business for 20 plus years, and has never made that much per child. The going rate here is between $400 and $450 per kid, I do her books, so in this instance, unless their "experts" can provide some other information, they are wrong.

You criticize the Harper plan, but what would a Martin plan do in places like Yellowknife that is different now? You do not honestly think they are going to set up a daycare facility there, do you?

The other point that has been made about the Martin plan is it would only affect 11% of the kids in daycare. Thats a hell of a lot of money for a very small number of kids. There are also indications that the Liberals, in order to "encourage" parents to put their kids in the state sanctioned daycare facilities, are prepared to deny subsidies to all but the state facilities. That, my friend, puts my wife out of work, and I will be damned if I can consider voting for anyone who will deliberately put my wife out of work. Would you? I also cannot support a program that takes kids and literally tries to indoctirinate them from cradle to grave, which is what the liberal plan is trying to do. If you listen to Ken Dryden, that is the plan, make all of the kids little "Stepford Kids".

 

[Jersay]

I ma not interested in the Liberal plan because I don't care. I think there should be a merging of the two. Profit or family child care for whoever, and public child care for whoever at whatever rates decided by provincial and federal governments.

 

[bluealberta]

I ma not interested in the Liberal plan because I don't care. I think there should be a merging of the two. Profit or family child care for whoever, and public child care for whoever at whatever rates decided by provincial and federal governments.

..which is what we pretty much had before the Dryden/Martin plan. Simply put, I prefer choices, not dictates.

However, we seem to have strayed from the thread topic, which is Arctic defense, which I personally think is a great thing, and which I believe we can afford, especially by reducing waste and unnecessary programs.