Harper says `major' changes coming to pension system

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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Why raising OAS to 67 doesn't make sense

Prime Minister Stephen Harper raised eyebrows with a speech last week that fueled speculation he plans to lift the eligibility for Old Age Security to 67 (from 65).

Harper’s argument that deep cuts are required to keep the program afloat deserves closer attention, even though he’s been backpedalling ever since.

I have two points to make:
— There is nothing new in the numbers he quotes about OAS costs rising as baby boomers retire.
— There are ways to reduce costs that won’t incense Opposition parties and organized seniors’ groups.

Let’s start with the statistics, which show that taxpaid pensions for people over 65 will triple to $108 billion by 2030 (from $35.6 billion in 2010).

The Conservative government seems spooked by this figure. But why should it be?

When looked at in the context of Canada’s growing economy, the cost of supporting the demographic bulge is not nearly as scary. As a percentage of our gross domestic product, Old Age Security will rise to 3.1 per cent by 2030 (from 2.3 per cent in 2010) — before declining again after the boomers retire.

These statistics have been well-known and analyzed for many years.


“I’m mystified. Why talk about it now?” says Malcolm Hamilton, an actuary at Mercer Consulting, who’s been following the debate for years. “I’m looking at numbers and projections that I’ve been looking at for over a quarter of a century — without anyone in government saying there was an unmanageable problem.”

With lower fertility rates, one in three Canadians will be retired by 2030. Again, that’s old news.

“It’s always been known that costs would escalate,” Hamilton emphasizes. “Canadians have been led to believe this would be taken care of. Governments would absorb the costs or find economies elsewhere. They should have said something earlier if they had concerns.

“You can’t let people cruise up to retirement age without getting benefits they counted upon. It’s a little late to decide the system is unsustainable.”

And why did Harper increase the guaranteed income supplement (topping up OAS for low-income seniors) in his last budget without hinting that public pensions were under threat? That’s what Hamilton wants to know.

It’s clear the Conservatives are ideologically opposed to raising taxes. If they want to reform Old Age Security to spend money elsewhere, they can do so in other ways without making people wait two years to collect.


I asked a few observers for ideas about reducing the cost that wouldn’t pinch as hard as raising the eligibility age.

Here’s what they said:

Change the inflation indexing of OAS payments.

The OAS rates are adjusted every three months, while other program rates are adjusted once a year. Canada Pension Plan, for example, has only annual indexing.

“While inflation has been low, it had a spike last year. Over a period of time, this change will add up to a fair amount,” says Gordon Pape, author of a new book about retirement realities.

Change the way that OAS payments are taxed back.

Affluent seniors with an individual income of $69,562 have to repay some of their benefits. They lose all their benefits with net income of $112,772. “You can up the clawback rate — start it earlier or phase it out faster,” says John Stapleton, a retired public servant with an interest in social welfare.

“You can also disallow the phony deductions, such as the deductions for flow-through shares only available to well-to-do investors.”

Stop indexing the clawback income levels.

Conservative Finance Minister Michael Wilson didn’t index income levels when he brought in the OAS clawback in the 1990s, says Pape. Only when Jean Chretien’s Liberal government took power later was a change introduced to let the maximum income levels rise with inflation.

Lowering clawback levels or removing indexing on clawback thresholds won’t hurt as many people as raising the age to 67, says Jim Yih, a retirement blogger and consultant.

“If you take away two years of OAS, that’s $12,200 from every Canadian over the age of 65,” he says. “Before the government cuts the retirement income of taxpayers, they had better cut back on their overly lucrative gold-plated pensions first.”

Old Age Security, unlike CPP, is a means-tested program. It favours those without resources over those who have saved for retirement.

If changes are needed — and not everyone agrees they are — the government should tinker with the way it taxes back the OAS benefits instead of making across-the board cuts.


Why raising OAS to 67 doesn't make sense - Moneyville.ca
 
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Durry

House Member
May 18, 2010
4,709
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Canada
Anyone who has to depend on OAS to retire, then that person is not ready to retire. He/she should be working until they can retire without having to rely totally on OAS!
Furthermore, the rules for those accessing GIS, should be changed, maybe even eliminated ..

Quote from above;
Affluent seniors with an individual income of $69,562 have to repay some of their benefits. They lose all their benefits with net income of $112,772.

My comment;
This is incorrect. Affluent seniors do not lose these funds, these funds are scooped up by Revenue Canada and the scooped up amount shows up in your T4(OAS) as Taxes paid..
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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Quote from above;
Affluent seniors with an individual income of $69,562 have to repay some of their benefits. They lose all their benefits with net income of $112,772.

My comment;
This is incorrect. Affluent seniors do not lose these funds, these funds are scooped up by Revenue Canada and the scooped up amount shows up in your T4(OAS) as Taxes paid..

There are numerous articles confirming OAS benefits depend on the level of income. Is there something from Revenue Canada which shows otherwise?
 

Durry

House Member
May 18, 2010
4,709
286
83
Canada
There are numerous articles confirming OAS benefits depend on the level of income. Is there something from Revenue Canada which shows otherwise?
Yes, the amount of OAS that one receives during the year is dependant on income, but the amount that is clawed back goes to Revenue Canada and shows up as Tax paid.
Ask any Charted Acct.!!
I know because in my spare time I help some affluent seniors do their tax return on my computer!!
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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Yes, the amount of OAS that one receives during the year is dependant on income, but the amount that is clawed back goes to Revenue Canada and shows up as Tax paid.
Ask any Charted Acct.!!
I know because in my spare time I help some affluent seniors do their tax return on my computer!!

None of this contradicts anything the article has stated or that raising the age from 65 to 67 is the best idea right now.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
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Anyone who has to depend on OAS to retire, then that person is not ready to retire. He/she should be working until they can retire without having to rely totally on OAS!
..

People wear out after awhile! :smile:
 

relic

Council Member
Nov 29, 2009
1,408
3
38
Nova Scotia
HEY !! LOOK OVER HERE !!
while you'er looking over here {at some bs about old folks eating dog food}a lovely pipeline goes over there because the govt changed he rules and now they don't need an envioronmental study.bazinga !
 

Dixie Cup

Senate Member
Sep 16, 2006
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I'm all for a review of pensions, ESPECIALLY MP ones. The way they are designed now is totally illigel in the private sector. If anyone can get it done it's Harper but it ain't gonna be easy. Something needs to be done if our younger generation is to benefit. That's the problem with providing all kinds of social benefits by governments- when you can't afford them anymore its pure hell to downsize or get rid of them. People actually feel entitled!!

I would much rather there be less benefits, lower taxes and easier ways for individuals to save for their future. That's what I've been striving to do and it ain't easy, that's for sure!!

JMHO
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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Old Age Security change would hurt seniors, Rae says
OAS reforms would start 'domino effect,' Liberal leader says

Any possible change to Old Age Security would have a dramatic domino effect on other social programs and income supplements, interim Liberal Leader Bob Rae said Wednesday.

Speaking after a weekly caucus meeting with Liberal MPs, Rae said seniors also apply for the Guaranteed Income Supplement and social programs offered by provinces based on Old Age Security. The GIS goes to poor seniors to try to bring their income up to the poverty line.

"What Mr. Harper is doing is starting a domino effect which downloads on seniors, downloads on poor seniors, downloads on provinces, downloads on municipalities and has a much more dramatic effect than what he's pretending," Rae said Wednesday.

Any cut to retirement income would be contrary to a promise not to cut transfers to the provinces or to people, he said.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper mentioned in a speech in Davos, Switzerland, last Thursday that he wants to look at retirement income and make sure it's sustainable in the future. His office says while there are four taxpayers for every senior in Canada right now, by 2030 there will be two taxpayers for every senior.

On Monday in the House of Commons, he said he won't cut Old Age Security. All Conservative MPs who responded to a question on retirement income said they would look at ways to make it sustainable and that no cuts to be made would affect anyone now collecting or soon to collect OAS.

In question period Wednesday, Harper said the government will protect seniors now and those who will be seniors in the future.

"A senior will not lose a single penny, nor one near retirement. But we're dealing with those people far off in the future who are very worried about their income security because they understand the pressure the system is under," he said.

Opposition MPs are maintaining pressure on the government over the possibility of OAS cuts, but so far there's little information on what exactly any changes might entail.

Rae said there wasn't anyone in the audience at the World Economic Forum in Davos, a conference of world leaders and business elite, who has to worry about the GIS or old age pensions.

"If they’re not going to do anything, then what was that discourse from the alpine perch about? What was that? Was that just trying to make a bunch of people in the audience happy?" he said.

"Do we know exactly what those changes are? No. I don’t know.… To go to Switzerland and make an announcement about pensions and not have a followup is, frankly, preposterous."

Old Age Security change would hurt seniors, Rae says - Canada - CBC News
 

Cannuck

Time Out
Feb 2, 2006
30,245
99
48
Alberta
Facts about government expenditures

11% - Debt charges
29% - Program expenses
60% - Transfers

Transfers to individuals accounts for 25% of all government expenditures with over half of that going to seniors. Transfers to provinces account for 21% of all funds. Transfers to other organizations (aboriginals, foreign aid, farm aid) account for 14 %. Clearly, cutting handouts and moving people away from the trough is the only reasonable option unless you believe in taxing more.

Cutting programs and axing civil servant is always popular but the reality is that it doesn't save much. Even draconian cuts to the civil service would only save 2-3%. Defense and public safety (RCMP, prisons, border security) account for over 1/3 of program spending.

I do find it amusing that people want the government to cut but next to nobody wants the government to cut their entitlements.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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The bottom line is something has to change and the sooner the better, as putting it off will only make it more onerous later. I'm a person who partially relies on my OAP, but I would agree to having it cut back 10% if every other pensioner with a gross income of over $50 grand a year would agree to the same thing. The problem is here and it's no use bickering over it. Let's change things in the most painless way while we still can. Time to be proactive! :smile:
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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I'm a person who partially relies on my OAP, but I would agree to having it cut back 10% if every other pensioner with a gross income of over $50 grand a year would agree to the same thing.

Well this is precisely the problem.

By raising the age limit from 65 to 67, those who were supposed to receive more from OAS because they have a lower income will get screwed.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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I'm wondering if Harper and Co. aren't focussing on the wrong criteria. Perhaps need rather than age should be the basis for changes. :smile:

Perhaps 95 should be the new retirement age! :lol:

At 95, you
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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Spinning truth Tory strategy

The scale of the backlash over Prime Minister Stephen Harper's proposal to revamp Old Age Security was clear in the hyperbole shouted from the government benches Thursday.

One Tory MP after another stood during the debate over an NDP motion to "reject calls by the prime minister to balance the Conservative deficit on the backs of Canada's seniors," or during member statements and question period to accuse their rivals of "scaremongering."

None of the backbenchers, ministers or even the prime minister bothered to defend or even explain what Mr. Harper meant in telling a European audience last week that Canada would move to secure its retirement income support program. Instead, the government's line is that the Opposition simply is trying to panic seniors by raising this issue.

If that's the Opposition's intent, it's working. Ottawa press gallery members report that Conservative MPs showed up at Wednesday's caucus meeting ready to beg for a retreat after hearing from constituents seriously concerned that the government would be attacking seniors' entitlements.

However, the strategy of turning the table on the Opposition has proven in the past to be a successful one for this government. As Globe and Mail columnist Jeffery Simpson wrote recently, the Conservative government has increased the number of information officers across all departments by 16 per cent - this at a time when it has clamped down in an unprecedented way on the amount of information the public is allowed to get.

Some of these new information officials could be picking up the workload of officials from the RCMP, military, environment, and other agencies who used to speak directly to Canadians before the government began forcing them to vet their messages through political minders.

Even this practice has its political pitfalls, however. This week The Canadian Press reported on a media event staged by the Immigration Department for Sun News, with ministry officials posing as immigrants. The government's explanation is that this was an error by a minor departmental official and Canadians should forget about it.

Also this week, Philip Cross, a senior economic statistician with Statistics Canada, resigned in part because the agency was clamping down on free speech and because he was forced to use questionable data after the government made the formerly mandatory long-form census voluntary. The comment by Industry Minister Christian Paradis was that he is delighted that the response rate for the new survey was so high.

But turning the message on its head is a critical strategy for the Harper government. As Postmedia columnist Stephen Maher points out, by cutting taxes, driving up spending and transferring an increasing share of the burden for flagship social programs such OAS and health care to the provinces, the Conservatives have put themselves in the ideal position to slash federal programs under the banner of fiscal responsibility.

All they have to do is to keep those information officers busy trying to convince Canadians that the Tories are doing the opposite.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Spinning truth Tory strategy

The scale of the backlash over Prime Minister Stephen Harper's proposal to revamp Old Age Security was clear in the hyperbole shouted from the government benches Thursday.

I saw on the news tonight, the N.D.P. and the Liberals (like a bunch of idiots) are starting to raise big protests. We haven't seen anything to protest yet and if there is we don't know what it will be. They are as dumb as my dog, who when I pretend to throw a ball takes off "after it". What they SHOULD be doing is looking at demographics, making some educated guesses as far as financial developments and coming up with a plan that is least detrimental. :smile:
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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I saw on the news tonight, the N.D.P. and the Liberals (like a bunch of idiots) are starting to raise big protests. We haven't seen anything to protest yet and if there is we don't know what it will be. They are as dumb as my dog, who when I pretend to throw a ball takes off "after it". What they SHOULD be doing is looking at demographics, making some educated guesses as far as financial developments and coming up with a plan that is least detrimental. :smile:

There are objective reports showing OAS is sustainable, and that the cost saving measures from raising the retirement age will progressively hurt seniors the lower their income.

Meanwhile, there are other measures to make OAS more efficient without changing the retirement age requirement for that benefit.

These are material facts that, regardless of your "affiliation," have been brought to the Tories for examination, but are being ignored.

Believe me, I've been watching question period and been following this issue intensely. The opposition fields these questions, and the government is spinning it based on the false assumption that demographics changes will mean unsustainability.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
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Vernon, B.C.
There are objective reports showing OAS is sustainable, and that the cost saving measures from raising the retirement age will progressively hurt seniors the lower their income.

Meanwhile, there are other measures to make OAS more efficient without changing the retirement age requirement for that benefit.

These are material facts that, regardless of your "affiliation," have been brought to the Tories for examination, but are being ignored.

Believe me, I've been watching question period and been following this issue intensely. The opposition fields these questions, and the government is spinning it based on the false assumption that demographics changes will mean unsustainability.

The numbers don't bear that out! :smile:
 

Walter

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 28, 2007
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There are objective reports showing OAS is sustainable, and that the cost saving measures from raising the retirement age will progressively hurt seniors the lower their income.
Could you link to these "objective" reports?
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
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Vernon, B.C.
Could you link to these "objective" reports?

I would sure as Hell be interested to see it. This has very little to do with politics. We know the proportion of seniors is rising rapidly as many people now are living into their 90s. That is going to put a huge strain on healthcare as many of the seniors are being kept alive with pills, hoses and needles. We know the race as a whole is getting less and less healthy due to terrible lifestyles like eating junk food and spending hours on end on the couch with very little exercise. So we are going to wind up with old and disabled, the middle aged and disabled, the young and disabled, so we know many who won't qualify for OAP, also won't be able to work due to health concerns. Who is going to be left to foot the bill?