Gun Control is Completely Useless.

Colpy

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LOL For Gawd's sake are you equating those who have been at war with each other for 2000 years or more, with other areas of the developed world? Are you suggesting the laws of nations who are not at war, compose their laws as though they were?? Nah you can't possibly be.

Isn't the goal of most nations, peace and negotiation of differences. Remember Israel was carved out of Arab land at the end of the last world war, without compensation. That sort of beginning kind of permanently sours any relationship. The situation in the middle east is like no other with no end in sight.

The only bearing the on-going conflict has on the debate is that the school shooters in Israel are typically better trained, and much better armed.

When it is demonstrated by Israel's experience that armed civilians both deter and if that fails stop a trained school shooter using a machine gun (to say nothing of grenades) your argument against training and arming school staff is simply blown out of the water.

Deal with it.
 

taxslave

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Nov 25, 2008
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Realize, it is not the guns but the people that are allowed to use them that is the problem?? The laws must be for those aspiring to own a gun. Do we allow children to drive, before reaching a suitably mature age, have had enough knowledge of road rules to not kill or maim themselves or others?

No normal person fears a car or a gun. But, they must if normal, fear the lack of responsibly of some who aspire to acquire them.

What is very obvious is the rabid fear engendered when laws suggesting any sort of limits on the type of weapons, or the capabilities of those who aspire to acquire one are even suggested!! Is it fear of personal impotence or loss of control of their world ?

More like fear of government intrusion in their lives. It is a fact that our lefty governments want all guns registered so they can steal them. This has been proven by previous actions. That and the other irrefutable fact that criminals ignore the gun laws anyway so all it does is but onerous rules on law abiding citizens.


So are mothers the problem?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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More like fear of government intrusion in their lives. It is a fact that our lefty governments want all guns registered so they can steal them. This has been proven by previous actions. That and the other irrefutable fact that criminals ignore the gun laws anyway so all it does is but onerous rules on law abiding citizens.

Actually, it's not a fact.

You really need to figure out the difference between a fact, an inference, a conclusion, and an opinion.
 

taxslave

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Actually, it's not a fact.

You really need to figure out the difference between a fact, an inference, a conclusion, and an opinion.

So can you point to any evidence that suggests criminals care about gun laws?
And it is a fact that our government in years past required automatic weapons to be registered. Not too many years later they changed it to prohibited and confiscated all the registered automatics without compensation.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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So can you point to any evidence that suggests criminals care about gun laws?
Define "criminal." Nikolas Cruz, for example, wasn't a criminal until after he bought the gun.

Your rather simplistic view of "criminals" as career, full time criminals is one of the "facts" I was warning you about.

And it is a fact that our government in years past required automatic weapons to be registered. Not too many years later they changed it to prohibited and confiscated all the registered automatics without compensation.
And whatever the government has done in the past, it will necessarily and inevitably do again, right?

See if this helps. That the government (I assume you mean the Canadian government) required registration of automatic weapons, and later prohibited them, is a fact. It's objectively demonstrable. It happened.

That the government will in the future ban any registered weapons is a conclusion, an opinion, or speculation. It is not objectively demonstrable. It has not happened.

See? There's your difference.
 

bluebyrd35

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Aug 9, 2008
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Of course it is not. Ever heard of personal responsibility?? Too many people haven't and actually NEED to have a reason to not use vioence to get what they want. Ergo that is why we have laws, so hopefully the consequences may possibly will deter some wrong doers.

The alternative has given rights to those without moral consciences. It appears many feel it is better to be famous and dead than bored and alive. Too bad the way of achieving it is by shooting up schools and children.

Bye the way you do know the NRA owns the US Republican party. 30 Million dollars buys a lot of influence.
 

Hoid

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The only bearing the on-going conflict has on the debate is that the school shooters in Israel are typically better trained, and much better armed.

When it is demonstrated by Israel's experience that armed civilians both deter and if that fails stop a trained school shooter using a machine gun (to say nothing of grenades) your argument against training and arming school staff is simply blown out of the water.

Deal with it.
Lots of countries with nobody packing machine guns and nobody shooting up schools.
 

bluebyrd35

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Define "criminal." Nikolas Cruz, for example, wasn't a criminal until after he bought the gun.

Your rather simplistic view of "criminals" as career, full time criminals is one of the "facts" I was warning you about.


And whatever the government has done in the past, it will necessarily and inevitably do again, right?

See if this helps. That the government (I assume you mean the Canadian government) required registration of automatic weapons, and later prohibited them, is a fact. It's objectively demonstrable. It happened.

That the government will in the future ban any registered weapons is a conclusion, an opinion, or speculation. It is not objectively demonstrable. It has not happened.

See? There's your difference.
Actually I never considered Cruz a criminal. There were many, many indications he was mentally unstable and under stress. That can't make him a criminal , only sick.

Gun laws of restrictions on mental, underage, or criminals do not exist and/or are not enforced in your country. Not having such a law and/or making it impossible to implement them makes it a societal failure of all voters. So in my opinion it is your laws and how they are enforced that are criminal.

As for taking away the right to own a weapon of war, may have something to do with our election laws.

"Summary
Contribution and spending limits are regulated by the Canada Elections Act. The Law places limits on contributions to political parties and political candidates. Only individuals or natural persons (not corporations or trade unions) who are Canadian citizens or permanent residents may make contributions. Election expenses are subject to limits for candidates and registered political parties. These limits are calculated according to a formula based on the number of names on the preliminary or revised lists of electors for each electoral district, and on the length of the election period. Candidates and parties may be able to claim publicly-funded reimbursements for some of their election expenses.

Under the Canada Elections Act, only certain networks (not all broadcasters) are required to allocate free time to political parties. Two minutes are allocated to each registered and newly eligible party that did not want any paid broadcasting time, and the remainder of free time is allocated among political parties proportionally to their paid-time allocation. The minimum amount of broadcasting time that a network operator makes available cannot be less than the amount of free broadcasting time that it made available during the last general election.'

It is not a perfect solution but it does mean an individual vote does count more than an entity with a lot of money and no conscience to completely control a government.
 

Hoid

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bluebyrd35

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The only bearing the on-going conflict has on the debate is that the school shooters in Israel are typically better trained, and much better armed.

When it is demonstrated by Israel's experience that armed civilians both deter and if that fails stop a trained school shooter using a machine gun (to say nothing of grenades) your argument against training and arming school staff is simply blown out of the water.

Deal with it.
Sorry but you do NOT get to pick and choose what is relevant to a debate. Cause and effect play a role. An ongoing war certainly plays a role on gun control and when and where how relevant laws are.

So you deal with it!!
 

Colpy

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Good Lord Man, I left you the article......scroll down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Canada

Canada is not the only one.

Sorry but you do NOT get to pick and choose what is relevant to a debate. Cause and effect play a role. An ongoing war certainly plays a role on gun control and when and where how relevant laws are.

So you deal with it!!

It is called "evidence based policy" and Israel is evidence......pretty conclusive evidence, that you are obviously having a very difficult time dealing with.

So, back to you Dearie.....deal with it.
 

bluebyrd35

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Good Lord Man, I left you the article......scroll down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Canada

Canada is not the only one.



It is called "evidence based policy" and Israel is evidence......pretty conclusive evidence, that you are obviously having a very difficult time dealing with.

So, back to you Dearie.....deal with it.
Evidence only in maintaining a state of war......Does not apply to Canada nor as far as I can see any other country in the world. In fact, they (both Arabs & Jews ) are still killing each other after 2000 plus year.

I am not your dearie! You only show ignorance by using such tactics.


Now as to your previous post:- Most mass shooters these days in the US favor the AR-15 and I know it is not classified as a an automatic weapon, for a couple of hundred dollars it can become one. There is NO waiting time in Florida at this point and anyone from 18 years and upwards can purchase one. Originally it was classified as an automatic and many years ago that designation was dropped. So really isn't it time to stop fudging and admit your arguments about reasonable gun control has no basis in fact.
 
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Tecumsehsbones

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Actually I never considered Cruz a criminal. There were many, many indications he was mentally unstable and under stress. That can't make him a criminal , only sick.

Nope, it's a long way from "mentally unstable and under stress" to "not guilty by reason of insanity."

The U.S. follows the M'Naughton Rule, which states that the insanity defense is only available if the accused was unable to distinguish between right and wrong, or was able to so distinguish but was under compulsion so strong as to be irresistible.

It's a tough standard.
 

bluebyrd35

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Nope, it's a long way from "mentally unstable and under stress" to "not guilty by reason of insanity."

The U.S. follows the M'Naughton Rule, which states that the insanity defense is only available if the accused was unable to distinguish between right and wrong, or was able to so distinguish but was under compulsion so strong as to be irresistible.



It's a tough standard.
So the solution is to leave the law as it stands?? Certainly a single automatic pistol a teacher would be carrying would not come close to taking out a AK-15 that has been modified. I believe the range of the 15 is a bit farther that a pistol. The tough standard doesn't deal fairly with the mentally ill or the mentally challenged any more that the inadequate laws deal with people trying to get an education o worshipping as they choose does it. But hey why interfere with the manly wish to show their strength of character by having a big automatic gun.

As far as the last shooting went, I guess it was irisistable in the end considering how many times he was reported to have those urges.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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So the solution is to leave the law as it stands?? Certainly a single automatic pistol a teacher would be carrying would not come close to taking out a AK-15 that has been modified. I believe the range of the 15 is a bit farther that a pistol.
Well, that's certainly true. The AK-15 is without a doubt the most devastating weapon ever devised by the human mind.

The tough standard doesn't deal fairly with the mentally ill or the mentally challenged any more that the inadequate laws deal with people trying to get an education o worshipping as they choose does it.
Sadly, in the U.S. we apply the law as it stands, not as some random Canadian thinks it should stand.

But hey why interfere with the manly wish to show their strength of character by having a big automatic gun.
It's all a lie. I bought one of those guns. It said it was automatic, but actually you had to pull the trigger.

As far as the last shooting went, I guess it was irisistable in the end considering how many times he was reported to have those urges.
You a betting woman?
 

JamesBondo

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Mar 3, 2012
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Bluebyrd, please do not write 'AK-15' in your posts if you want to sound knowledgeable. try AR-15 or AK-47.