France - Too soft on terrorism?

Blackleaf

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Oct 9, 2004
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Europe: Contrasting Reactions to the Militant Threat


Police outside a house in the Whalley Range area of Manchester during an anti-terror raid. On that day, 9 suspects were arrested. But are the French doing enough?


In the early morning hours of May 24, the Police's Anti-Terrorist Unit from Manchester, England, working with the British Immigration Service, four other police departments and the MI5 domestic intelligence service, conducted raids in five British cities, arresting nine people under the country's Terrorism Act. A day earlier, the Netherlands toughened its anti-terrorism stance, passing laws to give authorities greater leeway in dealing with suspects. While Britain, the Netherlands and other countries in Western Europe are reacting to the militant threat in their midst, France remains relatively complacent to its growing problem.

The British raids, which began at 3 a.m. local time, took place in Manchester, London, Birmingham, Liverpool and Middlesbrough. Authorities later released two of the detainees, but are holding five people on suspicion of immigration violations and two on suspicion of supporting terrorism abroad, primarily in Iraq. Those suspected of immigration violations likely will be deported.

Among those detained in Manchester is Taher Nasuf, a man the U.S. government says is a midlevel member of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group and an al Qaeda fundraiser. According to the U.S. Treasury Department, Nasuf was associated with other British-based Libyans who were linked to the al Qaeda-affiliated Algerian Armed Islamic Group. In February, London froze Nasuf's assets on behalf of the United States. Nasuf has denied any link to militant groups.

The Dutch parliament also is reacting to an apparent domestic militant threat in the Netherlands, as highlighted by the November 2004 slaying of filmmaker Theo van Gogh. Parliament on May 23 adopted anti-terrorism measures that will allow prosecutors to approve surveillance, including wiretaps, on suspects as well as the infiltration of suspicious groups, even absent "reasonable suspicion" that the suspects have committed a crime. The law also will expand police authorization to carry out preventative searches and arrests.

In Italy, security forces frequently round up and deport those suspected of involvement in militant cells. In the immediate aftermath of the London Underground attacks of July 2005, Italian security forces conducted major sweeps in northern Italy, deporting dozens of Muslims. More recently, the Italians claim to have disrupted plots to attack mass transportation targets and a cathedral in northern Italy.

By contrast, the French have done little to toughen their anti-terrorism laws or to deport foreign suspects. This likely stems from a French belief that their existing laws are adequate to deal with the militant threat in France, as well as the high degree to which local French law enforcement agencies believe they have tapped into the country's Muslim communities. Indeed, it has been more than a decade since France experienced a serious terrorist attack on it soil. In 1995, two Algerians used homemade bombs to target civilians at Paris metro stations in a campaign that killed eight people and injured more than 150.

As France's Muslim immigrant community grows, however, it has experienced many serious social and economic problems, leading to increasing instability within the community. These tensions were most visibly expressed during riots that raged for weeks in the fall 2005.

For now, the French seem to have adopted a policy of allowing potential militant communities to operate in France -- as long as they do not conduct attacks. This has led to the establishment of several militant networks in the country. As militants in other European countries are increasingly harried by tougher laws and efforts to disrupt their activities, however, they could find the French environment more favorable for operations. Should that happen, the French accord with its immigrants could break down.

stratfor.com. . .
 

aeon

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Jan 17, 2006
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Just for your own information, most of the terrorist attack against france, has been stopped, cause for once, intelligence from a country works for real, and with less budget than london and washington.
 

fuflans

Electoral Member
May 24, 2006
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If British intelligence didn't work then how would they have known to raid the houses? Same with the Italians rounding up terror suspects and all of the other examples cited in the article.

It's the nature of intelligence that usually only failures are exposed ('evidence' for the Iraq war etc.). Obviously that's not always the case, as we have seen from this article.

Are you privy to information about the inner workings of the French, British, American - heck, any intelligence agencies - that would allow you to make the statement that French intelligence works, but the intelligence agencies in other countries do not?
 

Numure

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Apr 30, 2004
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Re: RE: France - Too soft on terrorism?

fuflans said:
If British intelligence didn't work then how would they have known to raid the houses? Same with the Italians rounding up terror suspects and all of the other examples cited in the article.

It's the nature of intelligence that usually only failures are exposed ('evidence' for the Iraq war etc.). Obviously that's not always the case, as we have seen from this article.

Are you privy to information about the inner workings of the French, British, American - heck, any intelligence agencies - that would allow you to make the statement that French intelligence works, but the intelligence agencies in other countries do not?

9/11, London Bombings, Spanish Bombings. Yet the french have the biggest muslim population. And they havnt been hit by any terrorist attack as of yet (Except the ones done by the algerian seperatists quite awhile ago).
 

fuflans

Electoral Member
May 24, 2006
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Of course those were failures in intelligence, but the problem with calling intelligence agencies incompetent is that we'll never know what actually goes on inside of them.

How do you know that the same agencies that failed to prevent the London, Madrid or 9/11 attacks haven't thwarted other attacks? You don't know and I don't know and we probably never will know. There must be some reason they keep receiving funding (even our own, much maligned, CSIS).

Also, do you think that the French intelligence agencies work inside a bubble and that there is no international cooperation? You think that any intelligence coup in France is the result of only French intelligence work?
 

aeon

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Jan 17, 2006
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Re: RE: France - Too soft on terrorism?

fuflans said:
Of course those were failures in intelligence, but the problem with calling intelligence agencies incompetent is that we'll never know what actually goes on inside of them.

How do you know that the same agencies that failed to prevent the London, Madrid or 9/11 attacks haven't thwarted other attacks? You don't know and I don't know and we probably never will know. There must be some reason they keep receiving funding (even our own, much maligned, CSIS).

Also, do you think that the French intelligence agencies work inside a bubble and that there is no international cooperation? You think that any intelligence coup in France is the result of only French intelligence work?


Yes it is, french and german intelligence, are the best in the world, and yet, with a significant lower budget than london and washington.

They are screaming at the international communauty to see what saudi arabia are doing in term of terrorism, and yet, people from washington and london, prefer to insult french and german people to suit their agenda, it is quitly pathetic and shows credibility from those 2 nation, us and uk.
 

Mogz

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Jan 26, 2006
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Edmonton
RE: France - Too soft on

Yes it is, french and german intelligence, are the best in the world, and yet, with a significant lower budget than london and washington.

Um, no. Actually aeon, the two best intelligence agencies on the planet are the British MI6 and Israels Shin Bet (aka Shabak). If you knew anything about global security....you know that. Germany by far does NOT have the best intelligence services. Baader Meinhof ran circles around them for years.
 

Hank C

Electoral Member
Jan 4, 2006
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Calgary, AB
Re: RE: France - Too soft on terrorism?

call it complacent or lucky, but to say "most of the terrorist attack against france, has been stopped, cause for once, intelligence from a country works for real", lets see some proof.
 

Johnny Utah

Council Member
Mar 11, 2006
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Re: RE: France - Too soft on

Mogz said:
Yes it is, french and german intelligence, are the best in the world, and yet, with a significant lower budget than london and washington.

Um, no. Actually aeon, the two best intelligence agencies on the planet are the British MI6 and Israels Shin Bet (aka Shabak). If you knew anything about global security....you know that. Germany by far does NOT have the best intelligence services. Baader Meinhof ran circles around them for years.
The British MI-5 & MI-6 are the world's best. MI-5 is the British version of the FBI and MI-6 is the British Version of the CIA. I would trust those two over the CIA & FBI and CSIS anyday..

Germany's Intelligence sucks as the 9/1 Hijackers came from Germany where they stayed, recruited from such as Mohammed Atta all under German Intelligence noses..
 

fuflans

Electoral Member
May 24, 2006
155
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16
Aotearoa
Re: RE: France - Too soft on terrorism?

aeon said:
Yes it is, french and german intelligence, are the best in the world, and yet, with a significant lower budget than london and washington.

They are screaming at the international communauty to see what saudi arabia are doing in term of terrorism, and yet, people from washington and london, prefer to insult french and german people to suit their agenda, it is quitly pathetic and shows credibility from those 2 nation, us and uk.

Your argument is that the French and Germans are better because they make noise about Saudi Arabia? How do you know that the US and UK intelligence services don't investigate this country as well and/or even <gasp> collaborate with the Germans and French? Oh wait... you don't know.

Do you think that because politicians act like children, professionals don't continue to do their work? I bet you even read about it in a newspaper.
 

aeon

Council Member
Jan 17, 2006
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36
Re: RE: France - Too soft on terrorism?

fuflans said:
aeon said:
Yes it is, french and german intelligence, are the best in the world, and yet, with a significant lower budget than london and washington.

They are screaming at the international communauty to see what saudi arabia are doing in term of terrorism, and yet, people from washington and london, prefer to insult french and german people to suit their agenda, it is quitly pathetic and shows credibility from those 2 nation, us and uk.

Your argument is that the French and Germans are better because they make noise about Saudi Arabia? How do you know that the US and UK intelligence services don't investigate this country as well and/or even <gasp> collaborate with the Germans and French? Oh wait... you don't know.

Do you think that because politicians act like children, professionals don't continue to do their work? I bet you even read about it in a newspaper.


Well like Numure already said, french intelligence already stop many terrorist act in their country, despite they have the biggest amount of muslim in all europe, of course, i say french intelligence are good, because they made noise about saudi arabia, and this is sign, they are doing their job, since it is well known, the implication of saudis in terrorism.

I would also say like mogz, that iIsraels Shin Bet (aka Shabak) are one of the best .