Enough farting around on Iran & Nukes

[Colpy]

In what ways?Describe us and who we are. Marx was one of us? Trotsky was one of us? How about Schiff who backed them? One of us too? Nah Jews would NEVER threaten the likes of you would they? Nah they just killed the first guy who came and have lived in **** since and now plan to off any possible second guy for what gain? Yours?

Ahhh....Petros revealed as a psychotic joo hater!

tch-tch....you should censor yourself more carefully.

 

[earth_as_one]

I voted against Iran possessing nukes. No nation should possess nukes especially those that commit war crimes (the US and Israel are on that list. Iran is not), and crimes against humanity (Israel is on that list, Iran is not).

REALITY CHECK!!!

Cliffy! Fer cryin' out loud, give your head a shake!

There are two major differences between Israel and Iran that make it a very good thing that Israel have nukes and Iran does not......

1. Israel is a secular society, not apt to launch a nuclear attack in a bid to hasten the Second Coming....of whomever.

2. Israel is one of us. Iran is not.

1. If Israel found itself loosing a conventional war and their defenses were breached, you can be certain they'd nuke battlefields and major cities.

2. Israel is not "one of us". Israel and Canada are different countries. Israel's actions have demonstrated many times that when their interests conflict with Canada's interests, they give us about the same consideration as a Gaza militant.

Some examples:

Israel frequently provides their spies with forged Canadian passports.

How Canada got tangled in an Israeli assassination plan that reverberates in the Mideast still...

...Israeli spies masquerading as Canadian tourists all but ignited a new Mideast war...

...These "Canadian tourists" were agents for Mossad, the fabled Israeli intelligence service. Their mission in this quiet, U.S.-friendly Arab city was state-sanctioned assassination – in the name of Israel...

...From the Israeli perspective Khalid Mishal was too credible as an emerging leader of Hamas, persuasive even. He had to be taken out. They struck on Thursday, Sept. 25, 1997. It was just after 10 a.m. – and they botched everything. At the Canadian Embassy in Amman, there was complete confusion. Staff were on the case as soon as a local employee drew attention to radio reports that two Canadians were cooling their heels at Amman's central lockup...

...A woman consular staffer in Amman was rapidly dispatched to investigate. At the Wadi Al-Seer cellblock she found that the detainees, one of whom was bare-chested, were bashed and bruised. Her cursory examination of their passports compounded Ottawa's problem, because she concluded they were genuine and, therefore, that these men indeed were Canadian. But, oddly, they rejected her offer of consular assistance and pleaded that their names not be published...

...When the passports arrived in the Canadian capital, they were subjected to a thorough scientific examination. A relieved Lloyd Axworthy declared them to be "total, complete forgeries ... They weren't even using Canadian stock." Given the history of Israel's abuse of Canadian passports, Ottawa's retaliation was surprisingly light – the brief recall of Ambassador David Berger. There was no threat – or even a hint – of trade sanctions, nor of tougher visa conditions for Israelis wishing to enter Canada. And certainly there was no suggestion that there might be an application to extradite the Mossad hitmen – "A" and "D" – to face charges in Canada....

...In 1973, a woman member of a Mossad team that was systematically shooting its way through a list of Palestinians held responsible for the massacre of Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympic Games carried a Canadian passport. She was arrested in Lillehammer, Norway, and jailed along with five others, after the hit team killed an innocent Moroccan waiter... ...The arrested woman was Sylvia Raphael. South African-born and age 35, she was the Christian daughter of a Jewish father, who migrated to Israel in her late 20s after reading Leon Uris's Exodus. Posing as a Canadian photojournalist...

...A former Canadian kibbutznik emerged to reveal that Israeli agents had gathered up passports on a kibbutz where he had worked in the late 1970s and early 1980s. A Canadian diplomat in the region would explain later that the Israeli authorities had proved adept at extracting current or expired passports by pressuring Canadian passport holders living in Israel to view their willingness to lend their identities to the authorities as a test of their loyalty to Israel....

TheStar.com | Insight | The plot to kill Hamas

These are just the cases which are known. If these assassins had gotten away with murder the evidence trail would have pointed back to Canada. "Friends" don't try to frame each other for murder.

Another example:

Israel murders four unarmed UN peacekeepers including a Canadian soldier.

UN officer reported Israeli war crimes before deadly bombing: widow

A United Nations military observer sent e-mails home to Canada reporting that Israel was bombing schools and waging "a campaign of terror against the Lebanese people" shortly before he was killed by an Israeli bomb in Lebanon, said his widow.

Maj. Paeta Hess-von Kruedener of Kingston, Ont., a member of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, was one of four UN military observers who died when the Israeli Defence Forces bombed a marked United Nations post on July 25, 2006.

Cynthia Hess-von Kruedener said her husband's mission was to report on the hostilities in the area and she believes that is why Israeli forces attacked the Israeli United Nations Truce Supervision Organization (UNTSO) post, despite Israel's claims that the bombing was accidental.

"Obviously they were unhappy with what they were observing. Maybe that post was in the way as well," she said. "I know my husband was reporting war crimes. And I guess they don't want to deal with that."....

CBC News - Ottawa - UN officer reported Israeli war crimes before deadly bombing: widow

Israel was well aware of the outpost's location and that it was manned by UN peacekeepers. Israel claims their target was Hezbollah millitants. Yet the outpost was the only bunker type building in the area and it was destroyed by a bunker buster bomb. Hezbollah had no structures in the area, let alone something requiring a bunker buster bomb.

Israel offered an apology for the attack but refused to cooperate with the investigation. If they were sincere and this incident truly was an accident, then why wouldn't Israel cooperate and why did they use a bunker buster bomb?

 

[MHz]

Since Iran can't seem to mind its own business either its "matters" are not solely its own.

Iran hasn't fought any battles outside it's own borders in a very long time, Israel and the US just love doing that very thing. You're as stupid as this thread.

 

[earth_as_one]

Iran has not now or ever called for the destruction of Israel. They do call for an end to Zionism and an end to the Zionist state of Israel. Claims that Ahmadinejad want to "wipe Israel off the map" (implying a desire to slaughter civilians) is anti-Iran propaganda:

"Wiped off the map" or "Vanish from the pages of time" translation
Many news sources repeated the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB) statement that Ahmadinejad had demanded that "Israel must be wiped off the map",[5][6] an English idiom which means to "cause a place to stop existing",[7] or to "obliterate totally",[8] or "destroy completely".[9]
Ahmadinejad's phrase was " بايد از صفحه روزگار محو شود " according to the text published on the President's Office's website, and was a quote of Ayatollah Khomeini.[10]
According to Juan Cole, a University of Michigan Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History, Ahmadinejad's statement should be translated as:

The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).[11]
​

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) translates the phrase similarly, as "be eliminated from the pages of history."[12]
According to Cole, "Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to 'wipe Israel off the map' because no such idiom exists in Persian". Instead, "He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse."[13]
On June 2, 2006 The Guardian columnist and foreign correspondent Jonathan Steele published an article based on this line of reasoning.[14]
Sources within the Iranian government have also denied that Ahmadinejad issued any sort of threat.[15][16][17] On 20 February 2006, Iran's foreign minister denied that Tehran wanted to see Israel "wiped off the map," saying Ahmadinejad had been misunderstood. "Nobody can remove a country from the map. This is a misunderstanding in Europe of what our president mentioned," Manouchehr Mottaki told a news conference, speaking in English, after addressing the European Parliament. "How is it possible to remove a country from the map? He is talking about the regime. We do not recognize legally this regime," he said.[18][19][20]
Shiraz Dossa, a professor of Political Science at St. Francis Xavier University in Nova Scotia, Canada who presented a paper at the International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust conference in Iran, believes the text is a mistranslation.[21]

Ahmadinejad was quoting the Ayatollah Khomeini in the specific speech under discussion: what he said was that "the occupation regime over Jerusalem should vanish from the page of time." No state action is envisaged in this lament; it denotes a spiritual wish, whereas the erroneous translation—"wipe Israel off the map"—suggests a military threat. There is a huge chasm between the correct and the incorrect translations. The notion that Iran can "wipe out" U.S.-backed, nuclear-armed Israel is ludicrous.[22][23][24]
​

In a June 11, 2006 analysis of the translation controversy, New York Times deputy foreign editor and Israeli resident Ethan Bronner argued that Ahmadinejad had called for Israel to be wiped off the map. After noting the objections of critics such as Cole and Steele, Bronner stated:

But translators in Tehran who work for the president's office and the foreign ministry disagree with them. All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad's statement, including a description of it on his website, refer to wiping Israel away. Sohrab Mahdavi, one of Iran’s most prominent translators, and Siamak Namazi, managing director of a Tehran consulting firm, who is bilingual, both say “wipe off” or “wipe away” is more accurate than "vanish" because the Persian verb is active and transitive.
​

Bronner continued: "..it is hard to argue that, from Israel's point of view, Mr. Ahmadinejad poses no threat. Still, it is true that he has never specifically threatened war against Israel. So did Iran's president call for Israel to be 'wiped off the map'? It certainly seems so. Did that amount to a call for war? That remains an open question."[13] This elicited a further response from Jonathan Steele, who took issue with the use of the word "map" instead of the phrase "wipe out" and criticized this Wikipedia entry (as it was on June 14, 2006) for misrepresenting Ethan Bronner.[25]
[edit] Clarifying comments by Ahmadinejad

President Ahmadinejad has been asked to explain his comments at subsequent press conferences. At a later news conference on January 14, 2006, Ahmadinejad stated his speech had been exaggerated and misinterpreted.[26] "There is no new policy, they created a lot of hue and cry over that. It is clear what we say: Let the Palestinians participate in free elections and they will say what they want."
Speaking at a D-8 summit meeting in July 2008, when asked to comment on whether he has called for the destruction of Israel he denied that his country would ever instigate military action, there being "no need for any measures by the Iranian people". Instead he claimed that "the Zionist regime" in Israel would eventually collapse on its own. "I assure you... there won't be any war in the future," both the BBC and AP quoted him as saying.[27][28]

And asked if he objected to the government of Israel or Jewish people, he said that "creating an objection against the Zionists doesn't mean that there are objections against the Jewish". He added that Jews lived in Iran and were represented in the country's parliament.[27]
​

In a September 2008 interview with Juan Gonzalez and Amy Goodman on the radio and television program Democracy Now!, Ahmadinejad was asked: "If the Palestinian leaders agree to a two-state solution, could Iran live with an Israeli state?" and replied

If they [the Palestinians] want to keep the Zionists, they can stay ... Whatever the people decide, we will respect it. I mean, it's very much in correspondence with our proposal to allow Palestinian people to decide through free referendums.[29]
​

Interviewer Juan Gonzalez called the reply "a tiny opening".[29] Another observer however dubbed it an "astonishing" admission "that Iran might agree to the existence of the state of Israel," and a "softening" of Ahmadinejad's "long-standing, point-blank anti-Israeli stance". Australian-born British human rights activist Peter Tatchell also asked whether the statement reflected opportunism on Ahmadinejad's part, or an openness by Iran "to options more moderate than his reported remarks about wiping the Israeli state off the map."[30]
[edit] Interpretation of speech as call for genocide

The speech was interpreted by some as a call for genocide. For example, Canada's then Prime Minister Paul Martin said, "this threat to Israel's existence, this call for genocide coupled with Iran's obvious nuclear ambitions is a matter that the world cannot ignore."[31]
In 2007, more than one hundred members of the United States House of Representatives co-sponsored a bill,[32] "Calling on the United Nations Security Council to charge Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad with violating the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide and the United Nations Charter because of his calls for the destruction of the State of Israel."[33]
Cole interprets the speech as a call for the end of Jewish rule of Israel, but not necessarily for the removal of Jewish people:

His statements were morally outrageous and historically ignorant, but he did not actually call for mass murder (Ariel Sharon made the "occupation regime" in Gaza "vanish" last summer [sic]) or for the expulsion of the Israeli Jews to Europe.[34]

​

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I referenced wikipedia because it provides a good summary. Anyone can follow the references. Whenever someone references Ahmadinejad's mistranslated out of context quote, its clear they are only interested in demonizing Iran rather than understanding Iran.

BTW, the above is a defense of fact over fiction. I don't care for Iran's leaders or their political system. I try to base my opinions on facts, not hype, misinformation or propaganda.

 

[Cannuck]

Iran hasn't fought any battles outside it's own borders in a very long time, Israel and the US just love doing that very thing. You're as stupid as this thread.

Wrong!

Just because their standing army has not moved outside their borders does not not mean they aren't involved outside their borders. If you are are going to use that argument then, in order to remain logically consistent (not one of your strong suits to be sure), you must then ignore everything the CIA has done. I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen any time soon.

 

[Spade]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1254393087547&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

 

[earth_as_one]

Iran is hostile to Israel. The feeling is mutual. The US and Israel both support and arm Iranian dissident groups, inside and outside Iran.

 

[Kakato]

Earth as one said

I referenced wikipedia because it provides a good summary.

Did you ever hear what Colbert had his audience do to Wiki?:lol:

This scrap has been going on since Salladin,it aint gonna stop now.
I would trust Israel with nukes long before I would trust Iran with them.

 

[L Gilbert]

Iran has said that it would act against Israel if Israel attacked. Deputy Commander-in-Chief Mohammad Reza Ashtiani said he would eliminate Israel from "the scene of the universe".
As far as whatever Amamadjihad says, he's a puppet politician. He's told what to say by the clergy which are the actual leaders of Iran.
I wish there were no such things as nukes. Nothing of the kind for any country.

BTW, Wiki is edited constantly and the entries are checked when they are posted.
Either way, one can easily verify the accuracy in Wiki posts.

 

[Colpy]

Iran is hostile to Israel. The feeling is mutual. The US and Israel both support and arm Iranian dissident groups, inside and outside Iran.

Arm them? There is an armed resistence inside Iran?????? Evidence please.

Oh, and Iran's crimes are commited around the world by proxy.....as far away as Argentina, where a Jewish centre was bombed by Hezbollah....killing dozens, wounding hundreds.......Iran's aim is no less than the eradication of Jewry.......worldwide.....as expressed by their puppets, Hezbollah (and others)

Damned good thing the Israelis DO have nukes, might make the Iranian psychos think twice about introducing their own into the conflict........because Tehran would disappear.

If Israel DIDN'T have nukes, and Iran got them, Israel would disappear.

There is the difference. The Israelis would reply to a threat or they would retaliate.

Iran would innitiate. They have said so repeatedly.

Okay, so now I await with bated breath several dozen more cut-and-pastes that prove nothing. :roll:

 

[ironsides]

Earth as one said

Did you ever hear what Colbert had his audience do to Wiki?:lol:

This scrap has been going on since Salladin,it aint gonna stop now.
I would trust Israel with nukes long before I would trust Iran with them.

So would I.

 

[Kakato]

So would I.

I'm thinking of that graphic picture of the woman buried in the dirt getting stoned to death and thinking,ya,lets give these guys nukes.:roll:

 

[ironsides]

Iran has not now or ever called for the destruction of Israel. They do call for an end to Zionism and an end to the Zionist state of Israel. Claims that Ahmadinejad want to "wipe Israel off the map" (implying a desire to slaughter civilians) is anti-Iran propaganda:



quote]


Do you think that the "Zionist régime" could be removed without destroying the Israeli population? I doesn't matter what Ahmadinejad said, millions will die at Iran's hand, and yes Israel would probably use every weapon at their disposal to prevent it including a preemptive strike.


What and who are these so called armed terrorist that Israel and or the U.S. are supplying?

 

[ironsides]

I'm thinking of that graphic picture of the woman buried in the dirt getting stoned to death and thinking,ya,lets give these guys nukes.:roll:

That is about the same picture I get.

 

[earth_as_one]

I don't think either nation should possess nukes. So far, Iran has been compliant with the NPT. Israel is in the same situation as North Korea regarding NPT compliance. Israel has committed serious war crimes and crimes against humanity. Iran's criminal justice system may be brutal and barbaric, but unlike Israel, Iran has not committed any war crimes or crimes against humanity.

US covert activity inside Iran:
Annals of National Security: Preparing the Battlefield : The New Yorker

 

[L Gilbert]

Perhaps Iran hasn't perpetrated any war crimes on anyone lately. They simply get the Hamas to do that.
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad vowed Friday to keep supporting the Palestinian militant group Hamas until the "collapse of Israel." - http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1020630.html

https://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=publication_details&id=5167

Why would they directly assault Israel? They say Israel doesn't exist and assaulting it directly would be like admitting it exists.

As near as I can tell those are two nations that constantly shoot themselves in their respective feet.

 

[FiveParadox]

Re: Existence of Nuclear Weapons

I voted ‘no’.

I feel that there is no nation that should have nuclear weaponry. I am not an opponent of nuclear technology altogether, but I do feel that its uses as a weapon should be wholeheartedly banned across the board for the entire global community. The consequences of a nuclear strike are too cruel—the long-term mutations, higher cancer instances and diseases are too much of a risk and a danger to future generations. It should be an objective of the human race to wipe out nuclear weapons for the future of the species, and not of one particular nation, or nations.

 

[ironsides]

I don't think either nation should possess nukes. So far, Iran has been compliant with the NPT. Israel is in the same situation as North Korea regarding NPT compliance. Israel has committed serious war crimes and crimes against humanity. Iran's criminal justice system may be brutal and barbaric, but unlike Israel, Iran has not committed any war crimes or crimes against humanity.

US covert activity inside Iran:
Annals of National Security: Preparing the Battlefield : The New Yorker

Ok, U.S. covert activity accepted something was attempted. Iran is not innocent either though.

Deadly Fatwa: Iran’s 1988 Massacre - Iranian Crimes against humanity
Deadly Fatwa: Iran’s 1988 Massacre - Iran Press Watch


http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/hrj/iss20/shahrooz.pdf

 

[earth_as_one]

Like I said Ironsides, Iran's penal system is brutal and barbaric. I was not aware of this 1988 incident, but I researched it and I was able to confirm that something significant happened that year in Iran's prisons. For example:

Khomeini fatwa 'led to killing of 30,000 in Iran' - Telegraph

Your Harvard press reference is also pretty reliable. It references this referenced HRW document:

Ministers of Murder: Iran's New Security Cabinet
and this Amnesty International Report:
Iran: Violations of human rights 1987 - 1990 | Amnesty International

Little about this event was known outside Iran at the time it happened. Most of what is known about this incident originates from highly contradictory personal testimony. What actually happened and scale of this atrocity remains debatable. The number of executed prisoners varies from as low as 2000 to as many as 30,000. Most likely about 3000-4000 prisoners were executed. Which is still significant.

All the victims were prisoners. They were either convicted of crimes against God, being a communist or socialist or treason but also included anyone sympathetic to people convicted of the above "crimes" including family members. This event happened at the end of the Iran/Iraq war when Iranian authorities decided to clean out their prisons. Prisoners convicted of the above crimes were interviewed by a panel. If they answered any question "incorrectly" they were summarily executed. The process sounds more like an inquisition and/or witch hunt than a legitimate judicial inquiry.

HRW classifies this event as a crime against humanity. Amnesty International doesn't use that term, but instead criticizes the unfair trials and summary executions. Some of the executed were only guilty of raising money for food and paying lawyers. Many others were likely innocent victims, guilty only of being related to people of interest.

To some degree, many victims resemble thousands of people currently held in Israeli prisons, in that they aren't guilty of any violent act and are being held indefinitely because they are political activists or politicians. Israel also holds people who are guilty of just being sympathetic or related to people Israel would like to capture or kill.
http://www.fidh.org/Palestinian-Prisoners-in-Israel
Mind you Israel doesn't summarily execute these people. They just keep them locked up indefinitely, which after decades becomes just as unjust and probably more cruel.

I will agree Iran is guilty of a crime against humanity in this case if you will agree that some Israelis soldiers committed war crimes in Gaza nine months ago.

 

[Cannuck]

I will agree Iran is guilty of a crime against humanity in this case if you will agree that some Israelis soldiers committed war crimes in Gaza nine months ago.

Why does your acceptance of these crimes against humanity depend on somebody elses view? Ironside's view of Israeli soldiers has no bearing on Iranian actions. Is it that difficult for you to just accept Iranian crimes against humanity?