English ashamed of our Anglo-Saxon past??

Finder

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Blackleaf said:
Jersay said:
Considering most of your beautiful England was under the control of Vikings, how could they truly be invaders?

I would say only Northern England was controlled by Vikings. Southern England was in control of the Anglo-Saxons. The area controlled by the Vikings was known as the Danelaw.

Well really the vikings controled anywhere were there long ships landed, raided and took whatever they wanted and usually left. Yeah they did settle parts of Scotland and Ireland, but they settled in other parts of Europe and north America too, (Ice Land, Greenland, Nova Scotia, PEI and New Foundland and they say perhaps other places as well)
 

Blackleaf

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Finder said:
Blackleaf said:
as the Anglo-Saxons would later, rape pillage and plunder, Celtic Scotland, and then Celtic Ireland.

Anglo-Saxons in Ireland?

That's a good one. What drugs have you been taking today?


400 years of Anglo-Saxon British invasions, occupations and conquests of Ireland BlackLeaf, what have you been smoking!

But the Welsh and Scots invaded Ireland, too, but they aren't Anglo-Saxon.

Nearly every country in the world, with the possible exception of Canada, has invaded and conquered other countries, especially in Europe.
 

Blackleaf

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Anglo-Saxon mask found at Sutton Hoo, Southern England.

Anyway, I love the Anglo-Saxons. I don't think the English are ashamed of their Anglo-Saxons past. I mean, are the Swedes and Norwegians ashamed of their Viking past, or the Italians ahamed of their Roman and Etruscan past?

I like there language, too, the mother language of Modern English.

Here is a passage from the epic poem Beowulf, an English poem written by the Anglo-Saxons and the first great masterpiece ever written in the English language -


Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon of hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum
monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah
egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð ter
feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad
weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra
ofer hronrade hyran scolde
gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning!


You wouldn't think it's English, but it is. Some of the words still resemble their modern counterparts, such as "god cyning" - "good king." Here it is translated -


Lo! We of Spear-Danes in days of yore
of the fame of the kings, have heard
How those nobles did great deeds
Often Scyld Scefing, from the army of his enemies.
from many warriors, took the mead-benches
terrified the nobles. After he was first
discovered, a foundling, he gained a consolation
waxed under the heavens, prospered in glory,
until eventually everyone in surrounding tribes,
over the whale-road, had to obey
and yield to him. He was a good king!



http://www.britannia.com/history/docs/asintro2.html


And there's the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles, another early English masterpiece. It's so long that it'll probably take years to read.

As Britannia.com says -

"The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle is one of the most important documents that has come down to us from the middle ages. It was originally compiled on the orders of King Alfred the Great in approximately A.D. 890, and subsequently maintained and added to by generations of anonymous scribes until the middle of the 12th Century. The original language was Anglo-Saxon (Old English), but later entries were probably made in an early form of Middle English."

It's just like a diary, where the early English peoples wrote down the events in a particular day in a month of a particular year.


Here is the very beginning in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle translated into modern English -


The island Britain (1) is 800 miles long, and 200 miles broad.
And there are in the island five nations; English, Welsh (or
British) (2), Scottish, Pictish, and Latin. The first
inhabitants were the Britons, who came from Armenia (3), and
first peopled Britain southward. Then happened it, that the
Picts came south from Scythia, with long ships, not many; and,
landing first in the northern part of Ireland, they told the
Scots that they must dwell there. But they would not give them
leave; for the Scots told them that they could not all dwell
there together; "But," said the Scots, "we can nevertheless give
you advice. We know another island here to the east. There you
may dwell, if you will; and whosoever withstandeth you, we will
assist you, that you may gain it." Then went the Picts and
entered this land northward. Southward the Britons possessed it,
as we before said. And the Picts obtained wives of the Scots, on
condition that they chose their kings always on the female side
(4); which they have continued to do, so long since. And it
happened, in the run of years, that some party of Scots went from
Ireland into Britain, and acquired some portion of this land.
Their leader was called Reoda (5), from whom they are named
Dalreodi (or Dalreathians).


Sixty winters ere that Christ was born, Caius Julius, emperor of
the Romans, with eighty ships sought Britain. There he was first
beaten in a dreadful fight, and lost a great part of his army.
Then he let his army abide with the Scots (6), and went south
into Gaul. There he gathered six hundred ships, with which he
went back into Britain. When they first rushed together,
Caesar's tribune, whose name was Labienus (7), was slain. Then
took the Welsh sharp piles, and drove them with great clubs into
the water, at a certain ford of the river called Thames. When
the Romans found that, they would not go over the ford. Then
fled the Britons to the fastnesses of the woods; and Caesar,
having after much fighting gained many of the chief towns, went
back into Gaul
------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are the entries for 449AD to 485AD -

A.D. 449 . This year Marcian and Valentinian assumed the empire,
and reigned seven winters. In their days Hengest and Horsa [[[probably the very first Anglo-Saxons to arrive]]],
invited by Wurtgern, king of the Britons to his assistance,
landed in Britain in a place that is called Ipwinesfleet; first
of all to support the Britons, but they afterwards fought against
them. The king directed them to fight against the Picts; and
they did so; and obtained the victory wheresoever they came.
They then sent to the Angles, and desired them to send more
assistance. They described the worthlessness of the Britons, and
the richness of the land. They then sent them greater support.
Then came the men from three powers of Germany; the Old Saxons,
the Angles, and the Jutes. From the Jutes are descended the men
of Kent, the Wightwarians (that is, the tribe that now dwelleth
in the Isle of Wight), and that kindred in Wessex that men yet
call the kindred of the Jutes. From the Old Saxons came the
people of Essex and Sussex and Wessex. From Anglia, which has
ever since remained waste between the Jutes and the Saxons, came
the East Angles, the Middle Angles, the Mercians, and all of
those north of the Humber. Their leaders were two brothers,
Hengest and Horsa; who were the sons of Wihtgils; Wihtgils was
the son of Witta, Witta of Wecta, Wecta of Woden [[[Anglo-Saxon god, from where "Wednesday" takes its name]]]. From this
Woden arose all our royal kindred, and that of the Southumbrians
also.

((A.D. 449 . And in their days Vortigern invited the Angles
thither, and they came to Britain in three ceols, at the place
called Wippidsfleet.))

A.D. 455 . This year Hengest and Horsa fought with Wurtgern the
king on the spot that is called Aylesford. His brother Horsa
being there slain, Hengest afterwards took to the kingdom with
his son Esc.

A.D. 457 . This year Hengest and Esc fought with the Britons on
the spot that is called Crayford, and there slew four thousand
men. The Britons then forsook the land of Kent, and in great
consternation fled to London.

A.D. 465 . This year Hengest and Esc fought with the Welsh, nigh
Wippedfleet; and there slew twelve leaders, all Welsh. On their
side a thane was there slain, whose name was Wipped.

A.D. 473 . This year Hengest and Esc fought with the Welsh, and
took immense Booty. And the Welsh fled from the English like
fire.

A.D. 477 . This year came Ella to Britain, with his three sons,
Cymen, and Wlenking, and Cissa, in three ships; landing at a
place that is called Cymenshore. There they slew many of the
Welsh; and some in flight they drove into the wood that is called
Andred'sley.

A.D. 482 . This year the blessed Abbot Benedict shone in this
world, by the splendour of those virtues which the blessed
Gregory records in the book of Dialogues.

A.D. 485 . This year Ella fought with the Welsh nigh Mecred's-
Burnsted.



To look at the whole thing, go here:
http://www.britannia.com/history/docs/asintro2.html
------------------------------------------------------------------
So the Chronicles say that the Anglo-Saxons were invited over by the Britons.

((A.D. 449 . And in their days Vortigern invited the Angles
thither, and they came to Britain in three ceols, at the place
called Wippidsfleet.))

So the first Anglo-Saxons came over on three ceols - ships - on the invite of Vortigern, a native Briton. I suppose it's a bit like the pilgrims arriving in North America aboard the Mayflower, only much earlier. It's different from the Vikings who came here because they were bloodthirsty warmongerers.

This is history and culture that Canadians and Americans can only dream of.
 

Finder

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BlackLeaf, give me a break you just can't ignore 400 years of oppression, war, and so on by the British! Of course if there is anybody who could it would be you. Hey I'm not saying the British wern't the only ones, there are the vikings and the Norman invasions of Ireland and I'm syure I'm forggoting to mention others. But the English invasion, has been one of the worst and longest lasting.
 

Finder

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BTW nice pic. Evben though I think you are an British Ultra nationalist , you seem to get nice historical tid bits of information and pics which almost makes up for your extremism. lol
 

Hotshot

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Jersay said:
Yes there should be a monument to the brave Viking warriors who tried to defeat the Anglo-Saxon force there. Just think that was the end of the Viking as an extremely powerful force. What a shame.

What nonscense. A monument to the invaders?? Maybe they should have a monument to Hitler in the middle of London!
 

Jersay

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Hotshot said:
Jersay said:
Yes there should be a monument to the brave Viking warriors who tried to defeat the Anglo-Saxon force there. Just think that was the end of the Viking as an extremely powerful force. What a shame.

What nonscense. A monument to the invaders?? Maybe they should have a monument to Hitler in the middle of London!

Considering the Vikings controlled England itself, and since the Anglo-Saxons are invaders themselves who invaded the 'indigenous' and the celtic communities. Why not? Besides the Vikings as in other topics were more humane than the Anglo-Saxons anyway. So have a monument of a little Viking it would attract so many school children to learn history.
 

Finder

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I'm sure there is some kind of Nordic statue proclaiming a communities ties to there Nordic past somewhere in all of the UK. I know in Ireland (mostly Dublin, they had a whole bunch of viking/nordic stuff)
 

Jersay

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Finder said:
I'm sure there is some kind of Nordic statue proclaiming a communities ties to there Nordic past somewhere in all of the UK. I know in Ireland (mostly Dublin, they had a whole bunch of viking/nordic stuff)

Alright. Good for Dublin. (Sorry Finder and Celtics culture) :D

However, its kind of stupid to say because they were an invasion force that why should we build a statue or commermorate them. The Vikings colonize much of Britain and the Isles for several hundred years. Shouldn't my ancestors deserve some respect as well for the colonizing and the humane practices (just looting and pillaging every once and a while.) :D
 

Finder

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Jersay said:
Finder said:
I'm sure there is some kind of Nordic statue proclaiming a communities ties to there Nordic past somewhere in all of the UK. I know in Ireland (mostly Dublin, they had a whole bunch of viking/nordic stuff)

Alright. Good for Dublin. (Sorry Finder and Celtics culture) :D

However, its kind of stupid to say because they were an invasion force that why should we build a statue or commermorate them. The Vikings colonize much of Britain and the Isles for several hundred years. Shouldn't my ancestors deserve some respect as well for the colonizing and the humane practices (just looting and pillaging every once and a while.) :D

I think they are respected in some regards, I know I've read about Viking kings in what is now the UK in my history books and it didn't paint them as monsters.
 

Jersay

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Finder said:
Jersay said:
Finder said:
I'm sure there is some kind of Nordic statue proclaiming a communities ties to there Nordic past somewhere in all of the UK. I know in Ireland (mostly Dublin, they had a whole bunch of viking/nordic stuff)

Alright. Good for Dublin. (Sorry Finder and Celtics culture) :D

However, its kind of stupid to say because they were an invasion force that why should we build a statue or commermorate them. The Vikings colonize much of Britain and the Isles for several hundred years. Shouldn't my ancestors deserve some respect as well for the colonizing and the humane practices (just looting and pillaging every once and a while.) :D

I think they are respected in some regards, I know I've read about Viking kings in what is now the UK in my history books and it didn't paint them as monsters.

Then why do some guys, surprisingly not Blackleaf, (or ironaxe) who are British who get offensive. They want Anglo-Saxons history remembed which we would all like about our own groups but these other guys about the battle. The Vikings were colonizers of Britain like the Anglo-Saxons so why not have a plague of both and explaining both sides of the conflict.
 

ironaxe

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Jersay said:
Finder said:
Jersay said:
Finder said:
I'm sure there is some kind of Nordic statue proclaiming a communities ties to there Nordic past somewhere in all of the UK. I know in Ireland (mostly Dublin, they had a whole bunch of viking/nordic stuff)

Alright. Good for Dublin. (Sorry Finder and Celtics culture) :D

However, its kind of stupid to say because they were an invasion force that why should we build a statue or commermorate them. The Vikings colonize much of Britain and the Isles for several hundred years. Shouldn't my ancestors deserve some respect as well for the colonizing and the humane practices (just looting and pillaging every once and a while. regularly and violently before coming unstuck at Stamford Bridge you mean.) :D

I think they are respected in some regards, I know I've read about Viking kings in what is now the UK in my history books and it didn't paint them as monsters.

Then why do some guys, surprisingly not Blackleaf, (or ironaxe) who are British who get offensive. They want Anglo-Saxons history remembed which we would all like about our own groups but these other guys about the battle. The Vikings were colonizers of Britain like the Anglo-Saxons so why not have a plague of both and explaining both sides of the conflict.

So I'm "offensive" now?

You're a sly hypocrite- we recently had an affable, mature and intelligent historical debate about the Vikings and Stamford Bridge, now you're insinuating that I'm what...some type of 'nationalist'?

Wrong. If that's your childish and sneaky attitude, fine, but get your hints , details and accusations about other posters correct before you post. You're the nationalistic one with an angle, pining on about how the vikings were this and that.
 

Finder

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ironaxe, while you miss his point I think completely. He is saying how it would seem people completely ignore the "good" a certain group has, be it the French, Vikings or Saxons, it doesn't really matter. I think being proud of your people is one thing but openly scorning another because they are not from your group is another. I personally don't mind studing Saxon history and find it interesting, as I don't mind reading about Norman or Anglo-Saxon histories as they all have there intreasting traits. Do I think Anglo-Saxons are better then anyone else... nah, not at all, but at the same time they have their strenths and their weaknesses. Ultra nationalists rarely admit to the weaknesses and often point out those in other culturers. For instance, one of the members (well more then one) loves to sh*t on french culture as often as possible and highlight the greatness of his own.
 

ironaxe

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ironaxe, while you miss his point I think completely. He is saying how it would seem people completely ignore the "good" a certain group has, be it the French, Vikings or Saxons, it doesn't really matter. I think being proud of your people is one thing but openly scorning another because they are not from your group is another. I personally don't mind studing Saxon history and find it interesting, as I don't mind reading about Norman or Anglo-Saxon histories as they all have there intreasting traits. Do I think Anglo-Saxons are better then anyone else... nah, not at all, but at the same time they have their strenths and their weaknesses. Ultra nationalists rarely admit to the weaknesses and often point out those in other culturers. For instance, one of the members (well more then one) loves to sh*t on french culture as often as possible and highlight the greatness of his own.

Yes, but I shouldn't be roped into this, as I haven't denigrated anyone else's culture, whether I admire them or not.

Do I rate the Normans or Vikings? Nah, but I respect the rights of posters to promote facts of their own history.
 

Jersay

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ironaxe said:
Jersay said:
Finder said:
Jersay said:
Finder said:
I'm sure there is some kind of Nordic statue proclaiming a communities ties to there Nordic past somewhere in all of the UK. I know in Ireland (mostly Dublin, they had a whole bunch of viking/nordic stuff)

Alright. Good for Dublin. (Sorry Finder and Celtics culture) :D

However, its kind of stupid to say because they were an invasion force that why should we build a statue or commermorate them. The Vikings colonize much of Britain and the Isles for several hundred years. Shouldn't my ancestors deserve some respect as well for the colonizing and the humane practices (just looting and pillaging every once and a while. regularly and violently before coming unstuck at Stamford Bridge you mean.) :D

I think they are respected in some regards, I know I've read about Viking kings in what is now the UK in my history books and it didn't paint them as monsters.

Then why do some guys, surprisingly not Blackleaf, (or ironaxe) who are British who get offensive. They want Anglo-Saxons history remembed which we would all like about our own groups but these other guys about the battle. The Vikings were colonizers of Britain like the Anglo-Saxons so why not have a plague of both and explaining both sides of the conflict.

So I'm "offensive" now?

You're a sly hypocrite- we recently had an affable, mature and intelligent historical debate about the Vikings and Stamford Bridge, now you're insinuating that I'm what...some type of 'nationalist'?

Wrong. If that's your childish and sneaky attitude, fine, but get your hints , details and accusations about other posters correct before you post. You're the nationalistic one with an angle, pining on about how the vikings were this and that.

I said surprisingly not ironaxe or Blackleaf, that you guys weren't the ones getting offensive of the idea. A few other people, like Hotshot and a few others who have nothing to do with Britain. Sorry if you misunderstood or didn't see not.
 

Jersay

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You're a sly hypocrite- we recently had an affable, mature and intelligent historical debate about the Vikings and Stamford Bridge, now you're insinuating that I'm what...some type of 'nationalist'?

Wrong. If that's your childish and sneaky attitude, fine, but get your hints , details and accusations about other posters correct before you post. You're the nationalistic one with an angle, pining on about how the vikings were this and that.

Sadly this is a misunderstanding. I said ironaxe and Blackleaf were not the ones, they respected the Vikings and presented facts of Anglo-Saxon and stuff. Others. Sorry for people to get confused.
 

ironaxe

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Jersay said:
You're a sly hypocrite- we recently had an affable, mature and intelligent historical debate about the Vikings and Stamford Bridge, now you're insinuating that I'm what...some type of 'nationalist'?

Wrong. If that's your childish and sneaky attitude, fine, but get your hints , details and accusations about other posters correct before you post. You're the nationalistic one with an angle, pining on about how the vikings were this and that.

Sadly this is a misunderstanding. I said ironaxe and Blackleaf were not the ones, they respected the Vikings and presented facts of Anglo-Saxon and stuff. Others. Sorry for people to get confused.

Jersey (and Finder)

I would like to apologise for my earlier posts today- this morning I completely misread your post as I was busy getting ready and dashing off to work. Should have concentrated. Sorry again.
 

Jersay

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ironaxe said:
Jersay said:
You're a sly hypocrite- we recently had an affable, mature and intelligent historical debate about the Vikings and Stamford Bridge, now you're insinuating that I'm what...some type of 'nationalist'?

Wrong. If that's your childish and sneaky attitude, fine, but get your hints , details and accusations about other posters correct before you post. You're the nationalistic one with an angle, pining on about how the vikings were this and that.

Sadly this is a misunderstanding. I said ironaxe and Blackleaf were not the ones, they respected the Vikings and presented facts of Anglo-Saxon and stuff. Others. Sorry for people to get confused.

Jersey (and Finder)

I would like to apologise for my earlier posts today- this morning I completely misread your post as I was busy getting ready and dashing off to work. Should have concentrated. Sorry again.

That is okay. :D