Energy East pipeline not a boon for refineries: Report

lone wolf

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Nov 25, 2006
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It probably was in my own case. I signed on at locked-in rates with one of those energy discounters. So far both hydro and gas have remained fairly stable (with the exception of Hydro's delivery charges) while neighbours who pay only to the utility have bills all over the range.
 

captain morgan

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Mar 28, 2009
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From what I understand, the discounters will lock in their prices depending on the # of customers that have done the same with them.... That is not a bad system in that you at least have some idea as to what your costs will look like for the duration of the agreement.

Sounds to me like your particular agreement is up for renewal.. Might this be the case?
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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Gas contracts are generally bought on the futures markets. The gas you are burning today was probably purchased on contract 3 or 6 months ago.

CM
School me please.
How many barrels will be exported. i am fine with that.
That means revenues - fed- prov
Also increase Canada's profile as a stable energy exporter- not like Russia.
Jobs are created in AB, oil sands.

WTF is the problem
Buy cheap oil for eastern Canada from other sources - sell high.
 

captain morgan

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Mar 28, 2009
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CM
School me please.
How many barrels will be exported. i am fine with that.
That means revenues - fed- prov
Also increase Canada's profile as a stable energy exporter- not like Russia.
Jobs are created in AB, oil sands.

WTF is the problem
Buy cheap oil for eastern Canada from other sources - sell high.

First off, I am in no way expert in the area. There are a ton of variables in play, but I think that I can provide the basics.

Understanding that Canada has only 2 real customers, the Americans and ourselves, we have no options to shop for the best price of the commodity. In addition to this, not only do we sell it at a discount to US refiners, we by it back at the value-added price.

Opening the markets to China and Europe will have a direct impact on the profitability of the oil companies, the O&G service companies, increase investment/development of oilsands and conventional production and employ more people directly in the sector but also in the secondary areas (engineering firms, accountants, lawyers, traders, trades, etc.)

i know that people really hate the phrase 'trickle down economics' but in this case, it has real potential and a real impact.

Possible Future with Energy East

  1. Energy East will transport approximately 550,000 barrels per day to the East Coast.
  2. This crude will largely be refined by Gibsons on the East Coast and sold (preferably) into Europe where the prices for Brent Crude are higher than West Texas Intermediate (WTI).
  3. There is a good chance that some of this production will be refined in Que or Ontario that would service the local/provincial markets and possibly be sold in the NE USA.
  4. Opportunity to hire tens of thousands in the construction phase (direct & indirect) with legacy employment in the mid thousands.
  5. Opportunity to source raw materials (ie ore to produce pipe, etc) from Canadian firms that may be struggling today.
  6. Development of export ports (marine) can attract foreign crude supplies that can be refined in Canada on a value-added basis and sold at a decent profit into Europe/Asia (all of this taxable in Canada).

Existing Scenario

  1. Presently, oil and gasoline (and some natural gas) sold in Eastern Canada is sourced in Western Canada, shipped to the NE USA where it is processed and later sold back to Canada (Ont & Que) as a finished product.
  2. Many US refiners also purchase crude from the Middle East, Mexico, South America, etc that is processed in the USA and then sold into the Canadian markets primarily in Eastern Canada.
  3. Western Canadian crude is presently sold into the US markets at a discount to WTI (it is a lower grade).
  4. As we have no options to sell elsewhere, the US can essentially determine the price of Canadian oil
  5. Existence and development of infrastructure in the US makes it less economic (over time) to engage the same infrastructure domestically (ports, etc).
 

Colpy

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Energy East pipeline boon for refineries an ‘empty promise’ because most oil will go overseas: Report

CALGARY — The proposed Energy East pipeline won’t be the boon to Eastern Canadian refineries that supporters claim because the vast majority of the oil in it would be bound for export markets, environmental groups argue in a report being released Tuesday.

The $12-billion project would likely use the lion’s share of its 1.1 million barrel per day capacity to send unrefined oilsands crude to markets like India, Europe and possibly the United States, says the report, penned by The Council of Canadians, Ecology Action Centre, Environmental Defence and Equiterre.

The pipeline would run 4,600 kilometres from Alberta to Saint John, N.B., using repurposed pipe already in the ground for roughly two thirds of the way.

The company planning to build it, TransCanada Corp., aims to file a formal regulatory application this summer. It’s been actively engaging with communities along the route in an effort to build support.

Backers in industry and government have said Energy East will help ailing refineries in the East — reliant on high-cost crude from abroad — by connecting them with a stable, low-cost supply from Western Canada. The proposal also includes export terminals in Quebec and Saint John, N.B., from which some of oil can be sent overseas by tanker, getting producers a better price for their crude.

But Tuesday’s report says the three refineries along the Energy East route — Suncor Energy’s in Montreal, Valero’s near Quebec City and Irving’s in Saint John, — have a combined capacity of 672,000 barrels per day.

Of that, the groups figure 550,000 barrels per day can come from elsewhere — offshore crude in Atlantic Canada, booming U.S. shale resources and, eventually, via Enbridge Inc.’s recently approved reversed Line 9 pipeline between southwestern Ontario and Montreal. That leaves just 122,000 barrels per day of refining capacity that can be served by Energy East, the report says.

“It’s very frustrating to watch a company trying to convince Canadians that they should accept these massive risks based on some perceived benefit that they may receive. When you dig into it, you find that it’s an empty promise,” said Adam Scott, with Environmental Defence.

“It’s just not true that Eastern Canada’s going to benefit in the way that TransCanada’s saying they are. And when you look and see that this is a project about putting vast quantities of oil onto tankers and shipping them out of the country, people who are convinced that ’this is going to mean more local jobs for me’ are going to be very disappointed.”

Energy East pipeline boon for refineries an ‘empty promise’ because most oil will go overseas: Report | Financial Post

What stupidity.

I can look out my window at work any day and see 2 or 3 tankers at anchor waiting to unload oil for the Irving Refinery. How much better it would be to see them waiting to load Canadian oil for overseas!!!!

And the oil is moving NOW. I could take a picture of dozens, if not hundreds of oil tankers sitting in a rail yard, waiting to be unloaded...........Now, perhaps you could ask the good citizens of Lac Megantic whether it would be safer going through a pipeline.....

The OP is complete idiocy.
 

lone wolf

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The Lac Megantic tragedy was the result of poor track maintenance on a railroad not designed for the traffic demands. Energy East is an old pipe being repurposed for a use it was not designed for. Both were second rate solutions designed for maximum profit at lowest cost. Can you understand my reluctance to go "Yippie!"
 

Colpy

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The Lac Megantic tragedy was the result of poor track maintenance on a railroad not designed for the traffic demands. Energy East is an old pipe being repurposed for a use it was not designed for. Both were second rate solutions designed for maximum profit at lowest cost. Can you understand my reluctance to go "Yippie!"

You don't have to go "Yippee!".....but you could tell me the last time 40 people died from a leaking oil pipe.......
 

wulfie68

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Mar 29, 2009
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Rail is inherently more dangerous to people and the environment for 3 reasons:
1)more moving parts to fail;
2)temporary connections via hoses for loading/unloading instead of hard lines;
3)more exposure to outside impacts that can compromise the integrity of the container.

The fact that the pipeline is 1950s vintage may not actually be a concern. If the product contained was a non-corrosive (processed natural gas of the quality in transmission lines is non-corrosive) and if the owner maintained an adequate soil-side corrosion mitigation program (through the use of coatings and cathodic protection, both of which have been in use for near 100 years on pipelines), the pipeline may be in very good shape.

The concerns about the product being an "abrasive" are spurious. The velocities involved are too low for any sand left in the product to be abrasive to carbon steel.

The heat cycling concern is also a non-issue, as gas lines are also prone to it. The 9 ft of frost is something encountered across the country (unless you're in places like the wet coast) so again its not anything new or that should not have been engineered for.

One thing I would like to see, that the federal gov't hasn't done, is to incorporate a more stringent federal code of regulations, like the US has done. Right now, aside from building everything to CSA Z662, the operational issues are mostly provincial. I would love to see mandatory in-line inspections like the US DOT demands: every 5 years for liquids and every 7 years for gas lines. These go a long way toward assessing the actual "health" of pipelines.
 

captain morgan

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Energy East is an old pipe being repurposed for a use it was not designed for. Both were second rate solutions designed for maximum profit at lowest cost. Can you understand my reluctance to go "Yippie!"

One of the biggest hurdles in this discussion relates to the inability of companies like TCPL or Enbridge to construct new lines at all. On one hand, there is a public outcry on the accessibility and cost of energy (you mentioned that your nat gas bills are on the rise), yet people like the author of this thread fabricate all manner of reason why they should net be developed in the first place (ironically ignoring the fact that the existing p/l network brings them their much needed energy).

One of TCPL's motivations in seeking to reverse this line is because it removes years of BS and admin in order to supply the demand that exists.
 

Locutus

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MHz

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I notice it said a 'better price' for the owners. Is this the contingency plan if the lies going south don't use all the raw product from the plant.
Just what is the 'raw product' from the area? (extreme heavy oil as far as I know) How many lines go that way because one will be shut down for this one?