Elderly Man Shot With Stun Gun For Swinging Cane At Officers

[Colpy]

Not what you said a while ago.

I believe I said I would pit him against a (singular) young guy, not two cops...........the point being he would be a dangerous as most young men in a confrontation.

Not very likely when you are using it to parry a cane or separate someone from their cane. Either way, that's irrelevant. You said a stun gun isn't deadly. You were wrong.

I never said a stun gun could not kill, I said the use of one is considered non-lethal force. Ditto for a baton. Matter of preference.

Pros like SAS or Seals? Funny I always thought they were the headshot type. A cousin of mine was a SF sniper in Viet Nam: never went for the body. Body shots are for the panic-stricken sort who isn't sure of the target nor their ability.

Pros like the SAS or snipers do NOTHING but train, are NOT acting in self-defense, and are using long guns, not pistols (usually) A BIG difference..........apples and oranges.

 

[Tonington]

Well guys, I'm not completely sure you are wrong.............but, as I said earlier, I'd have put my old man up against most young guys when he was 70...........

Secondly, a stun gun is not lethal force.......I'd rather be shot with a Taser than hammered with clubs.

My people don't carry Tasers, batons, or pepper-spray. If they are in immediate danger of death OR grievous bodily harm, they SHOOT you. Some one attacking you with ANY weapon satisfies that prerequisite. That is what I teach them in a course approved by government.

We all know how that would end up if he used lethal force. I worked at a provincial camping park where the Conservation officer was attacked by a site filled with boozed up teenagers. One hand on his radio, the other grabbed his asp. He dropped two of them(one was about to smash him in the head with a concrete site post) and fumbled through the darkness to his vehicle with rocks and booze bottles flying past him. I just barely got the gate up in time before the 4 RCMP cars would have smashed right through it at 80 km/h. The sad thing is that they all agreed-my next shift there was 8 CO's from around SW Nova- that he would have been canned if he had of used his weapon.

 

[L Gilbert]

I never said a stun gun could not kill, I said the use of one is considered non-lethal force. Ditto for a baton. Matter of preference.

What you said was "Secondly, a stun gun is not lethal force". You were wrong. It may not be considered lethal, but considerations can be wrong.

Pros like the SAS or snipers do NOTHING but train, are NOT acting in self-defense, and are using long guns, not pistols (usually) A BIG difference..........apples and oranges.

You're saying they don't know how to use sidearms for headshots? rofl General snipers may be inefficient with short barreled weapons, but I wouldn't pit my armored-car guard against an SAS or Seal with sidearms if I were you, they'd end up with a couple 9mm in their noggins.

 

[Colpy]

What you said was "Secondly, a stun gun is not lethal force". You were wrong. It may not be considered lethal, but considerations can be wrong.



You're saying they don't know how to use sidearms for headshots? rofl General snipers may be inefficient with short barreled weapons, but I wouldn't pit my armored-car guard against an SAS or Seal with sidearms if I were you, they'd end up with a couple 9mm in their noggins.

First off, syun guns vs batons is splitting hairs.

Secondly, the only time I recall SAS boys using head shots was in the assasination of 4 IRA bombers in Gibralter.......they were shooting MP5s from ambush at unawares individuals moving slowly. NOT handguns, NOT in self-defense. I promise you, put the SAS boys in a street combat situation with handguns, and they shoot for centre mass.

I explained above why centre mass is appropriate.

I also pointed out that SAS troopers do NOTHING but train, so are to be expected to be of superior skill to an armoured car guard.

As well, YOU take on any of my boys and restrict yourself to only head shots.........where do you wish to be buried?

BTW, we do teach head shots.....but only on the third round after two shots to the torso show no reaction. Increasingly, crooks wear body armour.

 

[L Gilbert]

As well, YOU take on any of my boys and restrict yourself to only head shots.........where do you wish to be buried?

Nowhere. Gonna be cooked. Too old and buggered up for that stuff anyway, even with paint guns.

BTW, we do teach head shots.....but only on the third round after two shots to the torso show no reaction. Increasingly, crooks wear body armour.

Well, then you'll have to gain a little more confidence in your abilities as shooters then, huh?

BTW, I knew why guards and cops shoot for the torso long ago. My comment on confidence and ability stands.

Anyway, the police overreacted against the old guy.

 

[L Gilbert]

They'll be tackling 2 year-olds for throwing their binkies next thing. :roll:

 

[Tonington]

Haha, look out for that projectile baby vomit!

 

[L Gilbert]

Oh, that'd be definitely grounds for using deadly force. lol

 

[MikeyDB]

Colpy is absolutely right on this one...

Any latitude for consideration of error in judgment occurs in assessing the degree of imminent danger to someone else or the officer intervening in a violent dispute/conflict. I'd agree that two trained officers confronting an elderly man wielding a cane..regardless of its composition... should have been able to effect an arrest without deadly force, or in this case the use of electric shock. I wasn't there. Only somone present at the situation has sufficient information to make the call. Second guessing (arm-chair quarterbacking) is great for yackin it up on an electronic bulletin board, but serves no useful purpose when involved directly and immediately in the difficult situation.

We don't train and arm people with implements of deadly force because they're NOT NEEDED! Unfortunately psychological development (evolution over millions of years) appears to have skipped over human beings who still prefer to wage violence and war on each other...an inherent predisposition to self-destruction ...in constant and continuing conflict with the biological imperative to survive...go figure!

I was trained to shoot to kill and participate in a sport that allots higher points for center of mass or head shots than other areas of the target. The roots of the sport are in combat/practical application of lethal force. Thankfully as a civilian I've never been in a situation that demands making that call...that said, if I found myself through some highly improbable convergence of unlikely simultaneous dynamics, assessing the situation and finding that immediate lethal force was the only alternative available...I'm sad to say that the perpetrator would be worm food.

Seeing as how I'm not that much younger than the fellow in Tampa, I'm not sure I'd survive fifty-thousand volts streaming across an already damaged cerebellum...

That said as well, even if the cause behind this fellows behavior was illness or drugs, it's far more likely he would survive that treatment than a nine milly in the noggin.... terminal lead poisoning...

 

[tracy]

I'd love for the second guessers to have to face a violent old man with a cane...

 

[Colpy]

Nowhere. Gonna be cooked. Too old and buggered up for that stuff anyway, even with paint guns.

Well, then you'll have to gain a little more confidence in your abilities as shooters then, huh?

BTW, I knew why guards and cops shoot for the torso long ago. My comment on confidence and ability stands.

Anyway, the police overreacted against the old guy.

A couple of points, then I'll drop the subject......

First of all, I can stand at 20 metres with a DAO revolver and shoot head shots all day long on a stationary target. Big deal. Make the target MOVE, and put me under the stress of having my life threatened, and well..........probably not. In fact most assuredly not.

More importantly, there is another reason head shots are frowned upon. As hard as it is to believe, the chances of stopping an attack with a hit to the head are LESS than the chances of stopping an attack with a solid torso hit. Look in a mirror. Your head, from the front, is a mass of bone. You have heavy jaw bones, a brow ridge, and a mouth full of teeth. Defensive handguns are basically pop guns, and bullets from them are easily defelected by bone mass. Shooting for centre mass is the best way to stop, period.

Don't argue this one with me, argue with Evan Marshall, a Detroit homicide detective with over 25 years experience, who has studied the stopping abilities of handguns and published a book on the subject.