Drawing Political Lines

[darkbeaver]

I hate it more from the armchair politicians .

I'm not one of them, I'm an armchair potentate.

 

[SLM]

I do not like to be told as a citizen what to do, say, watch, how to speak, what language to speak or whether I can shop on sundays. That sorta thing. Those that try lose points on my scorecard. I'll still rather vote for them though because their rank is higher than that of the next bunch of wankers with my best interests in mind (they say).

I don't much like that sort of thing either. I want government to be there to serve the will of the people, not to put into place their vision of what Canada should be. I want them to legislate, where necessary, and regulate and then stay hands off the rest.

In short I'd like to see a party that actually listens to us and doesn't tell us what it is that we want. I've yet to see any of them do that.

Too much control is no good. Too much government interference, control or hand-holding will also score low. I learn more each day but will likely never vote NDP. :lol:

I have on at least one occasion voted NDP. While never having been a plan of their platform per se (what there is of it) it was during a time when I was really heavily dissatisfied with the Liberals (this was during the Chretian years) and the Tories had all of 4 seats in the House (or something like that) and this particular candidate I honestly thought would work hard for the riding. They didn't get in though, we got McSquinty's brother.

Many people express their vision of morality through their political views and actions. Such people often find their vision of morality is so compelling that it justifies any and all political actions without regard to the means used to achieve their compelling vision.

Saul Alinsky was one such man. His book Rules for Radicals laid out a set of principles and tactics, perhaps normative ethics, that are very effective in achieving political power. This is one of his rules...maybe the most important:


“Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.”

Picking a target, freezing, personalizing and polarizing it makes it impossible to effectively govern a polity after having obtained power.

The problem for the USA is that it is necessary to adopt Mr. Alinsky's rules in order to achieve power. That's why Americans demonize each other and are so polarized. The fact that these rules are now incorporated into American political culture means that the American polity will rip itself apart through factionalism. De Tocqueville and others noted the potential for this phenomenon in America. It's too bad it came to this, but it does seem as though every democratic or republican society ultimately commits suicide. Maybe Canada can escape this fate because of its huge size, small population, abundant resources, and tradition of comity.

I agree polarization is heavy in American politics, more so than anywhere else it seems. The thing is though that it's not just American's that are polarized about American politics, it seems like everyone else is to. Which is an odd thing when you stop and thing about it. Almost like it's contagious or something.

Ive never fully agreed with any one party. I go for the one most in line with my views at the time. Ive voted for three of them and been a member of two so far.

So far? Lol. And you're still young. Imagine when you've had 20 years voting under your belt?

I'm not one of them, I'm an armchair potentate.

All hail the armchair.

 

[darkbeaver]

All western politicians must meet "international community" standards which mean that community comes first and second and the voting western citizen dosn't get to come at all.

 

[Cliffy]

I
I am jaded regarding political parties and I feel resentful of strong party supporters regardless of sides because I think they support the status quo and that means no change will ever happen. I see them as dead wood and an impediment to change for the good of the individual and the country.

Bingo!

I'm not one of them, I'm an armchair potentate.

I am an impotentate.

 

[WLDB]

So far? Lol. And you're still young. Imagine when you've had 20 years voting under your belt?

Ive almost got 20 years of following politics under my belt. I was hooked by 10. Followed it a hell of a lot closer than most adults I knew. Neither of my parents ever voted or really paid attention to issues which really annoyed me at the time. I remember having a literal 'facepalm' moment when I was 13 and my father said he had no idea who the premier was...and he has lived in Ontario his whole life.

I agree polarization is heavy in American politics, more so than anywhere else it seems. The thing is though that it's not just American's that are polarized about American politics, it seems like everyone else is to. Which is an odd thing when you stop and thing about it. Almost like it's contagious or something.

Their polarization is really weird considering in practice the Democrats and Republicans dont run things all that differently from one another. Well, not on foreign policy anyway. They are both pretty consistent on that. Domestic stuff is another issue but even then they arent radically different in practice compared to the way they seem to be during campaigns.

 

[darkbeaver]

Their polarization has been standardized by lobbying and donations.

 

[GreenFish66]

I'm an Environmentally Minded Social Conservative ; Non-Partisan...I vote for the Party/People I believe can best lead the Country in the direction I think it should go; at that time.

What ever team has the most of my favorite Players on it...That's the team I root for.

I don't believe any Party or Person should be allowed to stay in power longer than 10 years.

______________________________________

Business People Grow Biz, Make Money...Politicians Talk ****, Grow Budgets. We all Pay for it, one way or another.
( Cynical, Nah...Ok, maybe a little. )_________________________________________

Gov. Is all about Control and Money...Business is all about Money and Control...The rest of us Pay for it, one way or another.
Is All about Power!
I say, Power to the People!

 

[SLM]

Ive almost got 20 years of following politics under my belt. I was hooked by 10. Followed it a hell of a lot closer than most adults I knew. Neither of my parents ever voted or really paid attention to issues which really annoyed me at the time. I remember having a literal 'facepalm' moment when I was 13 and my father said he had no idea who the premier was...and he has lived in Ontario his whole life.

That is a facepalm moment.

Their polarization is really weird considering in practice the Democrats and Republicans dont run things all that differently from one another. Well, not on foreign policy anyway. They are both pretty consistent on that. Domestic stuff is another issue but even then they arent radically different in practice compared to the way they seem to be during campaigns.

It's kind of like the Hatfields and the McCoys.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

That is a facepalm moment.

Why? Seems a lot more sensible than what we often see on this board: people who loudly proclaim that it makes no difference who's in office, and then obsessively follow the parties and personalities whose presence in office they claim makes no difference.

 

[damngrumpy]

SLM you are right there is no one party to satisfy ones needs, the Conservatives south of
the boarder are deeply influenced by the Social Conservative in the north there is influence
but not as strong. The Liberals are a drifting lot they have some idea of things but they
remind me of the Tories in the late eighties and early nineties. The NDP has gone beyond
being a movement they have become a political party sometimes dysfunctional but a party
now i am not opposed to them for being dysfunctional my God look at the Tories and the
Senate scandal. or the Liberals who went through the several leaders routine and settled
for a face over substance.
The NDP has in my view become more to the right but more negative in their attitudes to
progress. Used to be the NDP was on the cutting edge, Pensions, Medicare and family
allowance and so on, Those were achieved through minority governments.
I like the NDP when it has stable leadership. and sometimes the Tories when they are not
catering to the Reform element or the Wildrose nonsense in Alberta.
The Liberals are a collection of what the rest don't want but in a minority they do well.
If an election were held today I would not vote for the Conservatives nor the Greens and so
I have two choices NDP or the Liberals and I am watching closely. The reason the Tories
are out for me is they went to far dismantling the fabric of our programs for people. Treatment
of seniors and Vets and others. Hope that is a little of what you wanted in this topic

 

[gopher]

... I cannot embrace the politics fully and be 'party faithful'.

Yet I see people, both here on the forum and out in the "real world" (so to speak) who do align themselves. But the part that somewhat confounds me is, many of the folks that I see doing this I find to be not so different from myself. At least in the sense that I don't think, at least for how they express themselves or how I've felt I've related to them or them to me, that they really fall so lock-step into the 'party philosophy'. But there still seems to be this penchant to align themselves, either for or against and I just would really like to understand why.

You remind me of what may well be my all time favorite essay by Governor Livingston of New Jersey:


William Livingston, "Of Party Divisions," Independent Reflector (1753)


[SIZE=+1] "Of Party Divisions"[/SIZE]




[SIZE=+1]FROM the Moment that Men give themselves wholly up to a Party, they abandon their [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Reason, [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]and are led Captive by their [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Passions. [/SIZE][SIZE=+1]The Cause they espouse, presents such bewitching Charms, as dazzle the judgment; and the Side they oppose, such imaginary Deformity, that no Opposition appears too violent; nor any Arts to blacken and ruin it, incapable of a specious Varnish. They follow their Leaders with an implicit Faith, and, like a Company of Dragoons, obey the Word of Command without Hesitation. Tho' perhaps they originally embark'd in the Cause with a View to the public Welfare; the calm Deliberations of Reason are imperceptibly fermented into Passion; and their Zeal for the common Good, gradually extinguished by the predominating Fervor of Faction: A disinterested Love for their Country, is succeeded by an intemperate Ardor; which naturally swells into a political Enthusiasm; and from that, easy is the Transition to perfect Frenzy. As the religious Enthusiast fathers the wild Ravings of his heated Imagination, on the Spirit of God; and is ready to knock down every Man who doubts his divine Inspiration; so the political Visionary miscalls his Party-Rage the Perfection of Patriotism; and curses the rational Lover of his Country, for his unseasonable Tepidity. The former may be reduced to his Senses, by shaving, purging, and letting of Blood; as the latter is only to be reclaim'd by Time or Preferment ....[/SIZE]








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[SIZE=+1]As I've mentioned on this forum before, right wingers call me "liberal", left wingers call me "conservative". At times I have been condemned as an extremist by both sides. That is what I was banned by the liberal Democratic Underground and by the conservative Belief Net and Real Cities. Small wonder why I steer my own course and do not succumb to partisan ideology. [/SIZE][SIZE=+1][SIZE=+1] No one party has all the answers to society's problems. [/SIZE]People need to learn to think for themselves and avoid or limit the undue influence exerted by partisanship.
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[BaalsTears]

...
I agree polarization is heavy in American politics, more so than anywhere else it seems. The thing is though that it's not just American's that are polarized about American politics, it seems like everyone else is to. Which is an odd thing when you stop and thing about it. Almost like it's contagious or something.
...

Polarization is contagious. I've told many Canadians that they need to diversify their foreign relationships, and avoid drawing closer to the US. Getting closer won't turn out well.