Don't Blame Ontario!!

[Isengard]

So why don't we split it all, BC with Alberta, saskatchewan with Manitoba, Ontario with Québec, N-F N-B N-S and P-E-I together...

Oh yeah, both territories can become one!

So, is it ok for everybody? This country wasn't meant to stick together from the beginning anyway!!

So, who's with me? :lol:

 

[bevvyd]

That's the team spirit :lol:

 

[Numure]

So why don't we split it all, BC with Alberta, saskatchewan with Manitoba, Ontario with Québec, N-F N-B N-S and P-E-I together...

Oh yeah, both territories can become one!

So, is it ok for everybody? This country wasn't meant to stick together from the beginning anyway!!

So, who's with me? :lol:

Québec can do it on its own.

 

[bevvyd]

Nope Quebec get New Brunswick, its a pairs thing.

 

[crash]

Gee sorry about that Crash,

I guess the momentum hasn't reached BC yet. I'll get back to ya when it does.

Depends on who you talk to i guess

 

[crash]

"Western" separation is all BS anyway, the greater Vancouver area would never be part of such a scheme.

 

[bevvyd]

Why wouldn't we be? I know many many people who would love to seperate, and like me, they are all from Vancouver or surrounding areas.

As you are from Nova Scotia, how would you know? Got a friend or two out here?

 

[Reverend Blair]

I know a lot of people from BC and Alberta and Separatism won't fly. It does not have the support. If the separtists weren't so far to the right, it might stand a chance.

They are far to the right though, as far as Stephen Harper and more. Especially on social issues. Harper's neo-conservatism and refusal to rein in the religious right in his party caused him to get less than 50% of the popular vote in BC and Alberta in an election where the general population was pissed off at the federal Liberals. He lost ground compared to the combined Alliance/PC vote the election before.

If people are afraid to vote for Harper because he is too conservative how are you going to convince them to support a group that stands even further to the right and would likely wield even more power than our present federal government.

As far as when western separatism started...it's always been there. There have been some who wanted their own country and others who wanted to join the US for as long as there have been white people in the region. The modern version of the movement really took off after Trudeau's National Energy Program.

What I always wonder is if BC and Alberta did manage to separate, would they come crawling back when the oil money went away. I'll bet they would.

 

[bevvyd]

Harper lost our west and in alot of other places because of his hidden agenda that got leaked to the news. The Consevatives had plans to use the "notwithstanding" clause, as well as rewrite the constitution, as well as denying a woman's right for an abortion. Yeah everyone was ticked with the Liberals for all the lying and scamming that they got caught in.

I do find it ironic that you seem to be of the opinion that all of BC wanted Stephen Harper in. You can speak for yourself and/or your friends, but not me or my friends. But before this turns even more to the 'right', let's just keep our, as in yours and mine, opinions in discussion and not others.

Will seperation fly? Maybe maybe not, time will tell.

 

[Numure]

As of now, it doesnt have any support. Actually, last I checked, its support was at 10%. Not concrete enough.

 

[venomous1]

Just Keep in Mind that Separation may mean you end up becoming an American... remember.. Manifest Destiny!

Americans would love to get their hands on the Wests Natural Resources... and the Americans would eat up the resources to no end... Until there is nothing left.


It is sad that a government that is suppose to represent a whole country is blowing it for our country...

Just keep in Mind that the Citizens of Ontario do sympathize with the Western Provinces... We pay quite a bit of taxes as well and it seems to go to support the poorer or greedier provinces.... and we see very little in return for our hard earned money...

The Western provinces should be Canada's pride and if anybody has a distinct society ... it is the west... where they fend for themselves and live on their own resources... and for the most part have decent moral values.... I have never had the pleasure of visiting ...but many Ontarions come back raving about the Western Provinces.

 

[Numure]

Americans would love to get their hands on the Wests Natural Resources... and the Americans would eat up the resources to no end... Until there is nothing left.

Nothing different then how it is now. Alberta hasnt Nationalised their oil ressources, so it belongs completly to American corporations. They are eating it up, and won't stop till nothing is left.

 

[venomous1]

Really? I did not know that... that is sad... Your own provincial government is selling out your childrens' futures!

 

[Numure]

Really? I did not know that... that is sad... Your own provincial government is selling out your childrens' futures!

I'm from Québec, not Alberta.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Bev said,

do find it ironic that you seem to be of the opinion that all of BC wanted Stephen Harper in.

Apparently in response to me saying,

Harper's neo-conservatism and refusal to rein in the religious right in his party caused him to get less than 50% of the popular vote in BC and Alberta in

Now I know I've had almost five beer since I got home at 4:15 (it's 11:02 here now, according to my computer), but I'm kind of wondering if these arent very special beer...

I would put soft Western separatism at 15% in Alberta, 10% in BC and Saskatchewan, and about 2% here in Manitoba. Hard would cut the numbers at least in half. I have yet to meet a western separtist (hard or soft) who could even be vaguely considered a moderate. That's mot a scientific poll or anything, just a judgement based on what people have said.

 

[Numure]

Bev said,

do find it ironic that you seem to be of the opinion that all of BC wanted Stephen Harper in.

Apparently in response to me saying,

Harper's neo-conservatism and refusal to rein in the religious right in his party caused him to get less than 50% of the popular vote in BC and Alberta in

Now I know I've had almost five beer since I got home at 4:15 (it's 11:02 here now, according to my computer), but I'm kind of wondering if these arent very special beer...

I would put soft Western separatism at 15% in Alberta, 10% in BC and Saskatchewan, and about 2% here in Manitoba. Hard would cut the numbers at least in half. I have yet to meet a western separtist (hard or soft) who could even be vaguely considered a moderate. That's mot a scientific poll or anything, just a judgement based on what people have said.

I'm quite sure, does people are/we're the ones yelling out nhever to negotiate with Québec seperatist. Even though our movement, has always had between 40-50% support.

 

[crash]

I know a lot of people from BC and Alberta and Separatism won't fly. It does not have the support. If the separtists weren't so far to the right, it might stand a chance.

They are far to the right though, as far as Stephen Harper and more. Especially on social issues. Harper's neo-conservatism and refusal to rein in the religious right in his party caused him to get less than 50% of the popular vote in BC and Alberta in an election where the general population was pissed off at the federal Liberals. He lost ground compared to the combined Alliance/PC vote the election before.

I agree with the first part of your statement, there is no way that the west will leave in my life time. That is all things being equal barring some type of crisis or event of monumental proportions. Like it or lump in virtually everywhere in BC but the GVA and in Alberta the predominant political culture is a clearly right wing conservatism. This predominant conservatism is fruther to the right than your typical canadian brand.

Its not like that in Manitoba and its not like that in Ontario but it is like that there....One need only look at the rightist monopoly in Alberta throughout its entire history and the extremely polar nature of BC politics to see this. Alberta especially, and BC to a lesser degree feels as if they have been getting the shaft from central Canada and both were traditionally "have" provinces (though BC not so much). They send money east and get no respect back either for their predominant beliefs or their regional concerns, and with Trudeau they felt as if they had a genuine enemy.

I would be surprised since you are clearly on the left had you not yourself reffered to Albertans in general terms as "rednecks" or "hicks". If you haven't you are about the only one I know.

I disagree with your reasoning to why you think that that separatism will not fly in the west because it has taken on a right wing nature. While your assessment is absolutely correct in a lot of the overall picture across the country...


Lets put things in perspective here:

#1 You're wrong. The conservatives numbers were impressive as always in Alberta (well above 50%), the liberals didn't get this type of support anywhere in Canada.

In BC the results were not as impressive, but I would have liked to have seen a breakdown of results outside of greater Vancouver. Suffice it to say that in a quick assessment I have not seen a single conservative seat in greater Vancouver and definately none in Vancouver proper (conservatives were often 3rd place and never got more than 26% of the popular vote an any riding) :

ALBERTA

CON 26 783929 61.64%
LIB 2 279562 21.98%
NDP 0 121361 9.54%


BRITISH COLUMBIA

CON 22 626034 36.25%
LIB 8 493356 28.57%
NDP 5 458377 26.54%
NA 1 17174 0.99%


#2 Social conservatives in this region vote massively for the Liberals as well, if a Liberal is not a social conservative in said region (which they often are) they often waffle massively (even by liberal standards) on social issues.
#3 The west is ALWAYS pissed off at the liberals, this particular Liberal PM has been notoriously associated with the right of center and more "west friendly". I would say the west was actually less pissed off at the libs than usual while in Quebec and Ontario this was not the case.
#4 The Conservative party dispite having a western leader is not a separatist party. Also, this is no longer viewed by the west as a regional party as much as the federal liberals eastern canadians would like to think/suggest, a comparison of western separatist sentiment is doomed to fail looking at it in those terms.

I would submit that any western separatist movement would have to take on a very right wing face to have any chance of suceeding. Like I mentioned in a past post, western separatism is useless to talk about anyway because of the polar differences betwen greater Vancouver and the rest of BC.

 

[crash]

Why wouldn't we be? I know many many people who would love to seperate, and like me, they are all from Vancouver or surrounding areas.

As you are from Nova Scotia, how would you know? Got a friend or two out here?

The worst mistake I ever made on this board was to say where I was from. I don't like to put to fine a point on it, and its not meant to be condscending, but i find facing such questions I have no other recourse. I am a political science major, for practically 4 years of my life I concentrated almost exclusively on the ins and outs of Canadian politics, this includes region disparity which is a key part of our political culture. A carpenter knows carpentry and a political scientist knows politics.....

Did you know the first separatist party in Canada was formed the day after confederation in Nova Scotia? That has nothing to do with the topic at hand but ironic to note in any case.

At any rate, as to your question. I would never be so bold as to say that the 5 people I know from BC and 3 from Vancouver are an accurate sample of separatist sentiment in the province. So yes I have "a friend or two out there" but its not the basis of my arguement.

The reason why greater Vancouver stands no chance of ever being involved in a "western" separatist movement is because to command a movement strong enough to separate they need something to be mad about enough to want to and persuasive to get their neighbor to.

BC most certainly does not have the best deal in confederation but as far as the equalization formula is concerned they hardly any longer a "have" province. They don't even have the traditional arguement to cling to that BC does all the financial leg work and gets nothing in return, they no really a supporter and are barely a dependant. There is no "smoking gun" as they say to make British Columbians to be compelled in massive numbers (60% + 1 as per the clarity act but certainly not even 50% +1) to separate.

Alberta has a stronger case because traditionnally they have been affected more by "western alienation" and have as a province a predominant political culture that is different in the west of Canada and they are a massive benefactor to the equalization program while many feel they get squat in return. In Quebec it goes even deeper to an general cultural, national and marginalization grievance. Even in these places, THEY have not separated....and in the case of Alberta most assuredly are a long way off from even forwarding a capable separatist moverment...but I digress....

In a separatist party you have a rejection of the party of power, because they represent what you do not like (Canada). In Vancouver there is no rejection of the party of power. Vancouver routinely elects Liberals, along with the NDP it is the strongest party there.

Secondly in western separatism you have a right wing dominance. This is one of the main beefs of western separtism that easterners don't understand their predominant political culture and vice versa. In non-GVA BC you have this same type of grieveances as as Alberta. There is a predominant political culture that is different than eastern Canada.

However, in Vancouver there is no such grieveance. Vancouver is very much on the same page as any central Canadian city and the predominat political culture maybe has even more socialist than any other city in the country.

Why would greater Vancouverites who have been at odds with the rest of BC in an extremely black and white way suddenly join on the bandwagon with them and leave a country that has an overall ideal that has far more in common with them.

Doesn't make sense.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Okay, let's start out with a few basics. I don't call them rednecks too often because I know them. I'm one of them. There's this odd phenomenon in Saskatchewan (and Alberta and BC and Manitoba) that produces leftist rednecks. Don't mess around with us, we have pick-up trucks and pictures of Tommy Douglas on our walls. Callussed hands, that hard stare that comes with hard labour, and an ability to drink beer all night with anybody willing to give it a shot.

They are rednecks and hicks. So am I. We're fun to drink beer with, but it's best you practice ducking...things get a little heated at times.

If you need an outside reference have a look at Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings before he quit dope and decided to suck, Johnny Cash, Kris Kristoferson, John Lennon, Ray Davies, Bob Dylan. The Band, etc.

If you want an inside reference just have a look at the history of the CCF/NDP, the Wheat Pool, the Co-op, or a dozen other prairie traditions. Better yet, have a look at who backed Cargill in the BSE/meat-packing debacle. It wasn't the NDP, my friend...leftists put people before corporations.

Right wing conservatism is also prominent in Manitoba and a constant threat in Saskatchewan. That's how I learned to take (and throw) a punch. Beer parlour politics are very instructive.

I spent a lot of time in Alberta as a wee lad too. It's a right of passage in Saskatchewan...you either move west for work or go visit your buddies who moved west for work.

I said Alberta and BC, not just Alberta. Check the numbers, they lost the popular vote. While you're at it check the eligible voters in Alberta. Most who could have voted for the Conservatives didn't...many just didn't vote.

I'm pissed off at the Liberals too. They are far too conservative, especially under Martin, for anybody who believes in human rights taking precedence over money or nationalism to support. The Liberals play both ends against the middle and win every time.

The Conservative party may not be a separatist party, but they are one prone to promoting regionalization. It was Stephie who wanted to build the firewall around Alberta, rememeber? Jack Layton never suggested doing that around Alberta and Paul Martin never suggested it about Ontario or Quebec.

As long as Stephen Harper is leading the Conservatives, as long as they will not dispossess themselves from being the Republican North Party, they will niot be electable. They managed less than 100 seats when the entire country was pissed off at the Liberals. As the only party that's considered a viable alternative, that really sucks.

 

[crash]

Okay, let's start out with a few basics. I don't call them rednecks too often because I know them. I'm one of them.

Fair enough.

I said Alberta and BC, not just Alberta. Check the numbers, they lost the popular vote. They Lost the popular vote.

They most certainly did not lose the popular vote. They didn't get 50% + 1 together but they won the popular vote easily. Especially when ideologically speaking a considerable amount of the liberal vote was for hardcore social conservatives which was what I was saying. This was not the only region that this was the case.

This is of course notwithstanding that easily 50% + 1 of non GVA - BC and Alberta voted conservative. This is consistent with past posts I have made even when not addressing you. Vancouver is a different story.....

Which again is why I said "western" separation is a dream.

While you're at it check the eligible voters in Alberta. Most who could have voted for the Conservatives didn't...many just didn't vote.

Irrelevent, we are not talking about non-conervative pie in the sky, intangible numbers. We are talking about those who participate in democracy.

You could claim, they were all lefties who were disaffected with government i could say they were all complacent righties who were just as disaffected with government.

Neither of us could weigh the possible results. Liberals have been elected federally with well under 50% of the national popular vote for ages. ts a fact of Canadian politics, I CERTAINLY dont like it and I guess you don't either and thats all we have proven. A separatist referedum anywhere wouldn't give a shit about who didn't vote so for argumentative purposes neither would we. Most certainly those non voters are important but they cross the political spectrum.

I'm pissed off at the Liberals too. They are far too conservative, especially under Martin, for anybody who believes in human rights taking precedence over money or nationalism to support. The Liberals play both ends against the middle and win every time.

Right which is why they sold so well, even in hard times for the liberal party to the predominantly rightist Alberta and non GVA - BC.

The Conservative party may not be a separatist party, but they are one prone to promoting regionalization. It was Stephie who wanted to build the firewall around Alberta, rememeber? Jack Layton never suggested doing that around Alberta and Paul Martin never suggested it about Ontario or Quebec.

As long as Stephen Harper is leading the Conservatives, as long as they will not dispossess themselves from being the Republican North Party, they will niot be electable. They managed less than 100 seats when the entire country was pissed off at the Liberals. As the only party that's considered a viable alternative, that really sucks.

Hehe, I like how we have gone from a discussion on western separation to a conversation about Stephen Harper and the conservative party nationally. Yes, Yes I know that you are a lefty, and I am not. Its irrelevent and I thought we left it at the door about a discussion that doesn't have anything to do with it. We are talking about a small region of the country.

As far as your relevent commentary, the Conservative party itself has not promoted regionalization. The Conservative party more properly promotes decentralization of government power to the provinces, as has the PC governments, oppositions before it.

This is a concept that is popular in the west, then again it is also popular in other parts of the country too.

Among conservatives it is a popular concept everywhere.

At the end of the day the conservative party is most certainly not a separatist party.