Does morality even matter in secular education?

AnnaG

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Jul 5, 2009
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if a self-professed atheist has morals, then he has religion, ipso-facto.
Wrong.Atheists usually rely on personal preference rather than external influences. My hubby is atheist. If he feels bad about harm coming to people, you can be pretty certain that he won't allow harm to anyone if it is within his power.
Loooooong before religions popped out of the screwy parts of human minds, there were actually good people wandering around.
Of course if you define morality as being the edicts of religions relating to behavior, then you are right. In that case, people like my hubby are likely more highly principled than most religious are moral.
 

AnnaG

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We have two daughters. They are agnostics like I am. If they believe gods are indifferent towards humanity and do not wish us to know about them, then why would my kids and I be concerned with morality and act morally? The answer is because we care about life and living things. We have no need of religions telling us that.
 

Bar Sinister

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Jan 17, 2010
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Posters in the classroom are not there to endorse any particular philosophy or lifestyle; they are there either for decoration or to help students remember a point. I admit there might the the occasional politically charged message encouraging students to treat one another like decent human beings, but most are innocent enough. I do remember one parent (I never learned who he was as he was too gutless to identify himself to the principal when he phoned in his complaint) who was concerned over the picture of Hitler I had at the back of the room. It was a completely moronic objection considering that I taught 20th century history and made even less intelligent by the fact that the poster in question was not of Hitler, but of World War I Field Marshall Horatio Kitchener.

Led Zepplin? No big deal. The Sex Pistols on the other hand....
 

SirJosephPorter

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Nov 7, 2008
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What are your thoughts on this action by the Surrey School District (and subsequent inaction on their part, and on the part of the BC Ministry of Education) with regards to potential implied drug endorsement in the name of 6-12 year olds learning music?

Read about it here: Letter to Yet Another Principle-Free Canadian Politician

Regards.

Is this the poster they have hanging in the elementary school?



At least that is the impression I got by reading the letter. If they have this poster hanging in elementary school, it is just plain wrong. It gives the message that smoking is cool. That can pervert the impressionable minds of elementary school children.

If they want to put up a poster of Led Zeppelin (without any smoking involved), I don't have a problem with that. However, I am opposed to anything that may encourage chlidren to smoke, and this poster does it in a big way.
 

taxslave

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Nov 25, 2008
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We have two daughters. They are agnostics like I am. If they believe gods are indifferent towards humanity and do not wish us to know about them, then why would my kids and I be concerned with morality and act morally? The answer is because we care about life and living things. We have no need of religions telling us that.

Good one. If religious fanatics have the market on morality cornered why is it that so many of their leaders commit so many immoral acts like kid diddling and murdering anyone who disagrees with them?
Makes us nonbelievers look positively saintly.
 

YukonJack

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Dec 26, 2008
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"Good one. If religious fanatics have the market on morality cornered why is it that so many of their leaders commit so many immoral acts like kid diddling and murdering anyone who disagrees with them?
Makes us nonbelievers look positively saintly."

Sadly, immoral acts like kid diddling and murdering anyone who disagrees with them is not the sole domain of people of faith.

Once you prove that all those immoral acts are committed by other than 'non-believers', you can call yourself saintly.
 

AnnaG

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spin

TS didn't say that it was the sole domain of the faithful nor did he say anyone was a saint.
 

selin

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Feb 8, 2010
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"In my thoughts I have seen
Rings of smoke through the trees
And the voices of those
Who stand looking " hııım , maybe , that causes the poor children to smoke or;

"Your head is humming and it won't go
In case you don't know
The piper's calling you to join him " that can also cause the children to drink...


she/he should be troll ,but the article is beyond the troll.
Led Zeppelin is one of the great rock musician ever, and nobody who loves him uses drugs or uses drugs because of him . most of his fans like his songs not his secret messages for drugs (!) smart ass claim .i think those like to kill the enthusiasm of such teachers by their simple comments.

"And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold
And if you listen very hard
The truth will come to you at last
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll( be troll) "
 

Downhome_Woman

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Dec 2, 2008
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What are your thoughts on this action by the Surrey School District (and subsequent inaction on their part, and on the part of the BC Ministry of Education) with regards to potential implied drug endorsement in the name of 6-12 year olds learning music?

Read about it here: Letter to Yet Another Principle-Free Canadian Politician

Regards.
It was a poster for Pete's sake - a POSTER! And sorry - they were a great band - I listened to them when I was in my earliest teens (I was 12 whe they started so do the math). I pretty much figured that they were into the whole sex/drugs/rock'n roll thing - because well, they were rock superstars. Did I go down that road? No. Did I want to? No. Did I love their music? AWESOME! Black Mountain Side? If anything could warm the cockles of a 14 year old's heart - it did.If you want pictures on your walls of the creative arts classes, of artists that never struggled, never went over the wire? Sorry. You're going to be stuck with velvet paintings of Elvis (OOPS - SORRY! He was a drug abuser who was - well - weird)
Face it. Music is art and art is contentious - if only for the fact that there cannot be a definitive definition of what art is.
My solution to you? If you don't want a poster of Led Zepplin in the music room of your child's school? Remove your children and find a place that doesn't educate - just instructs.
By its very nature, 'education' should be disruptive - it should offer alternatives to what is regularly thought.
By the way, I think you vastly underestimate the ability of a young child to understand the ups and downs of not only Led Zepplin but many other people in the arts. If it is explained in an appropriate way - they'll understand.
 

Downhome_Woman

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Dec 2, 2008
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"In my thoughts I have seen
Rings of smoke through the trees
And the voices of those
Who stand looking " hııım , maybe , that causes the poor children to smoke or;

"Your head is humming and it won't go
In case you don't know
The piper's calling you to join him " that can also cause the children to drink...


she/he should be troll ,but the article is beyond the troll.
Led Zeppelin is one of the great rock musician ever, and nobody who loves him uses drugs or uses drugs because of him . most of his fans like his songs not his secret messages for drugs (!) smart ass claim .i think those like to kill the enthusiasm of such teachers by their simple comments.

"And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold
And if you listen very hard
The truth will come to you at last
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll( be troll) "
Oh Selin,
You know, I never listened to the words of their music - I just liked their music - the totality of it.I LOVED the liner art - Led Zeplin and 'Yes" had the best covers and liner art.Oh, in the days of my youth ... :)
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
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Led Zeppelin is one of the great rock musician ever, and nobody who loves him uses drugs or uses drugs because of him . most of his fans like his songs not his secret messages for drugs (!) smart ass claim .i think those like to kill the enthusiasm of such teachers by their simple comments.

He may be a great rock musician, I don't know (though someone who does not care for rock music will hardly consider it a great achievement). The problem is the poster which shows him smoking.

When you show such a poster to elementary school children, you are simply asking for trouble. If the teacher is such a great fan of Zeppelin, let him put up a poster of him, without showing him smoking. But to show a poster of a prominent personality smoking, to elementary school kids is nothing short of criminal.
 

lone wolf

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Nov 25, 2006
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Which poster shows "him" smoking?

FYI Led Zepplin is a band ... and the conclusion to which you have drawn from the OP's link is "he" and the Marlboro Man are one and the same.

Here is Wayne McLaren in late life:

 
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gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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He may be a great rock musician, I don't know (though someone who does not care for rock music will hardly consider it a great achievement). The problem is the poster which shows him smoking.

When you show such a poster to elementary school children, you are simply asking for trouble. If the teacher is such a great fan of Zeppelin, let him put up a poster of him, without showing him smoking. But to show a poster of a prominent personality smoking, to elementary school kids is nothing short of criminal.


This whole post just shows how much of a brain dead moron you truly are.
 

TenPenny

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Jun 9, 2004
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There seem to be several people unclear on the concept here.

Led Zepplin is not a 'he', it is a band.
The Marlboro Man poster has nothing to do with Led Zepplin.

Reading comprehension is not some people's strong suit.
 
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selin

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There seem to be several people unclear on the concept here.

Led Zepplin is not a 'he', it is a band.
The Marlboro Man poster has nothing to do with Led Zepplin.

Reading comprehension is not some people's strong suit.
:thumbleft:
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
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Morality/Religion

I think these two overlap in many ways and secular education can offer studies for those children who with to select the options (or families who wish their children to take part) - the same as some people opt for art, or music, or school teams....

Now don't get huffy - religion and morality are of vital importance in our world which seems to be fracturing against traditional beliefs, while people prefer their children not be school in any one particular religion unless it is their own belief....

I would rather see the public education system attempt to expand enough to include as many variations on themes such as religion studies, independent morality and humanistic issues, even necessary legal issues which most people are going to be able to allow their children to partake in at least some of these.

As long as the basics of education (reading comprehension, writing skills, history, mathematical and scientific studies) to give a good basic in life survival, and let the students have some say in how they want to round out their first years in school as well as the extras such as teams or music/drama, etc.

If a school offered a menu of choices and mandated programs including extra course times.....then the students would have an opportunity to review at home with parental guidance.

I think religion can have a place in history and literature, but religious studies of particular faiths should be ex-parte from regular school work unless the school itself is a religiously based one - not of the general educational system.

It is important to discuss societal "right and wrong" issues, but these can be done without necessarily bringing specific religious belief into a generalized discussion.
 

Downhome_Woman

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Dec 2, 2008
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What are your thoughts on this action by the Surrey School District (and subsequent inaction on their part, and on the part of the BC Ministry of Education) with regards to potential implied drug endorsement in the name of 6-12 year olds learning music?

Read about it here: Letter to Yet Another Principle-Free Canadian Politician

Regards.

Your remarks in your letter, "God help us if one of our children browses the Led Zeppelin CD section in Wal-mart or HMV– they might stumble upon the oft-banned child-porn Egyptian-god-worshiping album cover "just reveal your ignorance regarding this album in particular. Funny, but when I first saw it I never saw it as 'child porn, and I never saw in it any reference to 'Egyptian God Worshiping' either. Guess it takes a mind full of filth to see filth where there is none. For your own edification (if you're going to hate something, you should really have some knowledge about what you are hating), I lifted information regarding the album art for the "Houses of the Holy' album.

The cover art for Houses of the Holy was inspired by the ending of Arthur C. Clarke's novel Childhood's End.[1] (The ending involves several hundred million naked children, only slightly and physically resembling the human race in basic forms.) It is a collage of several photographs which were taken at the Giant's Causeway, Northern Ireland, by Aubrey Powell of Hipgnosis. This location was chosen ahead of an alternative one in Peru which was being considered.[1]
 

Downhome_Woman

Electoral Member
Dec 2, 2008
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He may be a great rock musician, I don't know (though someone who does not care for rock music will hardly consider it a great achievement). The problem is the poster which shows him smoking.

When you show such a poster to elementary school children, you are simply asking for trouble. If the teacher is such a great fan of Zeppelin, let him put up a poster of him, without showing him smoking. But to show a poster of a prominent personality smoking, to elementary school kids is nothing short of criminal.
You know something? I'm not a fan of Gilbert and Sullivan, but I can recognize their talent - you don't have to care for this type of music to recognize the skill. jimmy Page - monumental talent.
As far as the poster? No one here knows what it was! The only images 'Adopted has shown were a poster of the Marleboro Man, and one of the Houses of the Holy' album!!! As far as having a poster of a rock star smoking hanging in a music room? what a great way to open a conversation as to the dangers of smoking and doing drugs!
 

L Gilbert

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What are your thoughts on this action by the Surrey School District (and subsequent inaction on their part, and on the part of the BC Ministry of Education) with regards to potential implied drug endorsement in the name of 6-12 year olds learning music?

Read about it here: Letter to Yet Another Principle-Free Canadian Politician

Regards.
Looks to me like someone's attempt to force their own code of principles or morals upon others in the name of religion.
The poster of Led Zeppelin was likely put there as a bit of art designed to indicate the quality of the band's music.
Someone of this poster's ilk would think nothing of posting a concert featuring the music of W A Mozart, yet Mozart used medicants to combat his fatigue.
There were many other artists that also used drugs to combat everything from boredom to disease as well as to stimulate artistic production.
This is no reason to disallow the enjoyment of the works themselves. Get a grip.