Death knell for AGW

[Praxius]

What I am saying, is that global warming is occurring. There can be no argument about that. The evidence is everywhere.
CO2 isn't the only greenhouse gas that could be causing it. Methane is ten times worse but thankfully there isn't as much of it yet.
If you can't see that global warming is happening, then maybe you shouldn't be arguing on the subject.

Oh now there's some great logic.... If I believed it was happening, then there'd be nothing to argue now would there? :roll:

Global Warming is not happening..... if anything is happening, it's Climate Change.... Not GW. And we can not stop Climate Change no matter what we do..... sorry, we're not Gods just yet.

And if you can't understand the logic and outright refuse to look into Ice Core Data and looking at what has occured in Earth's history for hundreds of thousands of years, then your ignoring logical and factual data and evidence, and thus, you shouldn't be in the place to dictate what is true and what is not in the first place.

 

[#juan]

Thousands of scientists would disagree with you. What are your qualifications Praxius? I'm just a lowly mechanical engineer and have no meteorological training but what I can see is that since the industrial revolution we have had real measurements not estimates based on pollen in the air trapped in an ice core or something. Those kinds of estimates are great if you have nothing else
There is bare ground in the Arctic that hasn't been bare in thousands of years.

That the Earth is warming up is a proven fact. You want to say it is a normal thing. I don't believe it. As far as we can tell, the Sun isn't putting out more heat so why is the Earth warming up? The gradual rise in global temperatures over the last three hundred years is not part of any cycle that I know of.

 

[Praxius]

Thousands of scientists would disagree with you.

And many thousands of scientists would disagree with you as well, them's the breaks.

What are your qualifications Praxius? I'm just a lowly mechanical engineer and have no meteorological training but what I can see is that since the industrial revolution we have had real measurements not estimates based on pollen in the air trapped in an ice core or something.

Or something? Look it up, don't just assume... cripes.

Those kinds of estimates are great if you have nothing else
There is bare ground in the Arctic that hasn't been bare in thousands of years.

That the Earth is warming up is a proven fact.

I already know that's a proven fact... the question that remains is Why? And that's the key right there... unless you know why, you won't have a solution.

You want to say it is a normal thing. I don't believe it. As far as we can tell, the Sun isn't putting out more heat so why is the Earth warming up? The gradual rise in global temperatures over the last three hundred years is not part of any cycle that I know of.

Of course you don't know of it, because you avoid the information when it's shoved right in front of your face and ignore it.

My qualifications are related to my direct study on the environment for as long as I can remember.... I have read it all, I have seen it all (Reports that is) and I have reviewed all of the information on all the sides of the argument..... hell, I even acknowleged and read what you supplied here, even though I already read it before.....

..... but what did you do? You ask "Why should I bother to look into it?" ~ Which is the exact same response I had in another thread in regards to Hurricane's effects on the environment..... You already expressed a mentality that you can't be bothered to look into different information, therefore you already lost the argument with your closed mind.

You , just like many others in here, didn't even bother to respond to what was provided, so what's the point in debating the topic with you?

Wasting my time.... moving on.

 

[#juan]

Wasting my time.... moving on.

Good plan. The subject was beyond you.

 

[Scott Free]

What I am saying, is that global warming is occurring. There can be no argument about that. The evidence is everywhere.

Everywhere including other planets! :roll:

Seriously, GW is obviously horse $h!t.

 

[#juan]

Everywhere including other planets! :roll:

Seriously, GW is obviously horse $h!t.

Seriously, you don't know what you are talking about........or you are blind, or stupid.....or both.

 

[Praxius]

Seriously, you don't know what you are talking about........or you are blind, or stupid.....or both.

Here... allow me to explain it in Pre-School format for you:

See those big colorful lines up there in those boring pictures you didn't bother to look at?

Do you see how they look like one of those Real fun roller coasters, up and down and up and down..... WEEEEEEEEE.... Go Weeee for me..... WEEEEEEEEEEE.... that's it, very good. Here's a cookie.

Now, we know from school that the planet revolves around the sun in a big giant galaxy waaaayyyy up there where the stars are?

Well the entire solar system and the sun itself isn't exactly moving in a perfect circle... gosh darn.. but don't be sad.... :smile:

See, every so often, the planet we live on.... That's Earth, can you say Earth? Very good.... finish your other cookie before I give you another one. Oh gosh, you got it all over your face, here let me get that for you, you messy little piggy *licks thumb with some big saliva* here, let me wipe that off..... there we go.

Ok, so all the planets that live with our Earth, well they're all shifting along with us towards the sun.... sorta like your marbles when they're on your blanky and you lift it up and down.

Well they all start cooking up like hot dogs on an open fire, but then they shift back away...... much more so then just our seasonal changes. These are slower ones, which only make us move a little bit.

So you see little Juan, there is a normal and logical explination for why this is happening, and why it has occured before, and will do so again, because the fact explain it as above, with all your favorite scientific super heros like Captain Planet.

Remember him, gosh he was a swell fellow.... golly gee wiz.

And even when all the quations are answered, and when you have more long term evidence of the bigger picture, not just the small little 100 or so year picture.... two totally different stories meh dear.

It's Climate Change, not Global Warming..... It's a natural cycle that the earth and all the other planets, and all the other places beyond do to survive or die.

Do you seriously think the Earth stays in a perfect orbit around the Sun and the Sun doesn't have it's own orbit in which disturbs our overall long term orbit? You have to think further in time then just a couple of centuries to understand what I'm trying to explain to you. Then again come back to me when you reach somewhere around the IQ of 160 or greater please.

Thank you, come again.

Added:

Oh and my gf also had a good point in the background, lol... the moon changes our tides, which would be the same as the sun's shifts changing us overall.

Through a long period of time, the sun will shift, and all the planets will lose space in their overall orbit, therefore cool. However then it shifts again, and then the planets come back closer and heat back up. If the planets didn't do this, they would either continue falling further away, or they'd go closer into the sun and in either case, we'd all die.

This is how the planets do what they do.

 

[Zzarchov]

Seriously, it doesn't matter if this has happened before.

The problem isn't that the earth can't handle global warming, the earth will be fine. The earth was once so full or carbon and heat that Dinosaurs roamed the earth.

The problem is that our civilization can't handle massive shocks. Our infrastructure simply will not sustain it.

Leaving us the massive undertaking of making new infrastructure, or the cheaper solution of stopping warming.

Most of the world can't have a freak snowstorm without massive deathtolls. One bad harvest (or turning a slight amount of food to biofuel) and all of a sudden the world teeters on the verge of starvation.

What do you think happens when the climate shifts massively? Nature will be fine, animals and plants will shift around (having little needed to pack up and move), humanity is the one with the problem.

We need alot of infrastructure to exist.

 

[Praxius]

Seriously, it doesn't matter if this has happened before.

The problem isn't that the earth can't handle global warming, the earth will be fine. The earth was once so full or carbon and heat that Dinosaurs roamed the earth.

The problem is that our civilization can't handle massive shocks. Our infrastructure simply will not sustain it.

Leaving us the massive undertaking of making new infrastructure, or the cheaper solution of stopping warming.

Most of the world can't have a freak snowstorm without massive deathtolls. One bad harvest (or turning a slight amount of food to biofuel) and all of a sudden the world teeters on the verge of starvation.

Well boo friggin whoo to them... should have thought about that earlier.... and if I could figure this out before I hit high school, what the hell is the problem with the rest of you?

Cripes..... nobody ever take their own responsibility for anything anymore..... Teach people how to live and survive! Stop handing out food and money to everybody all the damn time, they never learn anything, and then they have more kids, then more people want more food and more money.... where's the solution people?

Taxing the hell out of people isn't going to solve anything, and if you want your energy saving vehicles, then all the power to you, I'll probably buy one too someday.

But the Global Warming Bull Sh*t has to stop. Get it straight, stop lying to people about the facts, and you'll have less people resisting and more people thinking of solutions.

You don't win people over by trying to scare them or lie to them, that's just common sense.

What do you think happens when the climate shifts massively? Nature will be fine, animals and plants will shift around (having little needed to pack up and move), humanity is the one with the problem.

We need alot of infrastructure to exist.

Well That's certainly not my problem.... There's not a single thing you can do about what's about to happen.... not unless you want to launch a bunch of nukes and char the atmosphere and kill us all out of some mad greed, the only other thing to do is to train, teach and apply survival..... Human Survival.

Like I said, I've been following this sine I was a kid, and if you guys wanted to try and make an environmental difference, you all should have done it 20 years ago.... it's far far too late to do anything about it now.

Trying to fix the pollution right away isn't going to work and it's too late. You have to address the human issues right now, and through that, the pollution will disipate equally through the shift. Solve the problems of the poor and hungry by teaching them and giving them jobs like most are currently doing. Make countries more independant from each other for resources, including the US, Canada and Mexico. Make sure each country has enough people employed, paid well, and working internal supplies and resources, like the automobile industry, lumber and housing, commercial and retail, food, it was all independant, minus usual trade of specialty itens, etc.....

Then when you have each country independant, feeding and housing their own kind, when emergeny happens, there will be even more countries and communities able to help, not just three or four of the most rich.... the resources would be more balanced out, rather then poor in one area and rich in another, constantly feeding the poor over there, while their own neighbors have no food, educated, but no job.... while the other had no education and no job, and no way of getting either.

People need to get their perspectives straight. The climate is going to change regardless of what we do....

..... and it's not what you think it's going to be. Everybody is freaking about it getting hotter, people are losing crops, and the ice caps are melting. Well in reality, if anything is going to happen, the earth is well over due for another Ice Age by the way it looks.....

Like a big wave, we went up.... now we're about to go down.... button up.

 

[Zzarchov]

Regardless of what the problem is or when it should have been fixed, its easier to fix than to deal with.

While you no doubt do not like the results of being forced to help clean up the mess of others, thats the way society works.

Mob rule. After all, in any food shortage people aren't going to "take responsibility" for their actions, they are going to take your food or die trying (probably killing you in the process)

But yes, you are right this SHOULD have been done 20 years ago. But it wasn't. Now we gotta deal with it.

 

[mt_pockets1000]

Do you seriously think the Earth stays in a perfect orbit around the Sun and the Sun doesn't have it's own orbit in which disturbs our overall long term orbit? You have to think further in time then just a couple of centuries to understand what I'm trying to explain to you.

Seems you're not alone in your opinions Praxius.

Army: Sun, Not Man, Is Causing Climate Change (Updated)

By Noah Shachtman June 03, 2008 | 1:46:00 PMCategories: Science!


The Army is weighing in on the global warming debate, claiming that climate change is not entirely man-made. Instead, Dr. Bruce West, with the Army Research Office, argues that "changes in the earth’s average surface temperature are directly linked to ... the short-term statistical fluctuations in the Sun’s irradiance and the longer-term solar cycles."
In an advisory to bloggers entitled "Global Warming: Fact of Fiction [sic]," an Army public affairs official promoted a conference call with West about "the causes of global warming, and how it may not be caused by the common indicates [sic] some scientists and the media are indicating."
In the March, 2008 issue of Physics Today, West, the chief scientist of the Army Research Office's mathematical and information science directorate, wrote that "the Sun’s turbulent dynamics" are linked with the Earth's complex ecosystem. These connections are what is heating up the planet. "The Sun could account for as much as 69 percent of the increase in Earth’s average temperature," West noted.


http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/06/army-vs-global.html

 

[#juan]

The causes of global warming.

http://www.ecobridge.org/content/g_cse.htm

 

[Scott Free]

Seriously, you don't know what you are talking about........or you are blind, or stupid.....or both.

I'm not the one having trouble with this very simple logic. The Earth, Mars and Jupiter are all warming up. I am not so stupid that I think we are the reason. If you can explain how my carbon emissions are causing global warming on Mars and Jupiter then I will concede you have a point.

 

[Tonington]

You know another thing that crossed my mind on this whole stupid debate of nothing, is that the Entire Global Warming Theory and their evidence is all based on information that only goes back to about 100 years or since the Indurstrial revolution.... where as the other side of the argument which claims this is a natural occuring pattern on the planet and through time which refutes every damn thing that Global Warming represents, is based on much longer time patterns which go beyond 100 years, using Glacier Ice Core data that dates back for thousands of years, which shows more accurate scientific proof that this is a natural occurence that the tempratures will increase and decrease throughout time (Regardless of if we're industrialized or still beating sticks on rocks)

So, now the strength of empirical evidence is dependent on time passed since the discovery of heat trapping molecules? Just because something changes, and we now measure it changing, doesn't mean that the cause is the same. You're conflating cause with effect.

Seriously, that's about as logical as saying: humans have died in the past, so I guess those three bullets in Frank's skull were placed there through natural causes, cause he's dead now too!

Eaxctly which side holds the most evidence proving their case? Certainly not Global Warming, that's for damn sure.... it's a farce and is based on limited data.

How would you know? Everything I've heard you repeat here is media swill. Have you ever even read a published paper? Limited data like: ice cores, isotope ratios, changes in growing season, acidification of the oceans, GRACE ice mass satellite recordings, satellites measuring atmospheric temperatures, satellites measuring optical depths of molecules in the atmosphere, decreasing difference between day time and night time temperatures(a greenhouse gas can still emit heat after the sun has dipped below the horizon), species moving farther north to remain in their survivable climate zones, receding glaciers, atmospheric concentrations of gases, nutrient cycle data, and my personal favourite, greenhouse gases rising before temperature, not responding to temperature (hmm, that's not right if we trust ice cores and are trying to call this change the same thing as those in the past 650 kyrs...)

Let's look at the two shall we?

Here's the Global Warming's side of the argument:

^ Oh my Goodness.... We're all going to die!!! UBER and all that!!!! Geez... it just keeps on climbing and climbing with no end in site..... EVIL!!!!

Oh but wait.... let's look at an Ice Core shall we:

^ WOW!!!! Look at that!! There's a continual pattern above of the tempratures going up and then going back down, like a heartbeat on the planet and right now we're going up.... and shortly after, we're going to go right down real fast and we're going to freeze our nads off.

So where were all the Evil SUV's back 225,000 years ago to cause the tempratures to rise like that?

Hmmmmm..... Maybe the GW Freaks are just full of Ignorant Sh*t!

Look at that, you hauled it out! If that natural graph tells you that a steady rise in greenhouse gases, follows a steady rise in temperature that began 800-1200 years earlier(which is how natural climate change usually works), how does that compute with our last 800-1200 years of sporadic jumps and falls? That's not at all steady. The two are at odds. Not the same. That single cause can't have two different effects on the same observation. So maybe it's two different kinds of natural climate change then? Well, none of this tripe that pops up saying global warming is garbage, has actually been able to make conclusions and then make predictions. That's what science does. That's why "skeptics" is a loose term, and the term "denier" popped up. Explain to me how all of these things are happening, known consequences of radiative physics, but somehow it's something else. Some phantom physics that not only has to explain them, but at the same time nullify any effects at all from greenhouse gases.

You're right, they didn't have SUV's back then, possible solution to the paradox perhaps?

Nahhhhhh. Those three bullets must have fell in when his mouth was open. Brainless...

 

[#juan]

Those two graphs do not disagree with each other. Look at the time scales and look where the temperature ends up on the right side of both graphs.

 

[Zzarchov]

Kindly look at that chart you posted will you?

You see how its in a scale of thousands upon thousands of years?


And how that very last section of the chart, literally the width of the line, is a giant red spike higher than the earty has ever experienced in 400,000 years?

Do you also notice how rise in CO2 causes a proportionally greater change in temperature? The red line goes up, the blue line remains in the same pattern.

So if there is a greater change in the last hundred years than there has been in the last 400,000 thousand, and the the temperature pattern you have shown in history follows history, the temperature is going to spike above anothing seen in the 400,000 years, in the most rapid change ever.


That chart is showing changes in 25,000 year periods (or chunks of roughly 6 x human history), changes in 100 years are happening 2500% too fast.
All since the industrial revolution.

 

[MikeyDB]

Well all this stuff sure is a poser....

Food riots and water riots , nuclear war and comets screaming out of the sky impacting earth will ruin your day.

Some will survive and some won't.

And thus it has always been......

 

[#juan]

Kindly look at that chart you posted will you?

You see how its in a scale of thousands upon thousands of years?


And how that very last section of the chart, literally the width of the line, is a giant red spike higher than the earty has ever experienced in 400,000 years?

Do you also notice how rise in CO2 causes a proportionally greater change in temperature? The red line goes up, the blue line remains in the same pattern.

So if there is a greater change in the last hundred years than there has been in the last 400,000 thousand, and the the temperature pattern you have shown in history follows history, the temperature is going to spike above anothing seen in the 400,000 years, in the most rapid change ever.


That chart is showing changes in 25,000 year periods (or chunks of roughly 6 x human history), changes in 100 years are happening 2500% too fast.
All since the industrial revolution.

Nice catch Zzarchov

 

[Praxius]

Nice catch Zzarchov

Bout time someone took a look and noticed that....

Notice how the CO2 level spikes over the Tempratures and that the tempratures don't seem to increase on par with the CO2 as it has in the previous spikes? One would conclude that the CO2/Greenhouse gas levels don't nessicarily link to the tempratures in effect, or to the level in which the GW side likes to think.

But I also found it funny that out of the three graphs I presented, you pick the one that appeared to support your claims, yet avoid the other two such as this one:

^ Where this graph which appears to be more accurate then the one you picked, shows it looking normal compared to the rest of the spikes. And the line thins out the farther back you go, due to less accurate readings from the ice core, but there is enough information to provide a moderate determination of those spikes based on given information..... the closer you come to our current time, the more accurate the spikes become, and thus appear more erradic in comparison. And if the CO2 Levels were supposed to be on par with the tempratures in the graph you chose, then why isn't the tempratures which are shown thrown way off the top of the graph? This also explains the reasoning why many countries, such as Canada didn't follow the Kyoto BS, because Kyoto doesn't actually solve the problem even if there is one.

You guys need to learn how to read these things.

 

[#juan]

Praxius if half an inch is fifty thousand years, 2 hundred years would be one two hundred and fiftieth part of that half inch, so that graph is totally unsuitable for our purposes. I've quit trying to convince you what is obvious to most other people in the world already; Global warming is happening! It may not all be the fault of man but it is definitely happening.