Corruption....

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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The earth, in fact, is not a sphere. Please try to be more precise when you address me, a practicing phizzisist, we frown on imprecision.

Scientists also frown when their carefully chosen words are ignored. Dexter said people once thought the Earth was a sphere, which is an implied statement that most do not think that anymore. Your red herring distracts from the point he was making about how the conclusion that the earth is a sphere, was different from how those earlier philosophers concluded that the earth was flat.

I mean this is a case in point as well about what I said earlier. Science is self-correcting. New information changes how we view the universe.

Scientists also frown on statements implying a level of certainty that cannot be obtained from empirical observations, such as your statements about electric universe as the better hypothesis.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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Tonington;1389107]Scientists also frown when their carefully chosen words are ignored. Dexter said people once thought the Earth was a sphere, which is an implied statement that most do not think that anymore. Your red herring distracts from the point he was making about how the conclusion that the earth is a sphere, was different from how those earlier philosophers concluded that the earth was flat.

Earlier scientists did not believe that the earth was flat, that was an artifact imposed in the dark ages, the facts are that philosophers knew the earth was primarily spherical for thousands of years. So your compound red herring does little to raise the debate to a better level.

I mean this is a case in point as well about what I said earlier. Science is self-correcting. New information changes how we view the universe.

Exactly my point, science may be self adjusting of course, but it is also subject to the enormous external adjusting influence of capital. It is therefore my idea that money and power plays no small role in the supply, accuracy and availability of reliable trustworthy science purely arrived at by science alone and nothing but science..

Scientists also frown on statements implying a level of certainty that cannot be obtained from empirical observations, such as your statements about electric universe as the better hypothesis

There is absolutely no chance whatever that the electric model is not the observable superior in every way to the big bang and that it is refused its position by political rather than scientific demand.

A Habit of Lies - Preface

A Habit of Lies - How Scientists Cheat

Chapter 1 - Cell Motility and Scientific Cheating


1.1 Introduction
1.2 Scientific Responsibility
1.3 Life through the Microscope
1.4 What is Described in "A Habit of Lies"?
1.5 What does "A Habit of Lies" aim to do?


Facts are like cows, if you look them in the eye long enough they generally run away. (Dorothy Parker)
1.1 Introduction

These are the facts, as announced in 1642 by Dr. John Lightfoot, later Vice-chancellor of Cambridge University. God created the heavens and the earth on October 23rd, 4004 BC, at nine o'clock in the morning. During the next six days, the Holy Trinity created man and all creatures now inhabiting the earth, as well as the fossilised remains of many now dead species.
These are the facts, according to modern science. Life began in the primordial soup that made up the earth's oceans some four billion years ago. For three billion of those years, evolution by natural selection gradually made life more complex and diverse, while the emergent life changed even the earth itself as primitive plants consumed the carbon dioxide of the atmosphere and replaced it with oxygen. The earth became cooler with this change in its atmosphere but soon the first animals developed to complete the cycle, consuming oxygen and returning carbon dioxide to the air. Life floated, then swam, through the seas until, about 400 million years ago, a short time in comparison to what had gone before, it sprouted and crawled its way onto the land. Animals have changed little since that time - reptiles, dinosaurs, mammals and men being but variations on some fishy mudskipper.
This work will not discuss whether the biblical or scientific descriptions of our origins is the true one. It will not seek to reconcile them but neither will it select one for ridicule; it will note that these two claims have more in common than is immediately apparent, particularly in respect of their social contexts. In fact, socially, it is difficult to distinguish them, with large, powerful groups proclaiming both as essentially factual.
Today's scientists might dismiss Dr. Lightfoot's calculations as baseless and suggest that the attention given his work reflected not its merit but his own elevated social status. They may claim that their own approach is free from such distortions, but "A Habit of Lies", a work about science not religion, will challenge such claims. Because it is a work about science it will treat "facts" as those generated by science but it does not suggest that Dr. Lightfoot's conclusions were insincere. Indeed, a principal conclusion will be that all facts, including those of science, owe a large part of their "factuality" to the social power of those who advocate them, regardless of whether the power so exercised is confined within science, or manifested in wider society. This book will review one field of biology, presenting its arguments and reasoning in a social, as well as scientific, context. The resulting portrayal of science will be very different from that found in most textbooks.

1.2 Scientific Responsibility
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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Now knowing what a sneaky fu cker you can be, let's see you twist this sucker up the way you had intended and maybe I can fathom what you are in fact, getting at. :smile:
Sneaky? Naaaaaah. I just like to make people think of the big picture before they go off on a contextual rant.

What do you think I'm getting at?

BTW the way the earth is not a sphere. It's oblate.

A sphere (from Greek σφαῖραsphaira, "globe, ball") is a perfectly round geometrical object in three-dimensional space, such as the shape of a round ball. Like a circle in two dimensions, a perfect sphere is completely symmetrical around its center, with all points on the surface lying the same distance r from the center point. This distance r is known as the radius of the sphere. The maximum straight distance through the sphere is known as the diameter of the sphere. It passes through the center and is thus twice the radius.

It takes years of hard work and effort to be a publishing scientist. The payoff isn't even that large. For less effort, a different field could have been chosen which pays much more. The payoff for becoming a scientist is that you get to ask unanswered questions that interest you, and try to determine the answer, or at least learn something which allows you to ask better questions. Universities don't pay better than industry, and industry doesn't publish what can be patented in peer-reviewed journals.
You speak of only 3% of "research scientists. The rest work for private industry. So as a private contract scientist you are saying I don't have to have my findings reviewed and publsihed and then my findings confirmed by an unbiased source?

Ask a venture capital manager if he and his investors trust non-verified data.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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You speak of only 3% of "research scientists. The rest work for private industry. So as a private contract scientist you are saying I don't have to have my findings reviewed and publsihed and then my findings confirmed by an unbiased source?

70% of research and development in scientific and technical fields is carried out by industry, and 20% and 10% respectively by universities and government.


The peer review process that is at the core of science’s ability for self-correction consists of two phases. The first one is the rather institutionalized practice that every editor of a scientific (or other scholarly) journal follows: when an author submits a paper for publication, the editor reads it and sends it out to a minimum of two reviewers who are chosen because they are experts in the particular field to which the paper is pertinent. The reviewers (who are anonymous to the author) send more or less detailed comments to the editor who then makes a judgment as to the suitability of the paper for publication.

But it is the second, more informal and open-ended, component of peer review that is really crucial. The first step relies on the expert advice of a small number of people (the editor and the reviewers), and it is subjected to conflict of interests (maybe one of the reviewers knows the author and dislikes her on personal grounds; or they have been in direct competition for grants, so that the reviewer has an interest in keeping the author from publishing). But after the paper is out everyone in the scientific community can read it, cite it (or not), and criticize it at meetings or in print. This second part of the peer review process is what really matters, because fraudulent papers in the long run end up in one of two categories: they are either completely forgotten because they didn’t really address an important topic at all (in which case the author gets away with the fraud, but there is no lasting damage to the scientific enterprise), or they are discovered because other people tried to replicate or build on the results and failed.

Rationally Speaking


 
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Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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It takes years of hard work and effort to be a publishing scientist. The payoff isn't even that large. For less effort, a different field could have been chosen which pays much more. The payoff for becoming a scientist is that you get to ask unanswered questions that interest you, and try to determine the answer, or at least learn something which allows you to ask better questions. Universities don't pay better than industry, and industry doesn't publish what can be patented in peer-reviewed journals.

I'm working on developing a DNA vaccine at work. If we can develop a successful challenge model that produces mortality for the disease we're interested in, that would be a publishable finding, as nobody has done so, despite vaccines already being on the market for this disease. But we wouldn't include anything related to our vaccine development, because that can hamper patent applications once the information becomes public.

That science is no less rigorous than that which universities produce. We still get peer reviewed, as there are many independent scientists involved in the decisions when dossiers are submitted for product approval.

You speak of only 3% of "research scientists. The rest work for private industry. So as a private contract scientist you are saying I don't have to have my findings reviewed and publsihed and then my findings confirmed by an unbiased source?

Ask a venture capital manager if he and his investors trust non-verified data.

I don't need to ask a venture capital manager.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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70% of research and development in scientific and technical fields is carried out by industry, and 20% and 10% respectively by universities and government.
LOL....who is funding the research in the universities? Tax moolah or corporate chairs?
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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Scientists also frown when their carefully chosen words are ignored. Dexter said people once thought the Earth was a sphere, which is an implied statement that most do not think that anymore. Your red herring distracts from the point he was making about how the conclusion that the earth is a sphere, was different from how those earlier philosophers concluded that the earth was flat.

I mean this is a case in point as well about what I said earlier. Science is self-correcting. New information changes how we view the universe.

Scientists also frown on statements implying a level of certainty that cannot be obtained from empirical observations, such as your statements about electric universe as the better hypothesis.

Yes of course he did, what a terrible mistake I've just made, and in the face of clear evidence to the contrary. There, that admission is the mark of honest science. I win .
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Yes of course he did, what a terrible mistake I've just made, and in the face of clear evidence to the contrary. There, that admission is the mark of honest science. I win .

You can collect your hero cookie by mailing the regulatory affairs department for your winnings, minus the applicable taxes.:lol:
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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Nakusp, BC
I watched a documentary last night on the search for the original migrants that populated the Americas. They took most of the hour to come to the conclusion that it was not by the Bering land bridge. Crap I knew that 4 years ago. When I asked an archaeologist, at the time, about it he said they knew that for at least 5 years. So nine years later it is now being spoon fed to the public that almost everything we thought was true about the original inhabitants was wrong. They came here by boat. The whole documentary was so full of filler that they could have conveyed the news in a 5 minute soundbite. In fact I presented more evidence in three pages of my book than they did in one hour. All they really did was prepare a bamboozled public for the truth of what scientists have known for a long time.

I really have a problem with that sort of dishonesty.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
I watched a documentary last night on the search for the original migrants that populated the Americas. They took most of the hour to come to the conclusion that it was not by the Bering land bridge. Crap I knew that 4 years ago. When I asked an archaeologist, at the time, about it he said they knew that for at least 5 years. So nine years later it is now being spoon fed to the public that almost everything we thought was true about the original inhabitants was wrong. They came here by boat. The whole documentary was so full of filler that they could have conveyed the news in a 5 minute soundbite. In fact I presented more evidence in three pages of my book than they did in one hour. All they really did was prepare a bamboozled public for the truth of what scientists have known for a long time.

I really have a problem with that sort of dishonesty.

Did it have a nice sound track Cliffy? That's what drives me to froth at the mouth at the history channels docudramahistory crap, the music fill and the over the top dramatization of stuff like excavations and core samples. Hollywood ruins science.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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Did it have a nice sound track Cliffy? That's what drives me to froth at the mouth at the history channels docudramahistory crap, the music fill and the over the top dramatization of stuff like excavations and core samples. Hollywood ruins science.
It was on the Nature of Thing, which was very disappointing as they usually do better. They tried to say that it was a huge debate within the scientific community when in fact it has been an accepted doctrine for a decade. The indigenous people have been trying to tell scientist that for a hundred years or more.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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It was on the Nature of Thing, which was very disappointing as they usually do better. They tried to say that it was a huge debate within the scientific community when in fact it has been an accepted doctrine for a decade. The indigenous people have been trying to tell scientist that for a hundred years or more.
But those are myths Cliffy. You can't believe in myth and say that is how it happened especially when the story dates back to the Pleistocene.

Look up the Argentavis sometime and ask yourself if the Thunderbird really belongs in the realm of cryptozoology.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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But those are myths Cliffy. You can't believe in myth and say that is how it happened especially when the story dates back to the Pleistocene.

Look up the Argentavis sometime and ask yourself if the Thunderbird really belongs in the realm of cryptozoology.
The Sinixt have a story of a pair of huge flying creatures that terrorized them in the Arrow Lakes. They translated the name of the creatures to mean Pterodactyl but may have been Argentavis or something similar, as the legend is only hundreds of years old. I have seen pictures of this bird before but never was accompanied by an explanation.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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It would have been something similar. I'm trying to find the North American version of the giant bird. I just can't remember the name for the life of me.