Christians VS Democracy??

[MMMike]

Hey - The Conservative Party of Canada closely aligned with christianity isn't it?

Does anyone have any links about how christian they are and what their policies on religion and politics are? I looked at their site and don't see anything.

There are no formal links between the Conservatives & any Christian churches. A sizeable (?) membership tries to advocate their religious beliefs using the party as their vehicle, but there's plenty of members of other religions, and atheists too.

 

[MMMike]

Re: RE: Christians VS Democra

I'll vote for the party that commits to bailing out our country's financially-strapped students. Canada can afford to subsidize post-secondary education like they do in the Netherlands and Sweden. That would be an investment in a more civil, reasonable, and empowered society.

All any of our parties seem to do at the moment is throw money at patch-up programs to fix yesterday's problems. Our universities are full of visionaries. Let's tap that as a primary resource in this country.

As the old saying goes: every dollar spent on schools is one less spent on prisons.

So sorry, there's no more money for education because of spiralling health care costs, and other fluff like gun registries and daycare programs. The government should focus on core programs instead of dreaming up a myriad new social programs. :evil:

 

[bormann]

Hey - The Conservative Party of Canada closely aligned with christianity isn't it?

Does anyone have any links about how christian they are and what their policies on religion and politics are? I looked at their site and don't see anything.

There are no formal links between the Cons & any Christian churches. A sizeable (?) membership tries to advocate their religious beliefs using the party as their vehicle, but there's plenty of members of other religions, and atheists too.

Well, one thing that made me think they are aligned with the Christian right was when they drove a big bus emblazened with "Defend the Institution of Marriage" (or something to that bent) and the Conservative party logo into our town and some Con M.P.s stepped out to lead a march from a Christian church to the town square. This sort of thing might give one the impression that there could be some sort of at least remote connection between the Cons and the church. Of course, it could have just been a rogue faction within the Cons that broke loose to act against party policy.

Maybe this gave me the wrong idea as well: "Stephen Harper, a Christian & Missionary Alliance church member..." -Christianity Today [http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/008/13.15.html]

I did a little more research and learned that S.H. has publicly shown opposition to letting social conservativism drive the Cons agenda. However, in this speech called "Rediscovering The Right Agenda" [http://www.ccicinc.org/politicalaffairs/060103.html] addressed to the Christian Coalition International, S.H. calls for the merging of social and economic conservativism. Ooh...all this policy drift and shift...does S.H. suffer from a few dithers of his own?

 

[bormann]

Re: RE: Christians VS Democra

I'll vote for the party that commits to bailing out our country's financially-strapped students. Canada can afford to subsidize post-secondary education like they do in the Netherlands and Sweden. That would be an investment in a more civil, reasonable, and empowered society.

All any of our parties seem to do at the moment is throw money at patch-up programs to fix yesterday's problems. Our universities are full of visionaries. Let's tap that as a primary resource in this country.

As the old saying goes: every dollar spent on schools is one less spent on prisons.

So sorry, there's no more money for education because of spiralling health care costs, and other fluff like gun registries and daycare programs. The government should focus on core programs instead of dreaming up a myriad new social programs. :evil:

Exactly.

Hey, do you folks think any existing party has the solution? Are all the parties irrelevant? Is our political system irrelevant? Wondering what others think...

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Christians VS Democra

Not exactly. It was cut backs in education that led to much of the medical system problem. We don't have enough doctors and nurses because we didn't train them. There might be one or two people on here who have known me long enough to understand exactly what I mean when I say, "Told ya this would happen!"

I think most of the solution to our health care problem can be found in the Romanow Report, bormann. It has ways to reduce costs as well as looking for money.

When it comes to education....More educated people make more money. People who make more money pay more taxes. One of the traps that we've fallen into is thinking that education should a) targeted strictly towards a job in a specific field and b) thinking that education is determined strictly by a degree and what that degree is.

Somebody with an education in the arts...just that general 4 years that everybody laughs about...teaches you how to think. Somebody who has worked in several fields and done a lot of self-study in others has not only learned how to think, but has picked up several portable skills.

Instead of actually valuing knowledge and education, we value those who aren't "intellectual". Sorry, but if want people who can actually think, then we want intellectuals. Want to fix education? Don't vote for a party that attacks professors and educators as living in ivory towers. Don't vote for a party who cozies up to Creationism. These are people who celebrate stupidity. They are not people with vision.

 

[bormann]

Re: RE: Christians VS Democra

I think most of the solution to our health care problem can be found in the Romanow Report, bormann. It has ways to reduce costs as well as looking for money.

When it comes to education....More educated people make more money. People who make more money pay more taxes. One of the traps that we've fallen into is thinking that education should a) targeted strictly towards a job in a specific field and b) thinking that education is determined strictly by a degree and what that degree is.

Reverend Blair, it was not me that mentioned the health care problem, though I think you are bang-on when you say that cuts to education hurt health care.

I also support what you say about a less insectile approach to education. I remember those old guys telling me as a teenager to become an engineer because that's "where the money's gonna be". Well, I'm glad I ignored them because the engineers I know are killing themselves to get the last of the jobs available in the rotting auto industry.

I got the General Arts education and acquired "habits of mind" to adapt to our rapidly changing world. I have found those with a more interdisciplinary education to be more adaptable, versatile, and articulate. They also seem less inclined to surrender their minds to every piece of dogma fed from above.

Remember what happens when societies lose their critical faculties? Think later Rome; think 20th century cults-of-personality.

 

[Colpy]

Well, I've been reading this thread, and now (if you guys are done jacking each other.........I mean engaging in meaningful debate), perhaps I might present some alternative views.

First of all, we are already near the top of the list for terrorist attack.. Osama himself listed us in the top five targets. So it is not a case of if, but a case of when......so guess what? Appeasing the monster won't work. God, the very idea makes me sick.

Education in this country SUCKS. I know, I used to be a teacher. The biggest problems are the idea that "all are equal, and must be allowed to succeed", and a culture among our youth that puts value on ignorance and stupidity.

The first problem can be handled by streaming, and booting the trouble makers out of school, and expecting high performance from the rest.

I'm not sure what to do about a culture of ignorance.

My idea is that the Feds should set up a voluntary testing system for those graduating high school. Top scorers (perhaps as many as 20%)would be given a grant (enough to pay for books, tuition, plus, say $15,000) The grant would be renewable year-to-year if a certain GPA was maintained.

We have got to get our best and brightest educated, without any handicap for their economic status.

Now, I'm gonna try a new angle for health care......which is, as you know, a provincial responsibility. So who the hell are the Feds to come in, paying considerably less than the 50% (16% I heard) originally agreed to, and tell the provinces how they may deliver health care?

Here in New Brunswick, you can't find a family Doctor if you don't already have one. I spent ten hours in emergency with a painful (but minor) problem.

Another thing that pisses me off.......how come Alberta gets the flack....while Quebec is the King of private health care?

Doesn't anyone think it is well past time to have a PM NOT from Quebec? Maybe then we could get out a crowbar and remove the Federal Gov't's lips from Quebecois arse.

NOW HEAR THIS

Stephen Harper is not a threat to public health care.


Geez.

As for Iraq, yes, I would have us there.

Yes, it appears there are no WMD, unless they are in Syria.......

but YES I would rather the US was fighting terrorists in Iraq rather than here.

Here's a question: If the USA pulled out of Iraq voluntarily and unilaterally tomorrow, would the level of violence go up or down?

AND FINALLY Christianity and the state in the USA....

You folks seem to forget that the entire concept of separation of church and state is, I believe, FIRST legally expressed in the US Constitution.

And that reads "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" (First Amendment, the Bill of Rights)

That's it.

Now, anyone who knows their history knows that means they were trying to avoid state religion, such as the Church of England, which was supported by the state.

If Congress wants to declare that the United States is a Christian country, without passing any law regarding same, they are perfectly capable legally of doing so.

That's my rant for the moment.

 

[Reverend Blair]

First of all, we are already near the top of the list for terrorist attack.. Osama himself listed us in the top five targets.

So? Hey, if I'd had my way we would have gone after him after he and his pals were blowing up Buddhas, but you all told me not to worry, that you knew what you were doing and it was ther own damned business if they wanted to perform forced clitorectomies.

You'll, of course, forgive me if I tell you to take a flying f*ck at the moon now.

Education in this country SUCKS. I know, I used to be a teacher.

I think I'm beginning to see a pattern here...

The biggest problems are the idea that "all are equal, and must be allowed to succeed"

See, the real teachers I know say, "All are equal and we must help them to succeed." You've cut everything to the bone in the name of corporate profits and now you blame those you refused to help because they failed, at least by your narrow definition of success.

and a culture among our youth that puts value on ignorance and stupidity.

The value on ignorance and stupidity is a value of the right. "Ivory towers,""Intellectuals don't live in the real world,""Plainspoken". You made being smart a bad thing. You made thinking a negative attribute. You turned mainstream politics into the mindless tripe normally spewed by high school footbal players. You glorify ignorance and stupidity, have been doing so for a quarter of a century. You did it as no more than a cheap political ploy. Now you have the nerve to stand up and blame it on the culture of our youth? You created that culture.

The rest of your post shows exactly where your culture of ignorance leads.

 

[MMMike]

Re: RE: Christians VS Democracy??

Well, I've been reading this thread, and now (if you guys are done jacking each other.........I mean engaging in meaningful debate), perhaps I might present some alternative views.

First of all, we are already near the top of the list for terrorist attack.. Osama himself listed us in the top five targets. So it is not a case of if, but a case of when......so guess what? Appeasing the monster won't work. God, the very idea makes me sick.

Education in this country SUCKS. I know, I used to be a teacher. The biggest problems are the idea that "all are equal, and must be allowed to succeed", and a culture among our youth that puts value on ignorance and stupidity.

The first problem can be handled by streaming, and booting the trouble makers out of school, and expecting high performance from the rest.

I'm not sure what to do about a culture of ignorance.

My idea is that the Feds should set up a voluntary testing system for those graduating high school. Top scorers (perhaps as many as 20%)would be given a grant (enough to pay for books, tuition, plus, say $15,000) The grant would be renewable year-to-year if a certain GPA was maintained.

We have got to get our best and brightest educated, without any handicap for their economic status.

Now, I'm gonna try a new angle for health care......which is, as you know, a provincial responsibility. So who the hell are the Feds to come in, paying considerably less than the 50% (16% I heard) originally agreed to, and tell the provinces how they may deliver health care?

Here in New Brunswick, you can't find a family Doctor if you don't already have one. I spent ten hours in emergency with a painful (but minor) problem.

Another thing that pisses me off.......how come Alberta gets the flack....while Quebec is the King of private health care?

Doesn't anyone think it is well past time to have a PM NOT from Quebec? Maybe then we could get out a crowbar and remove the Federal Gov't's lips from Quebecois arse.

NOW HEAR THIS

Stephen Harper is not a threat to public health care.


Geez.

As for Iraq, yes, I would have us there.

Yes, it appears there are no WMD, unless they are in Syria.......

but YES I would rather the US was fighting terrorists in Iraq rather than here.

Here's a question: If the USA pulled out of Iraq voluntarily and unilaterally tomorrow, would the level of violence go up or down?

AND FINALLY Christianity and the state in the USA....

You folks seem to forget that the entire concept of separation of church and state is, I believe, FIRST legally expressed in the US Constitution.

And that reads "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" (First Amendment, the Bill of Rights)

That's it.

Now, anyone who knows their history knows that means they were trying to avoid state religion, such as the Church of England, which was supported by the state.

If Congress wants to declare that the United States is a Christian country, without passing any law regarding same, they are perfectly capable legally of doing so.

That's my rant for the moment.

I agree with most of what you said here Colpy, except the last part. Religion and government should not ever mix. What about the atheists, or people of another religion?? We can't have everything decided by a popular vote... ever hear of 'tyrannty of the majority'? Governments represent, and are supported by ALL the people - and to impose a religion even if it represents the majority is just wrong.

 

[bormann]

Re: RE: Christians VS Democracy??

First of all, we are already near the top of the list for terrorist attack.. Osama himself listed us in the top five targets.

So, do we need to accelerate the occurance of such an attack? Do we need to guarantee a retaliatory attack?

Education in this country SUCKS. I know, I used to be a teacher. The biggest problems are the idea that "all are equal, and must be allowed to succeed", and a culture among our youth that puts value on ignorance and stupidity.

Could it be the corporate mandate which only places value on the pursuit of money (not ideas, intellect, or civility) that has a dumbing-down effect on our population?

The first problem can be handled by streaming, and booting the trouble makers out of school, and expecting high performance from the rest.

As I mentioned before, a dollar spent on education means one less spent on prisons. I also think that when there's more information outside the classroom than in it, we need to create a more stimulating, rich environment for learning.

My idea is that the Feds should set up a voluntary testing system for those graduating high school. Top scorers (perhaps as many as 20%)would be given a grant (enough to pay for books, tuition, plus, say $15,000) The grant would be renewable year-to-year if a certain GPA was maintained.

So long as said testing system gauges more than just "nerd" metrics like GPA. We need to value a wholistic set of skills and understanding beyond book literacy and math. Some sense of communication skills should be valued.

We have got to get our best and brightest educated, without any handicap for their economic status.

I agree with this. We need to make sure that the top and bottom students don't fall through the cracks of a system that values mediocrity and robotism.

As for health care...health care is always on the table because so many people don't know how to take care of themselves and then they clog the system. I think television is causing cancer in alot of people (one day this will be widely known; the dominant radio frequency that TV emits speeds development of cancer cells in lab rats). And there's no redeeming culture to immerse oneself in once the 5 o'clock whistle blows, so most flop in front of the tube or a case of beer. We need to focus on lifestyle improvement. Promote an active lifestyle, vibrant culture, and a future that is prosperous economically and socially; give people a reason to get out of their rut; recognize our intellectuals as a valuable component of the community.

I don't think the corporate, big-box, big-brand approach gives people hope or deep self-worth. It makes for crappy, dull jobs; it makes people numb and dumb; it drives our brightest and most creative visionaries out of the country. Sadly, the type of economic conservatism espoused by the Cons would pound the stake of this abysmal corporate culture even deeper into the ground.

 

[Colpy]

"So long as said testing system gauges more than just "nerd" metrics like GPA. We need to value a wholistic set of skills and understanding beyond book literacy and math. Some sense of communication skills should be valued."

Communications skills are extremely important.........and certainly I would want the ability to express one's self to be part of any testing requirement.

as for the rest........well, I'm tired, so let's leave it on a pleasant note.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Yes, it appears there are no WMD, unless they are in Syria.......

but YES I would rather the US was fighting terrorists in Iraq rather than here.

ok.........so why not take your butt and move it to the US and sign up for THEIR Military and go into Iraq and do your WAR Thing.....

Let CA try to maintain some semblance of SANITY in a world going streadily more insane due to all the US interference and warmongering. Let us maintain ........as much as we can realistically........the PEACE loving and promoting nation that we stand for. As it is ......Ca is forced to continue a delicate balancing act between the fanatics to the south, and good Canadian common sense.

anyone that wants war..........just pack your bags and move stateside......... and your wishes will be granted.

This insane US fearmongering must be contageous as golly, if one did not know better.......one would think you was regurgitating the bush doctrine. So again..........go and join the fear mongers.. We will accept all the peace niks from the US in return..

sounds like a win win situation.

(and take that Harper fanatic with you)

 

[Colpy]

Oh, come on OB,

I heard that from the establishment side back in the sixties "your country, love it or leave it."

 

[Reverend Blair]

Communications skills are extremely important.........and certainly I would want the ability to express one's self to be part of any testing requirement.

So what's the test? Is it that we can show up to work and make somebody else rich? I'd like to fail that test, please. Oh, and I'd like to castrate the man in charge of administering it.

I communicate just fine, Colpy. A lot of people dont want to listen, but I speak the Queen's English...in an Anarchy for the UK kind of way. Sometimes I even try the odd literay gambit, but it's generally wasted because my audience tends to be be a little older than me.

I can even punctuate and, if pressed, spell iambic pentantameter correctly. :wink:

You're ten years older than me, Colpy. That pretty much makes you the age of my educators, if slightly more colourfully dressed. Funny how that works out.

 

[Colpy]

Communications skills are extremely important.........and certainly I would want the ability to express one's self to be part of any testing requirement.

So what's the test? Is it that we can show up to work and make somebody else rich? I'd like to fail that test, please. Oh, and I'd like to castrate the man in charge of administering it.

I communicate just fine, Colpy. A lot of people dont want to listen, but I speak the Queen's English...in an Anarchy for the UK kind of way. Sometimes I even try the odd literay gambit, but it's generally wasted because my audience tends to be be a little older than me.

I can even punctuate and, if pressed, spell iambic pentantameter correctly. :wink:

You're ten years older than me, Colpy. That pretty much makes you the age of my educators, if slightly more colourfully dressed. Funny how that works out.

Yeah, you do express yourself well. Well enough that, I must confess, I thought you were older than I.

You know you're getting old when.....

1. The cop that pulls you over looks like he just had his pampers changed.

2. Everybody seems to be at least 5 years younger than you.

On subject, I would test with writing questions, general math and logic questions, perhaps basic general knowledge..........you know, geography, civics, etc.

 

[Colpy]

]

First of all, we are already near the top of the list for terrorist attack.. Osama himself listed us in the top five targets.

So? Hey, if I'd had my way we would have gone after him after he and his pals were blowing up Buddhas, but you all told me not to worry, that you knew what you were doing and it was ther own damned business if they wanted to perform forced clitorectomies.

Yeah, well, me too. Unlike you guys, I celebrate when the worst dictators on earth are removed by the free world.

You'll, of course, forgive me if I tell you to take a flying f*ck at the moon now.

Right back at ya. And I hope you fall on your head in the attempt. Might knock some sense in.

The biggest problems are the idea that "all are equal, and must be allowed to succeed"

See, the real teachers I know say, "All are equal and we must help them to succeed." You've cut everything to the bone in the name of corporate profits and now you blame those you refused to help because they failed, at least by your narrow definition of success.

Yeah right. We'll help them by stuffing 35 to 40 kids in a classroom. They will be varied, from seriously handicapped, behavioural problems, just plain stupid, to people smarter by far than the average teacher. nOW teach. Good Luck

You'd fit right in at an education faculty meeting. They too believe in every lefty fairy tale you can imagine.

and a culture among our youth that puts value on ignorance and stupidity.

The value on ignorance and stupidity is a value of the right. "Ivory towers,""Intellectuals don't live in the real world,""Plainspoken". You made being smart a bad thing. You made thinking a negative attribute. You turned mainstream politics into the mindless tripe normally spewed by high school footbal players. You glorify ignorance and stupidity, have been doing so for a quarter of a century. You did it as no more than a cheap political ploy. Now you have the nerve to stand up and blame it on the culture of our youth? You created that culture.

oh, RIGHT!!!!

Tell me Rev, who says every kid that goes in grade one has to come out of grade 12?

Not the right.

Who tells me that all beliefs are equal in value, an invitation to stupidity if ever I saw one?

Not the right.

Who changed the classroom into a conglomerate of abilities and behaviors, and made streaming by ability a no-no so no one would feel left out or inferior?

Not the right.

Who considers education a "right" instead of a priviledge?

Not the right.

If you want to see the face of the culture that has high school students graduating that can't f#cking read, look in the damn mirror!!!

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Christians VS Democra

Nice try, Colpy, but wrong. Every problem you mentioned comes back to funding. You cut it to the bone and the education system suffered. Who stuffed so many kids into one classroom, then cut back on teachers aides? It sure as hell wasn't the teachers and it sure as hell wan't the left. It was the bean counters on the right.

Education is a right and not a privilege. If you deprive a child of an education, you deprive them of a chance to make a good living. You also deprive society of the chance to produce a productive individual who will help the economy to grow.

 

[Jay]

You MUST send your kids to school or home school them. Public funding for education is not a right, it's a policy.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Christians VS Democra

Yes, you must educate your children. There are choices available, Jay. There is homeschooling. Several provinces have a separate school system as well as a public one. There are private schools.

Are you arguing that you want to keep your kids uneducated?

 

[no1important]

RE: Christians VS Democra

Public education is a policy that came to be from people wanting it to be a right. ( I hope that made sense)

It is a right and as far as I am concerned, any and all post secondary education should be free no matter what field you study, whether you want to be a butcher, engineer or a vet. The only condition I would have is you have to pass your classes, whether you get an "A" or "C-" as long as you pass you do not pay for education or books.

This way post secondary education will be readily availble to all, not just the ones that can afford to go or qualify for student loans. Even if you are 40 and decide to quit your job to try something else for example, post secondary would still be free.