Childhood Gender Segregation

[mapleleafgirl]

Ok, you have two points there.

Why would it be inappropriate? Because of gender identity issues or because of biological sex? I think if you try to formulate an explanation for me instead of simply asserting its inappropriateness you will need to use ideas about human sexuality and not just physical biology. A reasoning for this segregation, in my opinion, rests solely on antiquated gender theory which equates physical sexuality and gender identitiy. I don't think we should have a segregation at all, I think that there should be private washrooms, period. Please don't believe that I am suggesting we segregate on the notions of gender identity. century.

oh no way, sorry, no way would i or any other girl want guys sharing our bathrooms. its just not right. no point pretending that guys dont want it either i bet. tere ar certain things that are just private, and using a bathroom is one of them. besides, hard to talk about the guys if theyre in there with us

look at it another way. if you had a young daughter, would you let her run around naked in front of the male neighbours? so, if you wouldnt do that, why would you le her in a public bathroom

 

[Niflmir]

okay. im not as old as most of you, but i have an opinion on this. i see a problem from your comment, one allot of us women make...we are trying to tell the men what they need to be now. maybe we should let the men talk for themselves. no way, no matter how much we read about it, will we understand what it is like being a guy and living up to what other guys expect a man to be.only a guy can really know what guys need to be, in my opinion.

I agree with you completely. I just think that my experience will always be a lot different from what men's experience in the past were. I think there is certainly some unattainable "norm", that nobody fits into exactly but describes a lot of our experiences. I think that you can understand a lot from that.

Of course we should never discount empathy and sympathy. To say that someone will never fully understand me is not to say that someone can not understand me partially.

I don't want to ever say what any person should be like. (well maybe that people should not be hateful and mean, but that's it, I swear!) I apologize if I implied that.

 

[Niflmir]

oh no way, sorry, no way would i or any other girl want guys sharing our bathrooms. its just not right. no point pretending that guys dont want it either i bet. tere ar certain things that are just private, and using a bathroom is one of them. besides, hard to talk about the guys if theyre in there with us

look at it another way. if you had a young daughter, would you let her run around naked in front of the male neighbours? so, if you wouldnt do that, why would you le her in a public bathroom

I am not suggesting that. I am in fact suggesting personal bathrooms to avoid an already thorny issue. As to whether you want a guy in your bathroom, what about a transgendered male, would you allow her into your washroom? San Francisco, California and a number of other states say you don't have a choice, when the issue comes up in Canada, I am sure you won't have one here anymore either.

As for the young daughter, depends on her age (there is a window where certainly I should instil a moral view in one direction or the other). It is largely a red herring though, what I am saying is that the male/female distinction is a false dichotomy because male is not the same as man, and female is not the same as woman. We need to embrace a larger picture of human sexuality.

 

[mapleleafgirl]

I am not suggesting that. I am in fact suggesting personal bathrooms to avoid an already thorny issue. As to whether you want a guy in your bathroom, what about a transgendered male, would you allow her into your washroom? San Francisco, California and a number of other states say you don't have a choice, when the issue comes up in Canada, I am sure you won't have one here anymore either.
ty.

you mean "he". guys dressing like women are freaks and should go get counselling. i dont care how much makeup they put on, if they got a penis, theyre guys. being a guy isnt about the clothes you wear, isnt that what we tell guys nowadays? anyway, thats a bad example cos im talking normal people not pyschologicaly ill people.

 

[Niflmir]

you mean "he". guys dressing like women are freaks and should go get counselling. i dont care how much makeup they put on, if they got a penis, theyre guys. being a guy isnt about the clothes you wear, isnt that what we tell guys nowadays? anyway, thats a bad example cos im talking normal people not pyschologicaly ill people.

Ah, but that's exactly why I picked this example. In fact what we say nowadays is: society does not tell you who you are, biology does not tell you who you are, you tell us who you are. Having a penis or a vagina is irrelevent to one's identity and modern psychologists recognize that. I don't care how much makeup they wear either, and I am not necessarily talking about transvestites, I am talking about genuine transgendered individuals. It is these people that enforced segregations hurt and antiquated views of gender can't accomodate.

 

[m_levesque]

I agree with you completely. I just think that my experience will always be a lot different from what men's experience in the past were. I think there is certainly some unattainable "norm", that nobody fits into exactly but describes a lot of our experiences. I think that you can understand a lot from that.

Of course we should never discount empathy and sympathy. To say that someone will never fully understand me is not to say that someone can not understand me partially.

I don't want to ever say what any person should be like. (well maybe that people should not be hateful and mean, but that's it, I swear!) I apologize if I implied that.

One of the problems in today's PC world, as Maple hinted at, is a cross sexism against males. We now live in a time when women are trying to tell us how to think and how to behave. In fact, we need to bond with other males as young boys. It is as essential for us as boys as it is for girls.

 

[m_levesque]

oh no way, sorry, no way would i or any other girl want guys sharing our bathrooms. its just not right. no point pretending that guys dont want it either i bet. tere ar certain things that are just private, and using a bathroom is one of them. besides, hard to talk about the guys if theyre in there with us a public bathroom

Quite right. Let's remember we are talking about gender roles for children. That being the case, one of the major reasons for different washrooms for children is the fact that these washrooms include communal showers. It would be most inappropriate, for the sake of decency, to mix the two in one area in such cases. I mean, you wouldn't let your teenage daughter shower with her male friends, would you?

 

[hermanntrude]

I went to an all-boys boarding school, then went to another all boys school, then went to university. At that stage i was totally unprepared. It made me pretty useless for a good few years. Might not be a bad thing though, but it made me pretty miserable. Imagine a 20 year old who's unable to talk to girls cos he's hardly ever met one.

 

[karrie]

okay. im not as old as most of you, but i have an opinion on this. i see a problem from your comment, one allot of us women make...we are trying to tell the men what they need to be now. maybe we should let the men talk for themselves. no way, no matter how much we read about it, will we understand what it is like being a guy and living up to what other guys expect a man to be.only a guy can really know what guys need to be, in my opinion.

There are simply too many posts since I put this up last night to reply to them all, but this one really caught my eye. I think your observation is a very astute one Maple. At older ages, I don't find this to be such a concern, but right now my son is 5. And he's a hyper 5. He's a true boy... loud, jumpy, and physical. He does well in integrated play groups, and he's adjusting to kindergarten, but he still gets very frustrated, because he constantly has to try to change his behavior from its natural path. There's nothing wrong with who he is normally, but, the girls don't appreciate loud, physical play for the most part. So he has to adjust to fit. not the other way around.

When I saw this boys' class, the idea of a class where he can make messes, run and play with other boys, be rough and tumble if he wants, and not have to apologize for it, I jumped at it. I don't want my son to grow up having to constantly supress and change who he is. I want there to be some areas where he can maintain who he wants to be, rather than being told by others what to become.

 

[karrie]

I went to an all-boys boarding school, then went to another all boys school, then went to university. At that stage i was totally unprepared. It made me pretty useless for a good few years. Might not be a bad thing though, but it made me pretty miserable. Imagine a 20 year old who's unable to talk to girls cos he's hardly ever met one.

I wonder where it is exactly that I draw the line.... because I don't find that degree of gender segregation to be acceptable. Like you say, it doesn't prepare you for the real world.

 

[hermanntrude]

it's sad to have to change yourself but it's worthwhile learning how to because sometimes there's no choice.

 

[MikeyDB]

Sure gender segregation is swell....

Little boys wear blue and little girls wear pink...

If we imagined for a moment that little boys and little girls were human beings first and their genitalia wasn't a defining characteristic of who they were...just imagine...

 

[karrie]

it's sad to have to change yourself but it's worthwhile learning how to because sometimes there's no choice.

My family has encouraged me to pull my son from the school he is currently in, to have him pursue a different form of education due to the difficulties he faced at the beginning of the school year. Most of my family feel he is highly gifted, and bored with the current classroom situation. I've refused however, for exactly the reason you've pointed out.... sometimes we have to learn to be able to fit in. I think that's as important a part of education as the book learning.

But the idea that gender inclusion should apply to all areas of a boys life still seems a little excessive.

 

[m_levesque]

Sure gender segregation is swell....

Little boys wear blue and little girls wear pink...

If we imagined for a moment that little boys and little girls were human beings first and their genitalia wasn't a defining characteristic of who they were...just imagine...

Far too simplistic, and you know it I'm sure.The fact is, boys and girls behave differently and socialize with each other differently. As a boy, the way I beahve with my male friends, the kind of language we used and games we played, would never have been done around the girls, never.

 

[hermanntrude]

definately excessive. Never meeting a girl for the whole of puberty can do bad things to you.

having said that it was probably a good thing for me to be removed froma situtation in which i didnt fit, although that wasnt really about girls, it was about normal people. I was a frustrated and violent little kid, who honestly thought a good response to name calling was to break a window and throw a chair.

 

[Tonington]

Far too simplistic, and you know it I'm sure.The fact is, boys and girls behave differently and socialize with each other differently. As a boy, the way I beahve with my male friends, the kind of language we used and games we played, would never have been done around the girls, never.

But that's just it isn't it. Segregating means pushing that type of interaction back, the sooner they learn how to interact with one another the better.

Edit:
I might add that the context of the interactions doesn't matter so much, whethor or not it is in play groups, team settings, study groups at school, etc. These are situations that prepare them for adult situations.

 

[karrie]

But that's just it isn't it. Segregating means pushing that type of interaction back, the sooner they learn how to interact with one another the better.

Edit:
I might add that the context of the interactions doesn't matter so much, whethor or not it is in play groups, team settings, study groups at school, etc. These are situations that prepare them for adult situations.

So, you'd abolish girls' hockey teams, girl guides, etc.? I know I posed th question to you before... because it seems sometimes to be that only boys are the ones subject to having to be completely gender inclusive.

 

[hermanntrude]

because it seems sometimes to be that only boys are the ones subject to having to be completely gender inclusive.

ive noticed that too. I remember at my primary school, there was a girls' playground, where boys were NOT allowed, but nothing for the boys. This is reactionist I think, adults reacting to their own feelings about male and female.

 

[Tonington]

So, you'd abolish girls' hockey teams, girl guides, etc.? I know I posed th question to you before... because it seems sometimes to be that only boys are the ones subject to having to be completely gender inclusive.

I wouldn't abolish activities based on gender. Sports participation is a little different. As the kids age, the pinnacle of their athletic endevours aren't such a narrow gap when compared to younger ages. At older ages the minor sports are more focussed on athletic ability rather than simple participation. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, but in the teenage years generally the difference in athletic abilities is more pronounced. It's kind of like the difference between playing in a house league and a rep team where the competition is more fierce.

Often times boys and girls would rather play with the same gender anyways, but that's not always possible depending on the number of participants. I never minded having girls on the teams I played on, my minor baseball team won the league championship 7 years in a row. We all played together from a young age, we all went to school together. It was great, and having girls on the team never bothered anyone.

 

[MikeyDB]

Far too simplistic, and you know it I'm sure.The fact is, boys and girls behave differently and socialize with each other differently. As a boy, the way I beahve with my male friends, the kind of language we used and games we played, would never have been done around the girls, never.

Is it simplistic because you subscribe to the necessity for women to have to compete in a "man's-world" where differences in genitalia and upper-body design invites a different kind of perception about who a person is and what that person is "best-suited" to aspire to in life?

Were the Calvanists right, and of course the Roman Catholics...women were created for breeding and they should be rightly conditioned to that attitude as early as possible???

Women are "weaker" so the big strong brave 'man' can use his maleness as currency?