Catholic Discussion

AndyF

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Jan 5, 2007
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Kind of like those losers that lock themselves in their houses all day and night, sitting in front of a computer and that's it. They think that this is the real world but they don't realize that they are hiding from the real world and contact with real people.

The computer is only the means of conveyance, just has a room with chairs set in a circle is a conveyance tool, or even a telephone. What comes from the heart and mind is no different than what comes out of a person at the podium. This is why the computer is not taken trivially by most. I think in most cases the site sets the mood one wishes to be in or expect to find. If you want a party, go to a party site, or a forums light discussion exchange or coffee room. It is similar to walking down a hall and entering the room you wish to enter. If you want a debate or exchange of ideas go to a forum where you can expect the extremes of bursts of humour and rapid messaging down to serious discussion.

Computers helped those who would not normally have an audience. Where once only prominent people or those of expertese received the ears of thousands, anyone can now. We can learn from the marvelous diverse range of intelligent ideas,suggestions and thoughts from those who contribute to forums such has this. :happy11:

AndyF
 

AndyF

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I read that most people create mental images when they pray. I usually don't, although this is probably because I have some fairly extensive issues with visual perception.

But it made me curious...Which ones tend to come to mind? Any special reasons why?

Contemplation and prayer go hand in hand. In particular that specific prayer called the Rosary is a good example of this, where every decade is contemplation of a specific Devine mystery. I find it difficult to remain focused due to allowing my daily problems take over my thoughts, with the help of too much cafeine. :laughing7: I'm still trying to experience and identify contemplation.

They tell me it starts with images, (Don't laugh, I like actual played out scenes, in particular from the movie Jesus of Nazareth.......I said don't laugh!!! Sometimes the occasional portrait of a Michaelangelo will present itself.) and after many years of praying devoutly ends with plains of transcendental rapture, sort of a reward of sticking to it I guess. After years I'm still with the images. :cry: But, I do get the promises and that's what's really cool. Ya gotta love that Lady!.:love9:

AndyF
 

AndyF

Electoral Member
Jan 5, 2007
384
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Kind of like those losers that lock themselves in their houses all day and night, sitting in front of a computer and that's it. They think that this is the real world but they don't realize that they are hiding from the real world and contact with real people.

In a way I think you are right. But is it really a face or a body we converse with? I recall as a child our school had pen clubs and for 2 years I "knew" this person in Peru only in words and an inanimate photo. By his thoughts and experiences I came to know who he was. It is important to have exposure of the presents of a real human being as you say, so a healthy balance is what is important.

AndyF
 
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look3467

Council Member
Dec 13, 2006
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Free? But don't we have to surrender our individuality to become like that? So we do pay a price too, right?

Salvation is a free gift! Bad behavior in this world is not exception!

Surrendering our all to Christ is a result of understanding what the free gift is.

It means crucifying the lusts of the flesh.

What that means is not letting the lusts of the world become our God. Gods can be anything in this world that occupy first place in our lives and placing God a distant second, third and on down the line.

The price we pay is loss of peace, if we choose to live for the world and not God.

But not loss of salvation.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:
 

marygaspe

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Jan 19, 2007
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you can expect the extremes of bursts of humour and rapid messaging down to serious discussion.

Computers helped those who would not normally have an audience. Where once only prominent people or those of expertese received the ears of thousands, anyone can now. We can learn from the marvelous diverse range of intelligent ideas,suggestions and thoughts from those who contribute to forums such has this. :happy11:

AndyF


Yes, true, but I understand what the other person was saying about computer people. I personally am quite amazed at people, even some on this site have admitted this, that are afrqaid of people and spend all their time on this machine. No way on earth you can claim a relationship with people you have not physcially met.
 

marygaspe

Electoral Member
Jan 19, 2007
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Salvation is a free gift! Bad behavior in this world is not exception!

Surrendering our all to Christ is a result of understanding what the free gift is.

It means crucifying the lusts of the flesh.

What that means is not letting the lusts of the world become our God. Gods can be anything in this world that occupy first place in our lives and placing God a distant second, third and on down the line.

The price we pay is loss of peace, if we choose to live for the world and not God.

But not loss of salvation.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

Quite true! and I'm pleased to see you finally wrote something consistent with Christian doctrines!
 

marygaspe

Electoral Member
Jan 19, 2007
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In a way I think you are right. But is it really a face or a body we converse with? I recall as a child our school had pen clubs and for 2 years I "knew" this person in Peru only in words and an inanimate photo. By his thoughts and experiences I came to know who he was. It is important to have exposure of the presents of a real human being as you say, so a healthy balance is what is important.

AndyF

I had a pen-pal years ago. Yes, there is a certain part of a person you can learn about through writing, but let's be honest...that is not really "knowing" the person.
 

marygaspe

Electoral Member
Jan 19, 2007
670
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Contemplation and prayer go hand in hand. In particular that specific prayer called the Rosary is a good example of this, where every decade is contemplation of a specific Devine mystery. I find it difficult to remain focused due to allowing my daily problems take over my thoughts, with the help of too much cafeine. :laughing7: I'm still trying to experience and identify contemplation.

AndyF


The rosary is my favourite set of devotions. When we were little my mother used to make us say the rosary every night before going to bed.I wish I had done this when my childen were younger, in retropsect.
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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Do Not Grumble, My Brothers

A homily by Fr Phil Bloom

One of the sins the Bible singles out for condemnation is grumbling. This might surprise us, especially today when complaining has become such a standard part of our lives. In fact, many people consider criticism to actually be a virtue, "After all, how will things get better if I do not point out what is wrong?" There may be some truth in that, but still we have to face the fact that the Scriptures are quite harsh against grumblers.
It was grumbling which brought God's wrath on the people of the Old Testament when they were in the desert. With our typical ability to forget the bad and remember the good, they longed for their old life in Egypt. They forgot the forced labor and only thought of the rich foods. They complained to Moses, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in this wilderness?...we loathe this worthless food." (Num. 21:5) We perhaps smile when we hear this because it has a familiar ring.
It is common enough to complain, but at a certain point it becomes destructive. That is why James warns us today, "Do not grumble against one another, my brothers." And he adds something which should make us stop and think, "lest you be condemned." In other words, the standard used for our personal judgment will be the words we use in judging our fellows. You can picture judgment day as follows: A video replay of you or me complaining sarcastically about something some other guy has done. "Imagine the nerve of that jerk. What a two-faced, lazy, lying bum!" Then follows a second video of me doing what I have condemned--or worse.
Do not grumble, my brothers, lest you be condemned. What is the alternative to complaining? The readings this Sunday suggest a couple of things. First, patience. "Be patient...see how the farmer waits..." (James 5:7) A third century Church father named Tertullian considered patience to be the supreme Christian virtue. He knew its importance because he himself was the most restless of men. He became so fed up with the slowness and sinfulness of the Church, that he wound up joining a rigoristic, millenarian sect. But while he was a Catholic he wrote movingly about the importance of patience. He pointed out how it involves denying some immediate gratification for the sake of a greater good. That is the heart of daily Christian living.
Let me give an example of patience. I knew a man who was sick of his job, especially the way his boss treated him. He felt unappreciated, used. One day he made up his mind he was going to tell his boss just what he thought of him and what he could do with the job. He daydreamed about how great he would feel letting him have it, then walking out, slamming the door behind him. Just as he was ready to go in another thought struck him. He remembered his wife, his children, the fact he had no other job to fall back on. He sacrificed his immediate gratification for the sake of a greater good. That is what is called patience. It does not mean we become the world's doormats. But it does mean we take seriously Jesus' words, "Whoever wishes to be my disciple must take up his cross every day and follow me."
Patience often involves restraining our tongue. Someone observed, "If you keep your mouth shut, no one will ask you to explain what you said." There is of course a time to speak up, but most of have more regrets about the things we have said than about those we didn't. Patience is the operative virtue here.
Besides patience we are called to seek another virtue--or to put it better, another gift. It is joy. This Sunday we lit the third candle of our Advent wreath. Its rose color symbolizes rejoicing. The first reading tell of a joy which will make sorrow and mourning flee. (Is 35:10) We need that especially this time of year--not just because of the short, rainy days, but also because the emptiness of our consumer society can make us feel sad. You know, it is geared for just that. People buy unnecessary things because they feel sad--and think that some purchase will pick them up. It is a trap like alcohol or sex--some immediate stimulation followed by a let-down. Joy is the opposite: a temporary suffering followed by peace.
A beautiful example of joy is someone whom Pope John Paul recently beatified. We know him as Juan Diego, the name he received when he was baptized. He was a widower, 58 years old, who had been married to a woman called Mar�a Luc�a. Their deep sadness was that they had no children. Juan Diego dedicated himself to caring for his sick uncle Juan Bernardino. When he went to seek help for his uncle, the Virgin Mary appeared to him and left her image on his tilma or cloak. That of course was a singular joy. But I would like to focus on what he did afterwards. He first step was to divest himself of what little property he had. He gave his small plot of land to his uncle and went to live in a room next to the chapel where the tilma was displayed. He stayed there for the rest of his life--almost seventeen years till his death on May 30, 1584. You can imagine children coming to this childless man to hear about the Lady. When he was not telling what happened, he was in prayer. He went to confession regularly and attended daily Mass. He obtained a special permission to receive communion three times a week, something rare at that time.
Besides all that he had a great joy--one which you and I can also have. He meditated on the lovely gift of Jesus before he died--he gave us his own mother. (Jn 19:27) Juan Diego contemplated her image on the tilma. The black ribbon under her folded hands indicates she is pregnant. The child within her is of course Jesus whom she bring to the people of this continent--and to you and me. He is the font of all patience--and all rejoicing.
************
 

sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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Love


Peter J. Kreeft

Without qualification, without ifs, ands, or buts, God's word tells us, straight as a left jab, that love is the greatest thing there is (1 Cor 13: 13). Scripture never says God is justice or beauty or righteousness, though he is just and beautiful and righteous. But "God is love" (1 Jn 4:8). Love is God's essence, his whole being. Everything in him is love. Even his justice is love. Paul identifies "the justice of God" in Romans 1:17 with the most unjust event in all history, deicide, the crucifixion, for that was God's great act of love.
But no word is more misunderstood in our society than the word love. One of the most useful books we can read is C. S. Lewis' unpretentious little masterpiece The Four Loves. There, he clearly distinguishes agape, the kind of love Christ taught and showed, from storge (natural affection or liking), eros (sexual desire), and philia (friendship). It is agape that is the greatest thing in the world.
The old word for agape in English was charity. Unfortunately, that word now means to most people simply handouts to beggars or to the United Fund. But the word love won't do either. It means to most people either sexual love (eros) or a feeling of affection (storge), or a vague love-in-general. Perhaps it is necessary to insist on the Greek word agape (pronounced ah-gah-pay) even at the risk of sounding snobbish or scholarly, so that we do not confuse this most important thing in the world with something else and miss it, for there is enormous misunderstanding about it in our society.


The first and most usual misunderstanding of agape is to confuse it with a feeling. Our feelings are precious, but agape is more precious. Feelings come to us, passively; agape comes from us, actively, by our free choice. We are not responsible for our feelings-we can't help how we feel-but we are responsible for our agape or lack of it, eternally responsible, for agape comes from us; feelings come from wind, weather, and digestion. "Luv" comes from spring breezes; real love comes from the center of the soul, which Scripture calls the heart (another word we have sentimentalized and reduced to feeling). Liking is a feeling. But love (agape) is more than strong liking. Only a fool would command someone to feel a certain way. God commands us to love, and God is no fool.
Jesus had different feelings toward different people. But he loved them all equally and absolutely. But how can we love someone if we don't like him? Easy-we do it to ourselves all the time. We don't always have tender, comfortable feelings about ourselves; sometimes we feel foolish, stupid, asinine, or wicked. But we always love ourselves: we always seek our own good. Indeed, we feel dislike toward ourselves, we berate ourselves, precisely because we love ourselves; because we care about our good, we are impatient with our bad.
We fall in love but we do not fall in agape. We rise in agape.
God is agape, and agape is not feeling. So God is not feeling. That does not make him or agape cold and abstract. Just the opposite: God is love itself, feeling is the dribs and drabs of love received into the medium of passivity. God cannot fall in love for the same reason water cannot get wet: it is wet. Love itself cannot receive love as a passivity, only spread it as an activity. God is love in action, not love in dreams. Feelings are like dreams: easy, passive, spontaneous. Agape is hard and precious like a diamond.



This brings us to a second and related misunderstanding. Agape's object is always the concrete individual, not some abstraction called humanity. Love of humanity is easy because humanity does not surprise you with inconvenient demands. You never find humanity on your doorstep, stinking and begging.
Jesus commands us to love not humanity but our neighbor, all our neighbors, the real individuals we meet, just as he did. He died for me and for you, not for humanity. The Cross has our names on it, not the name "humanity". When Jesus called himself the Good Shepherd, he said he "calls his own sheep by name" (Jn 10:3). The gospel comes to you not in a newspaper with a Xeroxed label, "Dear Occupant", but in a handwritten envelope personally addressed to you, as a love letter from God to you alone. One of the saints says that Jesus would have done everything he did and suffered everything he suffered even if you were the only person who had sinned, just for you. More than that, he did! This is no " if" ; this is fact. His loving eyes saw you from the Cross. Each of his five wounds were lips speaking your name.



A third, related, misunderstanding about love is to confuse it with kindness, which is only one of its usual attributes. Kindness is the desire to relieve another's suffering. Love is the willing of another's good. A father can spank his child out of love. And God is a father.
It is painfully obvious that God is not mere kindness, for he does not remove all suffering, though he has the power to do so. Indeed, this very fact-that the God who is omnipotent and can at any instant miraculously erase all suffering from this world deliberately chooses not to do so-is the commonest argument unbelievers use against him. The number one argument for atheism stems from the confusion between love and kindness.
The more we love someone, the more our love goes beyond kindness. We are merely kind to pets, and therefore we consent that our pets be put to death "to put them out of their misery" when they are suffering. There is increasing pressure in America to legalize euthenasia (so far only Nazi Germany and now Holland have ever legalized euthenasia), and this evil too stems from the confusion between love and kindness. We are kind to strangers but demanding of those we love. If a stranger informed you that he was a drug addict, you would probably try to reason with him in a kind and gentle way; but if your son or daughter said that to you, you would probably do a lot of shouting and screaming.
Grandfathers are kind; fathers are loving. Grandfathers say, "Run along and have a good time"; fathers say , "But don't do this or that." Grandfathers are compassionate, fathers are passionate. God is never once called our grandfather, much as we would prefer that to the inconveniently close, demanding, intimate father who loves us. The most frequently heard saying in our lives is precisely the philosophy of a grandfather: "Have a nice day." Many priests even sanctify this philosophy by ending the Mass with it, though the Mass is supposed to be the worship of the Father, not the Grandfather.



A fourth misunderstanding about love is the confusion between "God is love" and "love is God." The worship of love instead of the worship of God involves two deadly mistakes. First it uses the word God only as another word for love. God is thought of as a force or energy rather than as a person. Second, it divinizes the love we already know instead of showing us a love we don't know. To understand this point, consider that "A is B" does not mean the same as "A equals B." If A = B, then B = A, but if A is B, that does not mean that B is A. "That house is wood" does not mean "wood is that house." "An angel is spirit" does not mean the same as "spirit is an angel." When we say "A is B", we begin with a subject, A, that we assume our hearer already knows, and then we add a new predicate to it. "Mother is sick" means "You know mother well, let me tell you something you don't know about her: she's sick." So "God is love" means "Let me tell you something new about the God you know: he is essential love, made of love, through and through." But "Love is God" means "Let me tell you something about the love you already know, your own human love: that is God. That is the ultimate reality. That is as far as anything can ever go. Seek no further for God." In other words, "God is love" is the profoundest thing we have ever heard. But "love is God" is deadly nonsense.



A fifth misunderstanding about love is the idea that you can be in love with love. No, you cannot, any more than you can have faith in faith, or hope in hope, or see sight. Love is an act, a force, or an energy, but persons are more than that. What we love with agape can only be a person, the realest thing there is, because a person is the image of God, who is ultimate reality, and God's name is I Am, the name for a person. If anyone says they are in love with love, that love is not agape but a feeling.



A sixth misunderstanding about love is the idea that "God is love" is unrelated to dogmatic theology, especially to the doctrine of the Trinity. Everyone can agree that "God is love", it seems, but the Trinity is a tangled dogma for an esoteric elite, isn't it? No. If God is not a Trinity, God is not love. For love requires three things: a lover, a beloved, and a relationship between them. If God were only one person, he could be a lover, but not love itself. The Father loves the Son and the Son loves the Father, and the Spirit is the love proceeding from both, from all eternity. If that were not so, then God would need us, would be incomplete without us, without someone to love. Then his creating us would not be wholly unselfish, but selfish, from his own need.
Love is a flower, and hope is its stem. Salvation is the whole plant. God's grace, God's own life, comes into us by faith, like water through a tree's roots. It rises in us by hope, like sap through the trunk. And it flowers from our branches, fruit for our neighbor's use.
Faith is like an anchor. That's why it must be conservative, even a stick-in-the-mud, like an anchor. Faith must be faithful. Hope is like a compass or a navigator. It gives us direction, and it takes its bearings from the stars. That's why it must be progressive and forward-looking. Love is like the sail, spread to the wind. It is the actual energy of our journey. That's why it must be liberal, open to the Spirit's wind, generous.
Agape is totally defenseless against an objection like Freud's: "But not all men are worthy of love." No, they are not. Love goes beyond worth, beyond justice, beyond reason. Reasons are always given from above downward, and there is nothing above love, for God is love. When he was about six, my son asked me, "Daddy, why do you love me?" I began to give the wrong answers, the answers I thought he was looking for: "You're a great kid. You're good and smart and strong." Then, seeing his disappointment, I decided to be honest: "Aw, I just love you because you're mine." I got a smile of relief and a hug: "Thanks, Daddy." A student once asked me in class, "Why does God love us so much?" I replied that that was the greatest of all mysteries, and she should come back to me in a year to see whether I had solved it. One year later to the day, there she was. She was serious. She really wanted an answer. I had to explain that this one thing, at least, just could not be explained.



Finally, there is the equally mind-boggling mystery of the intrinsic paradox of agape: somehow in agape you give yourself away, not just your time or work or possessions or even your body. You put yourself in your own hands and hand it over to another. And when you do this unthinkable thing, another unthinkable thing happens: you find yourself in losing yourself. You begin to be when you give yourself away. You find that a new and more real self has somehow been given to you. When you are a donor you mysteriously find yourself a recipient-of the very gift you gave away.
There is more: nothing else is really yours. Your health, your works, your intelligence, your possessions-these are not what they seem. They are all hostage to fortune, on loan, insubstantial. You discover that when you learn who God is. Face to face with God in prayer, not just a proper concept of God, you find that you are nothing. All the saints say this: you are nothing. The closer you get to God the more you see this, the more you shrink in size. If you scorn God, you think you're a big shot, a cannonball; if you know God, you know you're not even buckshot. Those who scorn God think they're number one. Those who have the popular idea of God think they're "good people". Those who have a merely mental orthodoxy know they're real but finite creatures, made in God's image but flawed by sin. Those who really begin to pray find that compared with God they are motes of dust in the sun. Finally, the saints say they are nothing. Or else (Saint Paul's words) "the chief of sinners". Sinners think they're saints and saints think they're sinners.
Who's right? How shall we evaluate this insight? Unless God is the Father of lies (the ultimate blasphemy), the saints are right. Unless the closer you get to God the wronger you are about yourself, the five groups in the preceding paragraph (from scorners to saints) form a hierarchy of insight. Nothing is ours by nature. Our very existence is sheer gift. Think for a moment about the fact that you were created, made out of nothing. If a sculptor gives a block of marble the gift of a fine shape, the shape is a gift, but the marble's existence is not. That is the marble's own. But nothing is our own because we were made out of nothing. Our very existence is a gift from God to no one, for we were not there before he created us. There is no receiver of the gift distinct from the gift itself. We are God's gifts.
So the saints are right. If I am nothing, nothing that is mine is anything. Nothing is mine by nature. But one thing is mine by my free choice: the self I give away in love. That is the thing even God cannot do for me. It is my choice. Everything I say is mine is not. But everything I say is yours is mine. C. S. Lewis, asked which of his many library books he thought he would have in heaven, replied, "Only the ones I gave away on earth and never got back". The same is true of our very self. It is like a ball in a game of catch: throw it and it will come back to you; hold onto it and that ends the game.


 

AndyF

Electoral Member
Jan 5, 2007
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God commands us to love.


Ref: NewAdvent.org/Predestination

Even in the scene where 2 souls are created prior to conception.? One is priori predestined to the elect, the other to the reprobation. The question arises, why should the reprobate be expected at the onset of existance to love the elect to the same degree.? It would appear that it would be more of a trial for the reprobate than the elect.

To clarify, I guess what I'm saying is how does this blanket love that in this stage exits among all his potential beings, reconcile with his reprobation of certain individuals. If the odds are stacked against this person at the starting line, then why create him.? Is this another example of God's inscrutable justice.?

AndyF
 
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sanctus

The Padre
Oct 27, 2006
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The Virtue Of Justice



By Father Paul A. Duffner, O.P. Man, by his very nature, is a social being. In living out his life he tends to be in contact with and dependent on other fellow humans. This contact and dependence will involve many relationships with others which necessitate the recognition of rights and obligations that must be protected and regulated, if man is to live in peace and harmony with his fellow men. The virtue that controls and regulates man’s dealing with others in this regard is the virtue of justice. This virtue is as wide in its scope as the extent of human activities, and as varied in its application as human life itself. Adequate treatment of this virtue would fill huge volumes, so this can be but the briefest summary.
WHAT IS JUSTICE?

St. Thomas Aquinas defines the virtue of justice as a constant and perpetual will to render to everyone his due. (II II, 58,1) From that definition we can see that it is a virtue that resides in the will and regulates those duties which we are strictly bound to discharge towards our neighbor. For this reason the habitual practice of justice - the constant rendering to others their due - is an excellent training of the will, for it brings the will under the guidance of reason enlightened by faith instead of our self-seeking inclinations. And on the contrary, one who is dominated by egoism and self-will will often fail to render to others their due.
Being a virtue of the will, in this justice differs from the other moral virtues, for prudence is a virtue of the intellect, and fortitude and temperance regulate the sense appetites and passions. And while the theological virtue of charity also perfects the will and regulates our dealing with others, it differs from justice in that it bids us to regard others as brothers and sisters in Christ, and inclines us to render them services that are not required by strict justice. Since, however, we are looking at justice from the viewpoint of the Christian life, we will see that without charity and the infused virtue of justice - human nature being what it is - one will fail often to fulfill the obligations of this virtue. Finally, the obligations imposed by this virtue are always directed to somebody else, not toward self. In this it differs from the moral virtues of fortitude and temperance which have to do with the control of our inner life, our emotions, our appetites and desires, our fears.
In the discussion of the virtue of prudence in the previous issue, we pointed out the interdependence of the acquired and infused virtues. All that was said in that regard applies to all the moral virtues (prudence, justice, fortitude and temperance), so we state again that the acquired virtue of justice is at the service of the infused virtue facilitating its exercise by keeping in check our egoism, while the gift of grace and the infused virtues lifts our activity to the supernatural and meritorious level.
RIGHTS AND OBLIGATIONS

Wherever there is a right, there is a corresponding obligation. For example: I have rights which my neighbor has an obligation to respect; and my neighbor has rights which I have an obligation to respect. So rights and obligations go hand-in-hand. Unfortunately, however, there are countless persons in today’s society whose rights are being disregarded.
Since the virtue of justice has to do with “rights” and the obligations that flow from them, it is important to know the source of those rights. For our purpose we can distinguish various kinds of rights. There are natural rights which flow from the very nature of man. The ultimate foundation of human right is God, who created man as a spiritual and immortal being with an eternal destiny. The founding fathers of our country were aware of this, for we read in the Declaration of Independence, which is the foundation of our American system:
  • “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men were created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men . . ."
However, if a person does not admit the existence of God and the spirituality and immortality of the soul, such a one cannot logically admit that there are any real “inalienable rights.” For such a person the source of rights is the state, and what the state grants, it can take away. And that, our beloved (once-Christian) country is gradually doing. Notice the irony of the turn of events. “To secure these rights,” says the Declaration of Independence, “governments are instituted among men.” And yet, it is our very government that has taken away the most fundamental of human rights, the right to life of the unborn.
In addition to natural rights, there are those which spring from mutual consent, as in contracts; and there are rights which public authority can establish in the form of laws which we will briefly consider below.
One major problem in regard to the matter of justice is that so many people seem only concerned about the rights they have in justice, and not the obligations it imposes on them. The true Christian, knowing his innate tendency to self-seeking and wishful thinking, will try to counter these tendencies by trying to be more concerned about his obligations to others. He knows that the more he is just in dealing with others, the more God’s justice will be tempered by His mercy in dealing with him.
KINDS OF JUSTICE

Justice, as we saw, has to do with two parties, each rendering the other his due. But several possible combinations can exist between two parties, which gives rise to several kinds of justice.
  1. Commutative justice - which inclines one individual to render to another individual (or group which constitutes a moral person) what is strictly due.
  2. Legal justice - which inclines one to render what is due to society, i.e. the whole community. These obligations are satisfied by observing civil laws.
  3. Distributive justice - inclines society or the whole community to render what is due to individual members of that society or community.
The aim of justice is to establish some kind of equality, or just balance or proportion between the parties involved. This, as we will see, will differ in the different kinds of justice.
A) Commutative Justice: (person to person) The purpose of commutative justice is to preserve equality of rights between individuals, e.g. between the value of an item purchased and the price paid for it, or between the wage paid by the employer and the work done by the employee, etc. A special characteristic of commutative justice is the obligation of making restitution when the rights of one has been violated. That restitution may involved the returning of something stolen (or if not possible, its value), the repair or restoration of something damaged or destroyed, compensation for an injury that has been unjustly inflicted, etc. The following are some examples of infractions against this virtue:
1) By deeds:Human life is man’s greatest gift in the natural order. To deprive one of that gift without a just cause is truly a grave sin of injustice, for which no adequate restitution can be made.

Besides life itself, another bodily good that can be taken away is bodily integrity, the right to which one can be deprived of by mutilation, wounding, or destruction of bodily functions (e.g. sterilization without medical necessity), all of which would be gravely sinful.

Not only are theft and destruction of property an infraction of one’s right to his own possessions, but also against that right are the culpable non-payment of debts, and the non-returning of borrowed items (or the excessive unnecessary delay in these matters). If one is in debt, some of the money he may have is strictly not his since it is owed to another. Hence, it would be against justice for such a one to spend money on luxuries while keeping another waiting for repayment of what belongs to him.
2) By words:Some common ways of offending against one’s right to his good name are: revealing one’s hidden faults, speaking ill of another behind his back, spreading falsehoods about another or exaggerating his faults, imputing evil intentions to one’s good deeds, etc. All such actions involve grave matter for they blacken one’s good name. The gravity of such sins depends on the harm done and the intention of the speaker. Although justice demands that restitution be made in such cases in whatever way one can, the damage done in these cases can never be completely repaired; for even retractions, or apologies, or having the accusation “struck from the record” do not completely erase the stain from the memory of some. And yet, how freely and thoughtlessly do some people at times reveal damaging information about another only adding to the misfortune of the one at fault.
3) In business:Numerous are the ways in which justice can be violated in the business world. To mention a few: fraud in business contracts or in billing, not revealing defects in an item sold, deceiving another as to the quality of an item sold, demanding excessive prices without sufficient reason, etc. B) LEGAL JUSTICE (Social Justice) aims immediately at the common good of society, and brings about the establishment of just laws and ordinances. It inclines those who govern to establish just laws to promote the common good, and disposes all citizens to observe perfectly the laws and constitutions of the society to which they belong. It disposes members of society to devote themselves generously to the common good, and if necessary, to sacrifice time and personal convenience to that end. We receive much from society, and to it we are indebted. The true Christian is aware of the many ways he benefits from the common good, and does what he can to promote and maintain it. When one’s concern about the common good is motivated by Christian charity, it is a building up of the Mystical Body of Christ.
As Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P. points out “the equity (Latin - epikeia) that legal justice establishes considers not only the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law, and that not only of civil laws, but of all those that govern Christian conduct. . . . It is attentive not only to the letter of the law, but especially to its spirit, to the intention of the legislator. As it considers chiefly the spirit of laws, it does not interpret them with excessive rigor, in a mechanical or material manner, but with a superior understanding, especially in certain special circumstances in which, according to the intention of the legislator, it would not be advisable to apply the letter of the law. . . .” (Three Ages, II, 91,94; St. Thos. II II,120,2) Such an interpretation, however, of the mind of the legislator applies only to human laws, and never to obligations of divine or natural law - forbidding such actions as the use of contraceptives, divorce, premarital sex, or anything forbidden by the ten commandments.
(NOTE: Moralists point out that the use of epikeia is both useful and dangerous. It is useful if rightly used, for it liberates one from the letter of the law in certain rare situations not foreseen by the legislator; but it is dangerous, for it rests on the judgment of the individual, which is prone to decide in his own favor to the detriment of the common good as well as of self.)
We must be careful of the word “legal” in our day, for there are certain actions which are legal by civil law, but which are condemned by divine law, and are destructive of the common good, such as abortion and divorce. The former deprives the unborn of the right to life, and the latter destroys the family which is the foundation of society. There is abundant proof from history that a general corruption of morals is a form of national suicide.
C) DISTRIBUTIVE JUSTICE: While legal justice, as we saw, inclines the individual to fulfill his duties to the state or community for the common good, distributive justice inclines those who govern the state or community to distribute public benefits and burdens among its members according to the merit, ability and needs of each citizen or group. Among those burdens the state can impose are taxes and military service. Violations of distributive justice would be the distribution of public benefits or the imposition of public burdens through discrimination or favoritism, that is, not based on merits and true needs, but singling out one less qualified because of friendship, family ties, bribes, in return for favors, etc.
While the fair and just regulation of rights of commutative justice is according to equality, the rule which governs the bestowing of benefits and burdens of distributive justice is proportional. For example, the taxes imposed on a rich man and a poor man are not equal, but in proportion to their income, material possessions, etc. Again, by way of contrast, while legal justice is concerned about the obligations of the individual citizen to the state, distributive justice is concerned about the obligations of the state to the individual citizen. Because the decisions of those who govern affect the welfare of so many individuals and of the state as a whole, we should pray fervently for those in office, that they may faithfully and justly fulfill their important duties.
JUSTICE AND CHARITY

As we have seen, while justice inclines one to respect the rights of others, charity goes beyond respect for those rights; for example, it inclines one to share through almsgiving, forgiving offenses and other works of mercy. It inclines us to love our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God, the result being, says St. Thomas, that “we wish to fulfill our neighbor’s will as though it were our own.” (II II, 29,3)
Thus in the settlement of disputes, while justice may accomplish the restoration of rights, it will not of itself restore peace. In this regard the Angelic Doctor states:
  • “Peace is the work of justice indirectly, insofar as it removes the obstacles to peace; but it is the work of charity directly, since charity, according to its very nature causes peace; for love is a unitive force. . . .” (ibid. ad3)
Time and again Pope John Paul II has stressed in his messages to the world that justice, while essential for peace, is not enough.
  • “The experience of the past and of our own time demonstrates that justice alone is not enough, that it can lead to the negation and destruction of itself, if that deeper power, which is love, is not allowed to shape human life in its various dimensions.” (Dives in Misericordia)
  • “Justice will never be fully attained unless people see in the poor person, who is asking for help to survive, not an annoyance or burden, but an opportunity for showing kindness and a chance for greater enrichment.” (Centesimus Annus)
  • “Society will become ever more human only when we introduce into all moral relationships . . . the moment of forgiveness, which is so much the message of the gospel. Forgiveness demonstrates the presence in the world of the love which is more powerful than sin. Forgiveness is also the fundamental condition of reconciliation. . . . A world in which forgiveness was eliminated would be nothing but a world of cold and unfeeling justice, in the name of which each person would claim his or her own rights vis-a-vis others. The various kinds of selfishness latent in man would transform life and human society into a system of oppression of the weak by the strong, or into an arena of permanent strife between one group and another.” (Dives in Misericordia)
From the above it is clear that true justice will never be attained in this vale of tears if one is concerned about justice alone. Whereas, “He who pursues justice and mercy will find life, justice and glory.” (Prov. 21:21)
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
I really like this part...

"Being a virtue of the will, in this justice differs from the other moral virtues, for prudence is a virtue of the intellect, and fortitude and temperance regulate the sense appetites and passions."

Is it prudent to post inflammartory articles, that beget intolerance?
Is temperance being portrayed when other religions are debased and blamed for the rise of nazism?
 

westmanguy

Council Member
Feb 3, 2007
1,651
18
38
The corruption of the organized church

I am a believer in the Bible, but after years of chaos, in multiple churches, I have come to the decsision in my life, I will not attend an organized church on a weekly basis. I still go to Easter and Christmas services, but, I find the priest and the deacons and other members are very corrupt, and not very Christian at all.

I don't fall under any denomination, I am a believer in the Bible, and don't answer to anyone else but God.

There is a growing number of people, I find, who are believers but have given up on "The Church"

Wondering if anyone else has seen this corruption and have done what I have done.

Now atheists, use the declining church enrollment to their advantage, when we know that its people who are sick of the corrupt church, and only want to stand to the Bible and God.

Thoughts?
 

marygaspe

Electoral Member
Jan 19, 2007
670
11
18
75
I am a believer in the Bible, but after years of chaos, in multiple churches, I have come to the decsision in my life, I will not attend an organized church on a weekly basis. I still go to Easter and Christmas services, but, I find the priest and the deacons and other members are very corrupt, and not very Christian at all.

I don't fall under any denomination, I am a believer in the Bible, and don't answer to anyone else but God.

There is a growing number of people, I find, who are believers but have given up on "The Church"

Wondering if anyone else has seen this corruption and have done what I have done.

Now atheists, use the declining church enrollment to their advantage, when we know that its people who are sick of the corrupt church, and only want to stand to the Bible and God.

Thoughts?

My only thought is I wish Sanctus was around right now--this would be interesting!
 

tamarin

House Member
Jun 12, 2006
3,197
22
38
Oshawa ON
All organizations are corrupt. The very fact you must bring together a group of people to form one instantly opens the door to abuse and mismanagement. Fraud and all its related cousins appear daily in the press and the organizations covered are legion. Don't take it out on the church. It is, as we all are, a product of our time.
 

m_levesque

Electoral Member
Dec 18, 2006
524
10
18
Montreal, Quebec
I am a believer in the Bible, but after years of chaos, in multiple churches, I have come to the decsision in my life, I will not attend an organized church on a weekly basis. I still go to Easter and Christmas services, but, I find the priest and the deacons and other members are very corrupt, and not very Christian at all.

I don't fall under any denomination, I am a believer in the Bible, and don't answer to anyone else but God.

There is a growing number of people, I find, who are believers but have given up on "The Church"

Wondering if anyone else has seen this corruption and have done what I have done.

Now atheists, use the declining church enrollment to their advantage, when we know that its people who are sick of the corrupt church, and only want to stand to the Bible and God.

Thoughts?

Two friends were talking in front of a fire, talking about this very topic. One argued that he did not need fellowship because he was strong enough without it; the other of course believed the Church going buddy and said: That is you. Without fellowship and strength it is impossible to mantain a healthy relationship with the Lord. Without the support of the other coals burning, you will cool and lose faith.

So, I say, the Church is necessary (as is stated numerous times in the Bible) because without it a healthy relationship with God cannot be had. Moreover, unlike a single man who is guided by the corruption of their own wants and desires, the Church is not blinded by such and seeks what is desired by God. was necessary. As they spoke an ember popped out of the fire. They both watched it slowly die and become cool. The friend then turned to his non
 

gc

Electoral Member
May 9, 2006
931
20
18

So, I say, the Church is necessary (as is stated numerous times in the Bible) because without it a healthy relationship with God cannot be had.

Matthew 6:5-6
Matthew 6:5-6 said:
5 And when ye pray, ye shall not be as hypocrites, that love to pray standing in synagogues and [in] corners of streets, to be seen of men [that they be seen of men]; truly I say to you, they have received their meed.
6 But when thou shalt pray, enter into thy bedchamber, and when the door is shut, pray thy Father in huddles, and thy Father that seeth in huddles, shall yield to thee.