Canadian Immigration

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Immigration

Capitalism is not linked to freedom though. It has no record of that throughout history. In fact capitalism, when left to run its own course, leads to a lack of freedom for the majority of people. That is why Marx wrote what he did...he'd learned the lessons of history.

Now I'm not a Marxist, and I don't share his vision of utopia, but I do think that's where we'll end up if we don't stop equating capitalism with freedom. A backlash from an ever-expanding underclass is inevitable at some point.

To tie that back into immigration.... Giving people who come here the opportunity to advance by offering them something in return is what allowed this country to prosper in the first place.

My ancestors came here for the land. They got it on the condition that they had to farm it. It worked. Canada needed farmers at that point and those farmers' children moved into other walks of life. Encouraging present-day immigrants in the same way by paying for their tuition will achieve much the same thing.

They have the freedom to accept the offer or not. They can leave and assume the debt that they were supposed to pay off by working in a small town. They can have their freedom.

What we are currently encouraging is capitalism. Immigrants require a certain amount of money to move here. They have to be trained in certain areas. They have to have jobs lined up or somebody willing to sponsor them. What it comes down to is that all we want is their money. My ancestors, and most Canadians' ancestors, would never have been able to move to Canada under the present conditions. That's capitalism.

 

[Shiva]

Re: Immigration

You don't understand the fundamental idea behind your arguement.

If an immigrant or any Canadian has the choice between a good paying job and a bad paying job, they should be allowed to take the good one.

If you are forcing someone to live somewhere, that means they don't want to live there. That means they could have gotten a better job somewhere else.

If an immigrant had a choice between being a taxi driver in Toronto or a Doctor somewhere else, I think they would become the doctor in the small town......

When you use the idea of "force" it means that they don't want to live there. Force means they have to give up, or sacrifice something. It means they have to take a job they don't want.

If there are in fact good jobs in these places, tell the immigrants about them and they will want to go there.....

The problem is there are no good jobs there. People who grow up there have to leave because they need to make money to be able to eat!

You think immigrants should have to live on less money than "normal" Canadians. That's what I'm getting from your arguement.

I think you've misunderstood the purpose of my post. I was throwing out an idea for discussion not because I thought in the end it would absolutely have to be the way things go, but because I was hoping to spark debate on how to achieve a better system. I was expecting that others would criticise it, naturally, but also that others would share their ideas. I suppose that's why I've been frustrated with your approach all along, but it seems like it was a matter of miscommunication. Anyway, I acknowledge the shortcomings of my argument, but it was only a starting point, and I think that Rev Blair has offered up a handy compromise that addresses the point I was trying to make, and also addresses your concerns. Now if the gov't would hear it!

I want to point out what the typical immigrant experience is because I think many born Canadians aren't aware of what it's like. It will point out why I've been so forceful that something has to be done. It goes something like this:

An immigrant shows interest in moving to Canada, finds out the requirements, pay huge fees to lawyers to handle the process, has an interview (where his/her professional degree and experience are instrumental in allowing him/her to come to Canada) and then s/he eventually gets landed immigrant status (after showing s/he has a certain amount of money in the bank to sustain him/herself). S/he is then told you have valuable skills needed in Canada and that you should have an easy time finding work in your field as there are shortages of workers in your field. Then, once s/he get to Canada, they find out that their degree is not recognised, they can't work in their field here, and they're stuck taking any job they can to make ends meet. On top of that, if they want to work in their field here they have to go back to school, many times after being a successful doctor or engineer who's been practising for 15, 20 yrs. It adds insult to injury, and the gov't doesn't do much to support these people in being successful in their field after convincing them to come here and go through a difficult process to make it. The whole system has to be overhauled becuase it is inherently unfair at this point. All of this information should be told up front if the gov't is working in good faith, and that it does not tell immigrants this causes them to (rightly?) conclude that they were purposely duped into coming to Canada by the Canadian gov't to work jobs Canadians don't want to do. This is a very typical immigrant experience, and while we all may differ on how to solve the problem, I think it's no question that there is a problem.

 

[Ted]

Re: Immigration

An immigrant shows interest in moving to Canada, finds out the requirements, pay huge fees to lawyers to handle the process, has an interview (where his/her professional degree and experience are instrumental in allowing him/her to come to Canada) and then s/he eventually gets landed immigrant status (after showing s/he has a certain amount of money in the bank to sustain him/herself). S/he is then told you have valuable skills needed in Canada and that you should have an easy time finding work in your field as there are shortages of workers in your field. Then, once s/he get to Canada, they find out that their degree is not recognised, they can't work in their field here, and they're stuck taking any job they can to make ends meet

Or, a person comes with their family and makes a bogus refugee claim. In many provinces, Legal aid will pay for a lawyer and an interpreter to prepare the bogus case. They are covered by Interim Federal Health until their case is heard by the refugee board. They are entitled to welfare benefits and they can apply for a work permit. The children can go to school for free. A lot of them end up working at non union construction sites, and are paid low wages, no benefits and they feel like they were touched by an angel. Some do janitorial work and are paid under the table, while also collecting welfare. Some come to ply their wares at Main and Hastings, and they collect welfare. Every time they get busted, we pay the court and legal costs. This whole mess has made it near impossible for a person with a valid refugee claim to win their case.

My point is that we are encouraging the wrong kind of immigrants and for the wrong reasons, and the kind of immigrants that made this country what it is have the system stacked against them. The honest professionals end up driving cabs, the hardworking family man works 12 hour days for 10 dollars an hour, and employers have a steady supply of people willing to work for less so that they can make more in profits.

I keep hearing that we need immigrants to fill jobs. I disagree. There are jobs, but they don't pay enough for a Canadian to raise a family on. I think it is time that we closed our borders and concentrated on providing for our citizens first, and dealing with the enormous backlog of applications for sponsorship of family members and family reunification. Once we have done that, then we can establish a workable immigration policy. One of the biggest mistakes in recent years is that the assumption is that anyone with lots of money is the kind of person Canada wants.

And if you think I am being racist, think again. I have worked in this area and it makes me sick the way things have ended up. Good honest people get deported every day, while others that know how to use the system get a free ride.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Re: Immigration

Or, a person comes with their family and makes a bogus refugee claim.

Do have any numbers on that, Ted. What percentage of refugees are "bogus"?

In many provinces, Legal aid will pay for a lawyer and an interpreter to prepare the bogus case.

Again, Ted...fact, figures, numbers. What percentage are "bogus"? How much does legal aid pay out? Does simply being turned down, even if it's for something stupid like the safe third country law, constitute making a claim "bogus"? If so, why? Since Canada has signed international agreements stating that we will not return people to countries where they will be killed, tortured or persecuted are any claims where there is a dispute as to whether those actions will take place "bogus"?

Do you understand the difference between a refugee and an immigrant? Do you understand the requirements for each?

I keep hearing that we need immigrants to fill jobs. I disagree. There are jobs, but they don't pay enough for a Canadian to raise a family on. I think it is time that we closed our borders and concentrated on providing for our citizens first, and dealing with the enormous backlog of applications for sponsorship of family members and family reunification.

You do realise that our birthrate is not enough to maintain our population at its current levels and that there are generational ebbs and flows, right?

 

[Ted]

Re: Immigration

Yes, Rev. All are valid questions. I can only speak for the client base I have worked with, and I can say with confidence that 80 % of the cases I have worked on are bogus, meaning the stories are completely made up and the client is only looking for a way to stay here with legal status, even if they know it will be temporary. I can't speak for the overall numbers, but I can say that the language I work with the bogus claims are in the majority. Most are looking for better opportunities, some are fleeing prosecution as opposed to persecution. There is also a problem of gangs using the refugee system to do their business here.

BC stopped funding most refugee claims in 2003. Before that, a refugee could get funding from legal aid, including up to 10 hours for the lawyer at more than 80 dollars an hour, and an interpreter for 25 dollars an hour to cover the first stage. Then later they would get up to 8 hours of hearing preparation, translation at 19 cents per word, and the lawyer could bill for the hearing.

There are websites based in other countries that advise people about how to make a bogus claim in Canada, and how to get the most out of our social programs.

There are valid claims that fail because of the third country clause and also the internal flight alternative.

I became so frustrated with it all that I quit. I could not in good conscience make a buck while perpetuating abuses of my country's goodwill. I do understand the difference between a refugee and an immigrant. I have worked with both. I have worked with doctors that end up sweeping floors here, after successfully being accepted under the skilled worker program.

 

[Vitamin C]

Re: Immigration

I'm not sure that it is a bad thing that we don't accept University degrees from all countries at par. I think the best solution would be some kind of program that evaluates new immigrants to see if they need further training, and then provide the training.

And if some small town decides they would like to pay for that training in exchange for the person working there for a couple years, so much the better. But from my experience people in small towns usually dislike immigrants, and think they are stealing jobs from *real* Canadians.....

Also a word to small towns - If a lot of people move to small towns to get jobs, they become big towns, which probably defeats the purpose of having a small town.

Small towns struggle because of their nature - People want them to stay small, they want to live in a slow paced, peace and quiet, solitude type of place, close to nature, etc.....Those things are not conducive to industry and money.....

 

[missile]

Re: Immigration

I doubt that many [or any] of our small towns would ever accept a black or an Asian doctor

 

[Reverend Blair]

Re: Immigration

I can only speak for the client base I have worked with, and I can say with confidence that 80 % of the cases I have worked on are bogus

I'm not sure what kind of job you had, Ted, but there is no way that 80% of the refugee claimants in this country are making it all up.

BC stopped funding most refugee claims in 2003. Before that, a refugee could get funding from legal aid, including up to 10 hours for the lawyer at more than 80 dollars an hour, and an interpreter for 25 dollars an hour to cover the first stage. Then later they would get up to 8 hours of hearing preparation, translation at 19 cents per word, and the lawyer could bill for the hearing.

That's what, a couple of grand? For legal bills? That's dirt cheap. I know it irks people that we pay for it, but refugees are generally poor by definition and if they are to have a hearing, then they deserve legal representation.

I do understand the difference between a refugee and an immigrant.

That's not at all apparent in your first post, Ted. You seem not to distinguish between immigrants and refugees. They are two quite different things.

I agree that our system has many problems, but shutting the borders is the wrong way to about things. Are there going to be abuses? You bet there are. There are always abuses of any system you develop. Do foreign workers need upgrading? Yes, a lot of them do, likely not as many as we push into it, but we need to be sure that their skills are up to par.

I doubt that many [or any] of our small towns would ever accept a black or an Asian doctor

I've seen them be accepted in small towns with a history of racism, Missile. That's the one positive thing about the problems with our medical system...people can accept minority doctors or they can avoid going to the doctor.

 

[Ted]

Re: Immigration

I didn't say that 80% of the refugee claims in the country are bogus. I said that 80% of the ones in my language combination are bogus.I stand by my statement. I don't in any way blame the people that work at CIC and Refugee Protection. They do the best they can with the laws they have to work within. There should be a more thorough screening process before their files are referred to the refugee division.

This is a very big problem and nobody wants to address it. The fact is that we have gangs using the refugee program to further their interests which include selling drugs on our streets while collecting welfare. I have heard stories that are absurd, and I know they are absurd because I have lived in those countries and know the system very well there. I am not stupid. The failure to screen claimants before their file is referred makes it more difficult for real claims from certain countries to win.

I for one do not appreciate the fact that my tax dollars are being spent to provide for people that are abusing our system, while single parents that are citizens are denied legal aid and welfare.

I lived in a foreign country, and due to serious problems, I returned to Canada with my kids. There was absolutely no helping hand for me to re settle here. Had I been born in that other country, it would have been different.

I have worked with people preparing bonafide refugee claims, some have won their cases, and many others lose because the bad apples have hardened the board members who must also be sick of hearing bogus claims, and they assume that everyone from those countries is lying.

I wish the system was more fair, that is all. We should be more discerning. I don't have a problem with providing medical, social assistance and legal aid to people that really are fleeing persecution, but unfortunately, they are the ones that get denied. Since BC stopped funding most claims, the real refugees are usually denied aid, and because they cannot afford a lawyer and an interpreter, they lose their cases, not on the merit of their claim, but because they have no help. The scum bags have money to hire a lawyer, and they know the system and drag out the process through appeals and Risk Assessments, before being flown home several years later, and all of this is on our dime.

I worked independantly as an interpreter, and I saw things that made me sick. I also helped some very good people to settle here and win their claims, but they are the minority. You can believe that, or not. I also stand by my statement that there are websites and consultants in other countries that encourage people to make up bogus claims, and they even promise them work under the table when they get here. It is big business.

And here is the straw that broke the camel's back for me. A girl that I was helping lost her case and was deported, together with her two children, both Canadian citizens by birth, to a third world country where I believe the girl is truly in danger. The same day, an admitted Tamil tiger was granted asylum because it was determined that he would be killed if returned to his country. Last month, I learned that that girl's 8 year old son, a Canadian citizen, died of cholera. And I have lots of stories like that.

We can hide behind our good intentions and believe that it is all good, but things will only get worse unless we address the problem.

The system is broken. There are thousands upon thousands of families that need to be reunited, and the backlog of applications is depressing.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Immigration

People are always going to abuse the system, Ted. There is absolutely no way to avoid that. Does it need revising? Yes, and nobody is questioning that. To say that it should become harder to get into Canada because of gangs claiming refugee status isn't the way though...gangs will always find a way around the system. They are criminals and that's what criminals do.

If our immigration policies weren't so tough though, fewer people would claim refugee status because they could immigrate here through other channels. We need the people, so why not let them in.

Hell, one of our biggest shortages is in construction workers. With apprenticeship programs, we can have them learning on the job within a few weeks. Not a lot of construction workers have the money to get here though. When they do, they don't how the system works to get papers. That encourages them to claim refugee status and work under the table.

Our response is to make it even harder for them to get here legitimately. It's stupid and it's the same type of policy that has caused such a problem with illegal immigrants in the US. We've decided to copy them.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

Re: Immigration

So Nascar-James you have provided no evidence that there are 1,000 hi-tech jobs going begging in the burg of Abbotsford. A town that is 50 miles from my place and I can tell you it is not known as a hi-tech mecca. I cannot think of one firm there.

And where is the evidence of the parking lots holding idle 6,000 long-haul trucks, in of all places, New Brunswick? Show me the Google photos of those trucks wasting capital. Are the shareholders happy at this state of affairs?

Do headhunters really need mass immigration to fill jobs paying in excess of $100,000 per year? I don't read in the paper of big-time headhunters talking to architects/lawyers/doctors/managers/vets currently working as security guards/taxi drivers/janitors/clerks and offering them a great job.

 

[Nascar_James]

Re: Immigration

So Nascar-James you have provided no evidence that there are 1,000 hi-tech jobs going begging in the burg of Abbotsford. A town that is 50 miles from my place and I can tell you it is not known as a hi-tech mecca. I cannot think of one firm there.

I know for a fact that here in the US there is a drastic shortage of skilled workers. This is so severe that some companies need to sub-contract out work to individuals at really high salaries ($60-$75/hour) as well as subcontract a lot of work overseas. We get a lot of folks from countries that produce many high tech skilled workers such as India, but that is still not enough. We are issuing so many H1B visas to skilled workers to come here from abroad to work and settle down, but we still have so many unfilled jobs at the professional level.

Check out this link ...

http://www.larta.org/pl/NewsArticles/HighTechJobs_4-24-00.htm

And where is the evidence of the parking lots holding idle 6,000 long-haul trucks, in of all places, New Brunswick? Show me the Google photos of those trucks wasting capital. Are the shareholders happy at this state of affairs?

I never said parking lots in New Brunswick were holding 6000 long-haul trucks, dumpthemonarchy. Why would I? You must have me confused with someone else.

Do headhunters really need mass immigration to fill jobs paying in excess of $100,000 per year? I don't read in the paper of big-time headhunters talking to architects/lawyers/doctors/managers/vets currently working as security guards/taxi drivers/janitors/clerks and offering them a great job.

Jobs at the upper level are usually not advertised. Most jobs are filled through acquaintances. These high level officials (President, VP, CEO) usually know other collegues who may fill any similar type openings. If they cannot locate someone to fill say a startegic VP position, then yes they will engage in the services of a reliable agency to try and locate the best candidate from abroad. This type of recruiting is taken very seriously, unlike high tech recruiting.

 

[Martin Le Acadien]

Re: Immigration

And here is the straw that broke the camel's back for me. A girl that I was helping lost her case and was deported, together with her two children, both Canadian citizens by birth, to a third world country where I believe the girl is truly in danger. The same day, an admitted Tamil tiger was granted asylum because it was determined that he would be killed if returned to his country. Last month, I learned that that girl's 8 year old son, a Canadian citizen, died of cholera. And I have lots of stories like that.

We can hide behind our good intentions and believe that it is all good, but things will only get worse unless we address the problem.

The system is broken. There are thousands upon thousands of families that need to be reunited, and the backlog of applications is depressing.

In the US, the children can not be deported if US citizens! This is the reason so many ladies of childbearing age come to the US to have their children then stay when they learn that as a "Supporter" of an US Citizen, they can get in as parents under the child's citizenship.

Our system is broken down South, what can we do to fix it?

 

[Machjo]

Re: Immigration

immigrant you are not een allowed to join general society until such time as you can read, write, and show knowlegde of the countries laws and institutions.

That actually sounds like a good model. We'd function much better as a society if we can communicate clearly with each other, and understand the land and people around us.

If I were to emigrate to China for instance you'd better believe I'd wanna learn the language and understand the society in the region where I would be living in. Rather than haning out in clusters of english only people wondering how to live in such an environment.

Ha, you'd be surprised. Most anglos just hang around Shanghai and Beijing, and make no effort to learn chinese, some even after 10 years. Yet most mainland Europeans, Africans and Middle Easterners can speak Chinese, at least enough to get by, withing one to five years at most!

So it would seem to me that anglos are really not ones to talk about integration based on their track record here in China!

 

[stopracismcanada]

RE: Immigration

is a good idea to we have more and more citizen more money and more worker but we need also to find right job for them and education I came here ten years a go and was sleeping in salvation army long times because in canada after immigration and after immigrant came here there is no organization to help and support the immigrant. look here be honest first canadian immigrant came to canada shot the first native and are tooken so many free land....now new comers should pay so much for land or housing in canada and canada so large so many land why we should pay so much for that and why canada asking for more immigrant where this people should live no housing any more are in the jungle or in salvation army.I was may times applying for college in canada they are turning me down because my poor grammer I am sorry foemer of PM of canada he wasn't speak english better as me? but he became OM of canada.when I was applying for job as artist as teacher as animators ....they are so racism to me and are looking in my face because I looks like from pakestan and I never have any chance to sell my art work or publish in canadian news paper was my job in Iran working for news paper as cartoonist and teacher....in canada I do washing car or cleaning washroom to pay in expensive rent Tax and more I never have chance in past years to have new dress or meet a women as friend . will I am man may I need to meet a women and may I need to some one respect me and why canada for me so ugly because so many are here selfish and racism. I was have chance to go in los angeless I was study there and working as cartoonist they are so friendly the life so easy as canada and cost of living if some one have job not bad for living a place for grow and education are so easy for every one....but in canada drugs are free and crime and hashish because are government like to keep are yong under hashish to never ask for better life and education which canadian government should be pay for that....don't be selfish thinks why we don't have enugh college or so much pay for education and many poor and few rich. why member of canadian government never charge by jail when they are stolen are money for own? why native people are in canada killing him self suside becuse they are poor same as me same as many new comers...selfish first canadian any way I will add more and more cartoons about canada in my page http://hajiagha.tripod.com

 

[no1important]

RE: Immigration

mmmmmmmmmmm stopracismcanada your posts ring a familar bell........

 

[zenfisher]

Re: Immigration

Hmmm. Are you thinking of a new poster who's name begins with...Eh... #1 :wink:

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

Re: Immigration

Nascar-James, you takes examples from the USA. I would not disagree the USA needs more professionals, it is a different country with a far larger economy. 10X bigger. It is the USA, not Canada, that has Microsoft, Dell, IBM and ten thousand other big software companies. Plus Silicon Valley.

Canada does not have the same kind of shortages of skilled workers. The burgh of Abbotsford is not going begging for 1000 high-tech jobs like the Vancouver Sun newspaper reported on Sat Sept 24 on page A5. What computer firms are located in the Fraser Valley? Time to giggle here.

 

[Jo Canadian]

Re: Immigration

 

[Doryman]

Re: RE: Immigration

I've actually heard that the Immigration officials pressure immigrants to go into Urban areas where many of their countrymen ( country of origin I mean) already reside, even if they prefer to move into a small, rural area.

I'd support immigrants being distributed among the population, especially small towns, rather than being funneled into one large area for a number of reasons. Primarily, it'll put a stop to ghettoization and let people come to know each other as people instead of stereotypes and voting blocs. Secondly, it'll help immigrants feel as if they're Canadian; not just a bunch of Iranians given a neighbourhood in Canada.

However, I know people have a tendency to gravitate towards people more like them, so I don't know if that idea will ever take.