Can Ignatieff distance himself from his past?

[L Gilbert]

JLM - you're right. (I cant' believe I said that!!!)

Honestly - I know I come off as a Liberal partisan - or supporter, but I really don't think I am. I just want a balanced discussion of the pros and cons between the 2 major parties. When mis-representations come out on either side, it makes me crazy.

That's reasonable but when you admit you were angry with Harper, it throws your bias off and POOF, instant set of blinders.

Martin a good FM. He made hard decisions that allowed us to reduce our deficit and debt, and while people may not like it, it was good for our economy, and put us in a better position than most countries nowadays. He was a lousy PM because he couldn't make up his mind.

[/quote]Right. He did good for the more well off people. The people lowest ends of the scale he stepped all over. I think I did mention the elderly and students, didn't I? Lower income seniors and students were trampled almost into the ground because of that a$$hole. Wanna look at something? Here's a site a couple of university students dug upinfo for and posted:

PaulMartinTime .ca: a public resource on Canada's Prime Minister

More?

Paul Martin: He has a record | rabble.ca

I really like the bit when he talked us into voting him in as PM on the basis of what he wrote in his "red book:. Then after he's parked his privileged, bombastic butt a few times, he says. "The Red Book!! Screw the Red Book... Don't tell me what's in the Red Book. I wrote the goddamned thing. And I know that it's a lot of crap."

Even Chretien - who I feel was a crook, wasn't all bad - because at least under his watch we were able to right the fiscal ship, and his not allowing the banks to merge saved our bacon this time around.

Right. ChRETIeN wasn't all bad, but who wants a crook at the head of gov't? Shawinigate sound familiar? .

Mulroney had the balls to implement the GST - which while extremely unpopular, and probably the main reason his party has decimated in the next election, was the most progressive, and likely last statesman-like act any of our PMs have done, as it helped laid the foundation for the prosperity we had in the 90's (it's wasn't solely responsible, but it did help)

Another crook. Lovely.

What is (will be) Harper's legacy?

Crux of the Matter » Harper Gov’t Record All bad? I doubt it.

 

[JLM]

I get what your saying - my issue is more when he (Harper) runs down people that won't say never - and then he does the same thing. For example, when Dion in October refused to say that he would never run a deficit - Harper jumped all over him - and turned that into an election issue. Same with the Income Trust decision (A Conservative gov''t would NEVER raid senior's hard earned nest egg). Even Ignatieff's stance on "not taking tax increases off the table." In my mind - that's a reasonable approach. Coming out saying "Look - he's tax and spend...I will NEVER raise taxes," is the height of stupidity - both for the person who said it - and those who believe it. (One of the reasons I didn't vote Harper in last election is because I KNEW in October that deficit financing could not be off the table, what with the coming recession and all - it was an out right lie (or sheer incompenence - your pick) by Harper for him to say "never")

I don't have a problem with people changing their minds, correcting themselves, saying that they were wrong, and here's why we changed...etc. When has Harper EVER done that? (BTW - releasing 13 pages of blacked out documents detailing tax leakage, or saying "the Liberals did it too!" doesn't count).

I hear you, Pegger, while I defend Harper on some things, I never lose sight of the fact he is every bit as capable of sleaze as Ignatieff and Layton & most other politicians in the country. What annoys me a lot is some people, once they get down on someone (like Bush) every thing they do from then on is wrong.

 

[L Gilbert]

Except for fixed election dates, not taxing Income trusts, never "choosing winners or losers in industry" (bailing out specific companies), never working with seperatists (except when he needs them), "never under his watch" running a deficit, never talking with the Taliban, being more open and accountable, refusing to appoint Senators, implementing Gomery...

Yeah, I see your point on him not flip flopping....

And who hasn't flipflopped? When all the apples in the bin are red, it's rather pointless to point one out because it's red.

 

[L Gilbert]

I hear you, Pegger, while I defend Harper on some things, I never lose sight of the fact he is every bit as capable of sleaze as Ignatieff and Layton & most other politicians in the country. What annoys me a lot is some people, once they get down on someone (like Bush) every thing they do from then on is wrong.

Yup. And because I am pretty much centrist, I get tired of hearing nothing but bad , so I point out the good.
Not 1 PM has ever been all bad. All of them, IMO, could have been a lot better, but that's what we seem to choose in gov'ts.

 

[scoops11]

its rediculious that the attack add uses quotes that are over 15 years old. The conservatives love throwing down the mud and getting dirty lets see of the liberals can take the high road on this one.

 

[L Gilbert]

Martin sure liked to get his little two-bit attacks in, too.

 

[pegger]

.... I never lose sight of the fact he is every bit as capable of sleaze as Ignatieff and Layton & most other politicians in the country....

Inspiring, isn't it?

I get where both you and Gilbert are coming from. I feel like we are all beating different sides of the same dead horse.

I would love to have an inspirational choice for a PM - but it seems unlikely when we continue to re-elect the same garbage every election. Short of a revolution, the reality is that the next government will either be the Conservatives (under Harper) or the Liberals (under Ignatieff). Given that, in my mind, Harper sucks (yes, my blinders are on - nothing will change my mind on that - he has had his chance to show me otherwise, and has failed) or Ignatieff (whose greatest sin is being a successful, world renown teacher and expert on a variety of subjects) I'll take my chance on Ignatieff. Harper has had his chance (twice now) and blown it (both times).

If Harper was to step down as leader, and a new leader was put into place - it would be a different story all together for me (depending on who the new leader is)

 

[pegger]

Crux of the Matter » Harper Gov’t Record All bad? I doubt it.

Just to balance your list:

Harper's broken promises (up to 2007)

 

[captain morgan]

Ignatieff (whose greatest sin is being a successful, world renown teacher and expert on a variety of subjects) I'll take my chance on Ignatieff. Harper has had his chance (twice now) and blown it (both times).

Holy cow! Talk about seeing the glass as 1/2 full...

Perhaps you'll consider looking into exactly what Iggy has stated and written relative to Canada... I can't imagine that after anyone reviewing this information that they would settle for the idea of the cons' were upset with Ignatieff because he is successful.

Really, go and see for yourself.

 

[JLM]

Yup. And because I am pretty much centrist, I get tired of hearing nothing but bad , so I point out the good.
Not 1 PM has ever been all bad. All of them, IMO, could have been a lot better, but that's what we seem to choose in gov'ts.

Yep, after all they are all basically human if you are not too rigid with the parameters of the term.

 

[L Gilbert]

Just to balance your list:

Harper's broken promises (up to 2007)

Right on. lol But show me one PM who hasn't broken promises?
6 of one and half dozen of the other. I just simply refuse to hope that either Gliberal or Con get in as gov't because they just make messes. Here, I vote for who makes sense, and mostly its the Indies that make sense.The rest are just party hacks.

 

[L Gilbert]

Holy cow! Talk about seeing the glass as 1/2 full...

Perhaps you'll consider looking into exactly what Iggy has stated and written relative to Canada... I can't imagine that after anyone reviewing this information that they would settle for the idea of the cons' were upset with Ignatieff because he is successful.

Really, go and see for yourself.

Yeah, you have a point there. After all, Martin is successful, Chretien is successful, Mulroney is successful ....... hey wait!!! Weren't they all fairly well-off and successful? Some others wrote books, some speechified at universities, etc.

*Points at a box of red delicious apples and says, "Hey, look at that red apple. Isn't it special?"

 

[pegger]

LG - I WISH I had a good Indy to vote for...and to top it off, I'm in Goodyear's riding (and don't get me started on him). I did vote Green two elections ago (before Elizabeth May came in)..I just don't see another choice right now.

Capt - I can never get on that Ignatieff.me site - it never loads for me (of course, I've got a phishing blocker on - maybe that's why?) What I have seen is not anything worse than what Harper himself has said about Canada. As I said earlier in this thread, it's a push for me on the whole comments about Canada thing (between Harper and Ignatieff)

 

[pegger]

Yeah, you have a point there. After all, Martin is successful, Chretien is successful, Mulroney is successful ....... hey wait!!! Weren't they all fairly well-off and successful? Some others wrote books, some speechified at universities, etc.

*Points at a box of red delicious apples and says, "Hey, look at that red apple. Isn't it special?"

Harper wasn't...unless he was the BEST mail-room clerk at that job he held before becoming a professional political hack...

 

[pegger]

as a PS - you guys are definitely making this a 2 martini night...

 

[L Gilbert]

Harper wasn't...unless he was the BEST mail-room clerk at that job he held before becoming a professional political hack...

After the mail room?

Later, he would advance to work on the company's computer systems. He took up post-secondary studies again at the University of Calgary, where he completed a Bachelor's degree in economics. He later returned there to earn a Master's degree in economics, completed in 1993. Harper has kept strong links to the University of Calgary, and often guest-lectured there. He is the first prime minister since Lester B. Pearson not to have attended law school.

lol Economists are political hacks now. I see.

 

[L Gilbert]

lol

Harper reportedly owns a large vinyl record collection and is an avid fan of The Beatles and AC/DC.

Holy moly!!!!! Better crucify the SOB over this bit of news. lmao (both quotes from Wikipedia.)

 

[pegger]

After the mail room?
lol Economists are political hacks now. I see.

Having a degree - and working in the field are 2 different things. What job did he have as an economist?

 

[pegger]

lol Holy moly!!!!! Better crucify the SOB over this bit of news. lmao (both quotes from Wikipedia.)

LOL - I'm picturing him in his black AC/DC shirt - head banging away to Thunderstruck.

 

[L Gilbert]

Having a degree - and working in the field are 2 different things. What job did he have as an economist?

Oh, come on, Peg. You hinted that he wasn't successful. I pointed out that he has a Master's in economics. Besides that, he has a family. Success isn't all about business or money.
BTW, it did say he lectured at universities. Hint hint hint. I bet it was about economics.