Can a group maintain identity but be Canadian??

[Karlin]

Canada is an experiment in love, tolerance, and freedom from conformity.

There are many who are still fighting to retain their historical traditions, and we might say "thats ok, they will learn, we will give them time".

Infinate Compassion - means trying to understand "why they do what they do" , as a way to help them to start loving again.

That is so Canadian, eh?

 

[tamarin]

The problem remains that countries are too important to be experiments. We need policies that reflect sober judgment after appropriate reflection. I'm not sure if that's true in this case. Multiculturalism, especially in small population countries like Canada or Australia, after a time lag of thirty to fifty years, can't be undone. Even if it's found to be harmful to the country's fabric.

 

[Calliope]

I have been checking out this forum on and off for some time now, but have resisted the urge to register or contribute. This particular thread has caused me to forego that hesitation and put forth my two cents.

Wow, I'm impressed!! And I will fight to the death so you will have a right to that opinion and get a chance to vote the way you like. You see Canada one way, I see it another, I really depends on your perspective.

My analogy may not have suited you but the gist of it was not incorrect as I am not alone with this view.

Should we be multicultural or should we be integrated. Muticulteralizm has not worked out very well in other places it sure does not seem to be working here. Thirty or so years ago when the new politically trend started with I am (______ fill in the blank) Canadian that is when we started to see divisions in our neighboour hoods and cities. We must be Canadain first.


Here is an interesting link.

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Corbella_Licia/2006/06/18/1638909.html

Divided loyalties
Sociology prof warns multiculturalism 'creates nations within a nation'

By Licia Corbella

Dr. Mahfooz Kanwar recently attended Calgary's largest mosque for a funeral.

At one point in the proceedings, a man Kanwa has known for more than three decades led the prayers.

"He was saying in Urdu (the official language of Pakistan): 'Oh, God, protect us from the infidels, who pollute us with their vile ways,'" recalls Kanwar, a professor of sociology at Mount Royal College in Calgary.

"I stood up and grabbed him by the lapels, which was shocking even to me because I have never done anything like that in my life and I said: 'How dare you attack my country.' And then I addressed the crowd and said: 'I have known this man for more than 30 years and he has been on welfare for almost all of those years.' "

 

[tamarin]

"Multiculturalism creates nations within a nation and divides the loyalty of people," says the 65-year-old Pakastani-born Kanwar, who immigrated to Canada in 1966.

"It allows people to marginalize themselves. It endangers us all as these recent arrests show."

Excellent quote from the above linked article!
Scary days these. All the moreso with the recent release of a book detailing the past of Canada's multicultural guru, Pierre Trudeau. Trudeau in his twenties was an avowed fascist and said in one inflammtory wartime (WWII) speech that those who wished to oppose Hitler and join the war in Europe should be "impaled alive." Shocking stuff and material that was owed to the electorate before he put his hat in the Canadian ring.

 

[Calliope]

Re: RE: Can a group maintain identity but be Canadian??

"Multiculturalism creates nations within a nation and divides the loyalty of people," says the 65-year-old Pakastani-born Kanwar, who immigrated to Canada in 1966.

"It allows people to marginalize themselves. It endangers us all as these recent arrests show."

Excellent quote from the above linked article!
Scary days these. All the moreso with the recent release of a book detailing the past of Canada's multicultural guru, Pierre Trudeau. Trudeau in his twenties was an avowed fascist and said in one inflammtory wartime (WWII) speech that those who wished to oppose Hitler and join the war in Europe should be "impaled alive." Shocking stuff and material that was owed to the electorate before he put his hat in the Canadian ring.

When the people singularly believe that pap served up to them via the media with out doing more research this is the type of leaders we wind up with. Sad but true. He was also anti-Semite and a sepratist. He was a true Dorian Grey.

 

[Simpleton]

No one is asking immigrants to give up their identy, culture or religion." But when in Rome" My home was built long before you were born, I like it the way it is and I don't want to change it. If you don't like the way it is, stay where your are and make the changes you like from within.
But then if you still decide to come to my home.
I will treat you with respect but
don't come into my house and expect me to change the rules because I have allowed you to move in. If you don't like my rules stay where you are. I don't want you to bring in the excess baggage from your old home. You have to learn my language in order to communicate with me in my home. If I went to your home I would be expected to know the language and obey your rules. I have no problem with you practicing you religion, just do not expect me to live by its precepts.
Once you get here if you don't like the way I run my home you are free to leave.

I agree entirely and would add that by changint the home you are taking away the very thing that attracted you to it in the first place.

Good point!

That is not a good point. It is a bad point that implies Canada is a model of perfection. Not to be a Canada basher, but Canada is very far from being perfect, and it is ridiculous to suggest that only natural born Canadians can play a role in the evolution of a nation.

Your logic is akin to saying that the public should have no right to send letters to the editor of a newspaper. You would have us believe that a newspaper is an enterprise with staff writers and that allowing people to write letters to the editor would change the fabric that attracted readers to the newspaper in the first place. I realize that this is not the best analogy for a nation, but it does somewhat demonstrate the very parochial attitude that you are presenting.

 

[Vicious]

No one is asking immigrants to give up their identy, culture or religion." But when in Rome" My home was built long before you were born, I like it the way it is and I don't want to change it. If you don't like the way it is, stay where your are and make the changes you like from within.
But then if you still decide to come to my home.
I will treat you with respect but
don't come into my house and expect me to change the rules because I have allowed you to move in. If you don't like my rules stay where you are. I don't want you to bring in the excess baggage from your old home. You have to learn my language in order to communicate with me in my home. If I went to your home I would be expected to know the language and obey your rules. I have no problem with you practicing you religion, just do not expect me to live by its precepts.
Once you get here if you don't like the way I run my home you are free to leave.

I agree entirely and would add that by changint the home you are taking away the very thing that attracted you to it in the first place.

Good point!

That is not a good point. It is a bad point that implies Canada is a model of perfection. Not to be a Canada basher, but Canada is very far from being perfect, and it is ridiculous to suggest that only natural born Canadians can play a role in the evolution of a nation.

Your logic is akin to saying that the public should have no right to send letters to the editor of a newspaper. You would have us believe that a newspaper is an enterprise with staff writers and that allowing people to write letters to the editor would change the fabric that attracted readers to the newspaper in the first place. I realize that this is not the best analogy for a nation, but it does somewhat demonstrate the very parochial attitude that you are presenting.

Hi Simpleton. Thanks for contibuting your ideas.

I will step out from behind the analogy of the home and be blunt. If you leave your country to escape war and come to Canada bringing your hatred with you,aActing on that hatred in Canada will only create a Canada that is more and more like the country you left. If you can leave that behind and live next to others be they Hindu, Muslim, Jew, Irish, English, Chinese, whatever then welcome, work hard, raise your children pay your taxes, worship your god and your football team come World Cup time. But don't ask me to pay for your child's home-language school (Chinese, Italian, etc), the building of your church or ethnic community centre, nor to support your team.

 

[Jersay]

:?:

 

[akpower]

I believe a group, now this doesn't have to tie into Muslims but anyone can have their own religious, and social identity in Canada at least and still be a Canadian citizen.

To bring up Islam for a moment, the Bible which is the Christian holy book has been basically edited a few times, maybe it is time to edit the Quran to times of today.

Also what does it have to do with a veil or a Kirpan, or a Turban if you are Canadian, does it really matter??

Ofc one can maintain identity and be Canadian at the same time. I am a Canadian Muslim and proud of it. I know many Canadian Muslims who are proud of their culture as well as of being Canadian.

Also, I am not very knowledgable but I dont see why Quran needs to be edited. There are certain things though that some Muslim conservatives follow very closely but they shd remember that some rules in Quran were modelled for the tribal socieities of the older times. Those rules need to be reviewed, for instance rules of punishment of crimes etc. because we dont live in a tribal/illeterate/one-dimensional society any more.

 

[Jersay]

I believe a group, now this doesn't have to tie into Muslims but anyone can have their own religious, and social identity in Canada at least and still be a Canadian citizen.

To bring up Islam for a moment, the Bible which is the Christian holy book has been basically edited a few times, maybe it is time to edit the Quran to times of today.

Also what does it have to do with a veil or a Kirpan, or a Turban if you are Canadian, does it really matter??

Ofc one can maintain identity and be Canadian at the same time. I am a Canadian Muslim and proud of it. I know many Canadian Muslims who are proud of their culture as well as of being Canadian.

Also, I am not very knowledgable but I dont see why Quran needs to be edited. There are certain things though that some Muslim conservatives follow very closely but they shd remember that some rules in Quran were modelled for the tribal socieities of the older times. Those rules need to be reviewed, for instance rules of punishment of crimes etc. because we dont live in a tribal/illeterate/one-dimensional society any more.

But that's the point. The Bible had alot of crap with slavery and all kind of crap about it like we have to educate all the little Heathens and such or destory them, but that is not good in a world like this so they changed it they just took out those parts.

Now the Quran, shouldn't it atleast put those parts of the Quran that deal with the era it was in the 7th century or so into context today so young Muslims who might be marginalized don't come across that and say wow. That's cool I want to do that. And such.

 

[akpower]

^^ I agree. In every Quranic translation, the commentary shd clearly state certain rules that cannot applied to present times. In fact some already do. Most scholars actually agree w/the idea. But the sad part is I believe the extremists will still find something that suits them.

I have read in a few diff places that the Quranic versions these guyz follow is slighty different then what "normal" Muslims follow.

 

[Jersay]

Re: RE: Can a group maintain identity but be Canadian??

^^ I agree. In every Quranic translation, the commentary shd clearly state certain rules that cannot applied to present times. In fact some already do. Most scholars actually agree w/the idea. But the sad part is I believe the extremists will still find something that suits them.

I have read in a few diff places that the Quranic versions these guyz follow is slighty different then what "normal" Muslims follow.

I don't know. With the changes to the Bible you don't have as many nutjobs running around thank god, at least my religion is safe for now,

but if it does change or edit it I don't think it would have so mo\uch power onto young Muslim people because right now they are bored, disenfranchised and tired and this sounds appealing. Some would join the extremists but you can't save those kinds they just want to kill people. Because i am sure at least most of those 17, if they had a different version or were told about that it was in that context not all of them would go do a terrorist plot.

 

[akpower]

The moderates in the Muslims communities around the world need to be more active, everyone from scholars to teachers to parents etc shd be more vocal abt their beliefs.

They are doing so now but this is not enough, more is reqd. They have to shun these hawkish people into total isolation. Parents shd spend more time in teaching there children abt the essence of Islam rather then just blindly following rituals. We are on the right track but we still need to mobilize ourselves alot more...

 

[Jersay]

Re: RE: Can a group maintain identity but be Canadian??

The moderates in the Muslims communities around the world need to be more active, everyone from scholars to teachers to parents etc shd be more vocal abt their beliefs.

They are doing so now but this is not enough, more is reqd. They have to shun these hawkish people into total isolation. Parents shd spend more time in teaching there children abt the essence of Islam rather then just blindly following rituals. We are on the right track but we still need to mobilize ourselves alot more...

I agree. But alot of other religions have to do the exact same thing as the Muslim community. There are just as many Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Pagan, Athiest and other people out there that need to moderate themselves.

 

[dekhqonbacha]

Re: RE: Can a group maintain identity but be Canadian??

^^ I agree. In every Quranic translation, the commentary shd clearly state certain rules that cannot applied to present times. In fact some already do. Most scholars actually agree w/the idea. But the sad part is I believe the extremists will still find something that suits them.

I have read in a few diff places that the Quranic versions these guyz follow is slighty different then what "normal" Muslims follow.

I wonder if they even follow it. Because they take religios as veil and do their job.

I've not read nor Qaran neither Bible, but I think that nowhere it says that when someone goes on TV they have to be with their AK.