Bail out the Big 3?

[Trex]

What to do?

Quote
Canadian auto industry to lose 15,000 jobs by end of 2009: Conference Board of Canada.
Unquote.

To my way of thinking bailing them out is throwing good money after bad.
After all, the main reason they are in trouble is because people do not want to buy their products.

On the other hand allowing increases in Ontario's welfare and unemployment roles by 10's of thousands certainly wont get the Harper government any new seats in the heartland.

Trex

 

[darkbeaver]

We're damned if we do and damned if we don't. There is no easy fix for the auto makers or any future. Put our money and time in mass transit and efficient affordable housing. Deleverage from the machine, tear up the trade aggreements and erect the barriers, get out in front of the contraction or it will run over us. I've been hearing stable economy, mild downturn, medium downturn, mild recession, medium recession for the last year while reading global catyclismic hyperinflationary depression and war on a never before recorded scale. Fornicate the cars, we have to eat and it's winter.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Bail them out in exchange for shares (at $3/share) and conditional upon the Big 3 building
affordable, durable, intelligent automobiles that people will actually want to buy....even in
this current market.

These HAVE to be priced at least competitively, if not substantially less than their
competitors, or why bother...If the Big 3 don't agree to this, use the $$$ for the Bail-Out
towards retraining these folks to do something else.

 

[EagleSmack]

Bail them out in exchange for shares (at $3/share) and conditional upon the Big 3 building
affordable, durable, intelligent automobiles that people will actually want to buy....even in
this current market.

These HAVE to be priced at least competitively, if not substantially less than their
competitors, or why bother...If the Big 3 don't agree to this, use the $$$ for the Bail-Out
towards retraining these folks to do something else.

Do you mean the people who are doing the bailout...the tax payers...will be able to buy affordable shares. HA! And have a chance to share in the wealth, albeit a small token, if things go well?

The Japanese have been building great cars for years and they still haven't learned from them. They have the answers right in front of them. Heck...you can't even change a headlight in your own car w/o taking it apart now.

No way Ron...they want our money to do as they will with it because they know SO MUCH more than us. Just like Fanny Mac et all.

 

[Trex]

We're damned if we do and damned if we don't. There is no easy fix for the auto makers or any future. Put our money and time in mass transit and efficient affordable housing. Deleverage from the machine, tear up the trade aggreements and erect the barriers, get out in front of the contraction or it will run over us. I've been hearing stable economy, mild downturn, medium downturn, mild recession, medium recession for the last year while reading global catyclismic hyperinflationary depression and war on a never before recorded scale. Fornicate the cars, we have to eat and it's winter.

^Good one.

And almost certainly at the very least partially correct.

But what about all the family's of the workers?
The country just washes it's hands?

 

[scratch]

If they have a problem, they only have themselves to blame.

Let them rot for what they did to the car buying public.

Send the machinery back to the states and make them work rather than loaf.

 

[Andem]

I think the solution to this mess, just like most of our economic troubles, is to focus on domestic and North American troubles rather than sending jobs, money, offices, executives [yes it DOES happen] and resources to Asia, namely China.

I'm certainly not a fan of Asian products, nor would I ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER! purchase an Asian car, but they are cheaply built and cheap in all respects. If North American auto makers rebuilt their respect in their own market, there shouldn't be such an issue. Ford's are somewhat respected autos here in the car capital of the world, which is more than one can say about a Honda. A mate told me Fords are only respected here because the ones sold here (which yes, look very different than those in Canada) use European technology.

If there's still respect for a US-American car here there's still gotta be hope. If I was ever caught driving a Hyandai or Honda here in Germany, even as a rental car, I'd be labelled as a loser, or even worse, a traitor.

Why aren't North Americans also proud about their own products? Are they so unconcerned for their own safety and national pride that they'll go for the 'cheapest and cheerfullest' everytime?

 

[Scott Free]

A bailout is a subsidy and as such isn't legal under NAFTA. If the USA "bailout" their auto industry then we should sue them or slap tariffs on their cars they try and import. That in itself would be a "bailout" enough for our industry IMO.

 

[scratch]

Good idea .

 

[Ron in Regina]

Do you mean the people who are doing the bailout...the tax payers...will be able to buy affordable shares. HA! And have a chance to share in the wealth, albeit a small token, if things go well?

The Japanese have been building great cars for years and they still haven't learned from them. They have the answers right in front of them. Heck...you can't even change a headlight in your own car w/o taking it apart now.

No way Ron...they want our money to do as they will with it because they know SO MUCH more than us. Just like Fanny Mac et all.

Federal Government gets the shares for $3/pop....Taxpayers can buy them directly from the
Government at a locked in cost of $5/share....no trade fee's or minimum amounts...only to
Canadian Citizens who've overpaid on their income tax in lieu of an income tax return. Can
take part in $$$, and the balance in shares in GM, FORD, etc....just check the applicable
box's on the tax return form.

Auto industry gets bailed out, government gets their $$$ back fast from tax payers, and the
taxpayers can sit on whatever number of shares they're individually comfortable with (or none
at all). Government has large voluntary windfall of revenue from those that chose to buy the
shares. Federal Government avoids being able to use Bail-Out as an excuse for a deficit.

 

[scratch]

Avery sad situation and it was avoidable, but money always wins out. No matter what.

 

[darkbeaver]

^Good one.

And almost certainly at the very least partially correct.

But what about all the family's of the workers?
The country just washes it's hands?

Like I said we're damned anyway, if we can borrow for the auto workers in expectation of socially positive outcome we can borrow directly for infrastructure projects like mass transit with greater realistic expectations of social welfare. The ruling paradigm is effectively and permanently selfdestroyed, that was deliberate, we must contract ahead of the wave and all we have is months or weeks to build some buffer.
We may be able to do nothing, so paralysed is our leadership. This country has been washing it's hands of the common people for over thirty years, systematically washing them out of industry and washing them out of real income. Much was allowed to deteriorate to fatten the few exclusive special interest groups, nothing trickles down from their tables but mindless rhetoric.

 

[darkbeaver]

Avery sad situation and it was avoidable, but money always wins out. No matter what.

If that were true money would not be so terrified of the people.

 

[lone wolf]

It's a dependability thing ... and North American cars don't have it any more. Gone are the days when a car was built with pride, or you could get a million miles from a slant six engine, or find parts built in 1957 that will bolt onto your 1990 V8. It's all planned obsolescence and throw away now. The governments even had to come out with clunker laws because Asian cars will last twice as long as home made.

 

[darkbeaver]

Good idea .

think napalm

 

[Socrates the Greek]

The oil magnets should bail out the Big 3, don't tuch tax payer money to help the big 3 losers....

 

[taxslave]

I am against bailing out any business with tax dollars, and even more so to bail out foreign owned companies. Should also be careful what you ask for. Look what happened to the Softwood lumber deal when that TRAITOR Emmerson decided to "help" us. Not only did we get screwed but he gave a billion dollars of the industries money to the US timber Barons in exchange for a worse deal than we had before he decided to help.
If we were to help the Auto Industry what guarantees do we have that Canadian workers would benefit and the money would not simply flow back to the parent company shareholders? Or that they wold ever build good ,fuel efficient vehicles that we can afford?

 

[scratch]

No guarantee and don't even give it a second thought.
rgs

 

[Ron in Regina]

I am against bailing out any business with tax dollars, and even more so to bail out foreign owned companies. Should also be careful what you ask for. Look what happened to the Softwood lumber deal when that TRAITOR Emmerson decided to "help" us. Not only did we get screwed but he gave a billion dollars of the industries money to the US timber Barons in exchange for a worse deal than we had before he decided to help.
If we were to help the Auto Industry what guarantees do we have that Canadian workers would benefit and the money would not simply flow back to the parent company shareholders? Or that they wold ever build good ,fuel efficient vehicles that we can afford?

Bail-Out $$$ for shares at a locked in low-low-low price...If they want the $$$, then that's
just the way it goes down, or it doesn't go down. By he way, Welcome Aboard!

 

[petros]

Bail outs are merely incentive to keep screwing up with other people's money. If they can't turn a profit when total cost of a vehicle is 5-6K including labour then maybe they should cut down on advertising. How many times a day do you have to see a truck pulling a horse trailer through the mud at 250K for a 30 sec commercial.

If they offered a good product with quality and value it would sell it's self. A polished turd is still a turd no matter how many horse trailers get yarded through the mud.