Another Beheading In Iraq - and some questions

[Jillyvn]

So, by now everyone on the board knows that another American has been beheaded in Iraq.

I have to say - I wonder about this as a strategy. It is along the same lines as the Chechyn rebels who took the school hostage. Random beheading of people, killing children - I fail to see how these strategies advance the cause. I thought someone on the site might be able to enlighten me.

Also, video is circulating on the web of this one as well. Would you ever watch the video?

Discuss

 

[vista]

I watched the South Korean beheading.

The Nick Berg one has been dismissed as a hoax (most likely a CIA black operation at the height of Abu Graib) and even an American faked a beheading that was subsequently broadcast. He then came clean demonstrating how easy they could be faked.

That is not too say all are fakes.

 

[bogie]

Would you ever watch the video?

No. Plain and simple.

"Terror" is the key word in "Terrorism". It is a psychological battle that can create opposite reactions, thereby bringing both support and disdain and opposition for their actions.

Brilliantly executed conspiracy theories, and inciting opposition to the US gov't (U.S. internally) and American citizens (outside the U.S.), is a difficult enemy to fight and defeat. Russian so-called "communism" used to work in a similar fashion.

The same "people" sheep that are led blindly by the US government, prodded-on by deep financial interests, and into a battle that cannot be "won" (like Vietnam), are also led by the terrorists to try and create enough dissent to defeat from within. No matter what happens, the "people" lose.

The terrorists do not have a cause - they are simply thugs and murderers, not caring who is killed - even their own people.

The thoughts (conspiracy theories) that the US gov't would kill their own people, or allow them to be killed, to create an excuse to attack, is ludicrous. The idea that a planned "fake" attack, like mentioned about a dummy aircraft being shot down "by the enemy" and using it as a military tactic to go into battle with an enemy, is plausible and possible.

History does indeed tend to repeat itself.

 

[vista]

The thoughts (conspiracy theories) that the US gov't would kill their own people, or allow them to be killed, to create an excuse to attack, is ludicrous.

Over two thousand people died at Pearl Harbour. "A small price to pay for unifying the country."

This how political and military leaders think.

 

[Jillyvn]

"Terror" is the key word in "Terrorism". It is a psychological battle that can create opposite reactions, thereby bringing both support and disdain and opposition for their actions.
...
The terrorists do not have a cause - they are simply thugs and murderers, not caring who is killed - even their own people.

Sorry for editing down your text, I just wanted to keep track of the two points you made here, since I wanted to address them directly.

I don't think the terrorists are only thugs. I think they are blindly devoted to a cause that they will do anything to achieve, including murder "innocent" people. My question is, WHY do they think this will work as a strategy? It cannot be as simple as "they are thugs".

 

[vista]

Incidentally, Chairman of the Joint chiefs Lemnitzer also tried to convince President Kennedy to authorise an attack on John Glenn’s rocket. He had an obsession with Cuba.

The terrorists do not have a cause - they are simply thugs and murderers, not caring who is killed - even their own people.

Bush, Ridge, Cheney et. al have committed atrocities against their own people and they have issued fake terror alerts to instil fear into their population - terrorists.

 

[bogie]

I don't think the terrorists are only thugs. I think they are blindly devoted to a cause that they will do anything to achieve, including murder "innocent" people. My question is, WHY do they think this will work as a strategy? It cannot be as simple as "they are thugs".

I think that I have to elaborate a little. It is hard to explain the psychology behind the terrorism that we are experiencing and the minds of the people we call "terrorists".

It really isn't as simple as being a "cut and dried" explanation.

We cannot imagine what it is like to be born into a "killing field". Growing up as a child and perceiving that this is how life is. Being told that the U.S., and their allies, are their deadly enemy. And so much more. They are more than just "sheep", they are totally blind and brainwashed sheep. Ever suspicious, even of their own.

They are thugs, but the majority don't realize it, as it is their way of life. We are taught life as we grow up as children.

How do you combat this? How do you have compassion for these people and, at the same time, try and save them from their own oppressors? How do you do this without attacking their religion, their culture, and their dignity? And, during all of this, have them trying to kill you - a perceived enemy.

There are no statistics for this next thought of mine, but I think you will see what I am trying to envision.

How many are sent to the US to create acts of terror, arrive in the US only to find a freedom that they could only dream off, if imagine at all, and land up abandoning their "mission", hoping to get their families safely out of their war-torn country? This is most likely the main reason that so many acts of terror have not occured.

Before 9-11, terrorism was most likely being fought quietly in the trenches, out of normal site and knowledge, then the unbelievable happened (9-11). The U.S. defense was caught off-guard. A massive, unexpected, victory for those who were trying to create terrorism in the U.S. It hasn't happened since, and most likely will not again (although possible). The biggest victories, in any battle in history, have been created by surprise and an unprepared opponent.

The military zealots in the U.S. now had their excuse to go into battle. Amazing how every society has their blood-thirsty element that can manipulate their citizens into agreeing with their tactics. BUT - please, no conspiracy theory here. This just fell into the US military leaders' laps - a gift from Allah.

Sheep, in the U.S., being led into supporting a battle that should not take place, against sheep in other countries who are led into the same battle by their oppressors who need an excuse to remain in power in their impoverished countries.

Shakespeare couldn't have written a better tragedy.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Another Beheading In

The terrorism does work though. Look at this way...you're a Chechen and your kids were killed during a Russian attack sometime since the official war ended. You see those kids being killed and you think, "Good, now they know how I feel." You are an Iraqi. You were wealthy before the Gulf War, but that war and the ensuing sanctions made you poor. You know you oppressed by Saddam and you know that the US put him in power. You've seen your own daughter decapitated in a "shock and awe" bombing. A US businessman just lost his head? Think you might sign up to help out in the next kidnapping?

Not that it excuses terrorism, but if we push people to where they have no hope the promise of simple revenge will continue to be a motivating factor. The further people are pushed, the more will follow those who promise revenge and the uglier that revenge will be.

 

[Jillyvn]

I think that I have to elaborate a little. It is hard to explain the psychology behind the terrorism that we are experiencing and the minds of the people we call "terrorists".

It really isn't as simple as being a "cut and dried" explanation.

We cannot imagine what it is like to be born into a "killing field". Growing up as a child and perceiving that this is how life is. Being told that the U.S., and their allies, are their deadly enemy. And so much more. They are more than just "sheep", they are totally blind and brainwashed sheep. Ever suspicious, even of their own.

They are thugs, but the majority don't realize it, as it is their way of life. We are taught life as we grow up as children.

How do you combat this? How do you have compassion for these people and, at the same time, try and save them from their own oppressors? How do you do this without attacking their religion, their culture, and their dignity? And, during all of this, have them trying to kill you - a perceived enemy.

Thanks for elaborating!

I'm much clearer on what you mean now. I think you have raised some really interesting talking points. Specifically, the idea of how we can have compassion and how we can begin to initiate change.

I think the only way this can be done is by ending the actions that lead to the roots of complaint. I.e., no occupation of a foreign country and land grabbing for oil, a less biased stance on Israel, allowing a country sovereinty (Chechnya)... these are legitimate concerns that should be addressed and not dismissed out of hand. The problem, as I see it, is that world leaders view concessions to terrorists as giving in and only further promoting more terrorism. It's a real catch 22

 

[Jillyvn]

Re: RE: Another Beheading In

The terrorism does work though. Look at this way...you're a Chechen and your kids were killed during a Russian attack sometime since the official war ended. You see those kids being killed and you think, "Good, now they know how I feel." You are an Iraqi. You were wealthy before the Gulf War, but that war and the ensuing sanctions made you poor. You know you oppressed by Saddam and you know that the US put him in power. You've seen your own daughter decapitated in a "shock and awe" bombing. A US businessman just lost his head? Think you might sign up to help out in the next kidnapping?

Not that it excuses terrorism, but if we push people to where they have no hope the promise of simple revenge will continue to be a motivating factor. The further people are pushed, the more will follow those who promise revenge and the uglier that revenge will be.

This is also a very good point...however, it misses the main thrust of my question.

How does it in any way work on the enemy? I understand how it might be perceived amoungst their own people but if the ultimate end game is, for example, to get the US out of Iraq, how will this foster support on US soil for a troop withdrawl? If anything, I would think it would make the government and people more resolute in their opinion that this is a nation desperatly in need of subduing.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Another Beheading In

It won't have a direct impact, but as the opposition to American involvement rises and solidifies, the attacks against US interests become more common.

It's about raising an army...propaganda for the home front. The message is not meant for the US or Russia, it is meant for that guy sitting at home with his rusty AK-47 and feeling bitter.

It worked in the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, Vietnam, Cuba, Cambodia. It's about feeding people's worst instincts and it has been a successful tactic through history.

 

[vista]

Terrorist or Freedom Fighter?

George Bush: "I'm amazed that there's such misunderstanding of what our country is about that people would hate us. I am -- like most Americans, I just can't believe it because I know how good we are."

Forty-five years ago, President Eisenhower discussed what he called the "campaign of hatred against us" in the Arab world, "not by the governments but by the people."

The National Security Council did their analysis and advised, it is the recognition that the U.S. supports corrupt and brutal governments that block democracy and development and does so because of its concern "to protect its interest in Near East oil."

Too the assault upon Beirut in 1983 and 1984 is but one of many examples of American violence against the Middle East and/or Muslims since the 1980s. In 1991, AFTER the Iraqi surrender, the US massacred thousands of Iraqi's in a retreating column back to Bagdhad. Many soldiers were lying on their backs sunning themselves - it was like a turkey shoot.

But that doesn't give them the ability to carryout the deeds on American soil the west gives them credit?

 

[peapod]

There is no way I would watch something like that. I wonder how their families feel having the whole world watch the the last moments of their loved ones lives played out on video. But than snuff movies have been around for some time I have heard.
And I cannot see how anyone could think this would further their cause. It only angers and enrages people.
I also know what a truck driver earns in wages, and If offered two thousand dollars a day to drive a truck in Iraq for halliburton, I would assume that there might be some risk and danger for that money.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Terrorist or Freedom Fighter?

George Bush: "I'm amazed that there's such misunderstanding of what our country is about that people would hate us. I am -- like most Americans, I just can't believe it because I know how good we are."

I have a shirt on right now that has a picture of George Bush an the caption "International Terrorist." I know exactly how good George Bush is. He's right up there with Osama and Pol Pot. There is no misunderstanding at all...I understand exactly what he's done and why he did it.

About a year ago Larry King asked Hunter Thompson what he thought about the Bush administration. Hunter said, "I think we should rip their heads off and piss down their throats."

I've yet to see any evidence that Hunter was mistaken.

 

[doha_jeff]

Perhaps if things were a little better for these fellows back home (job wise), there would have been no reason for them to come over and end up like they did.

It's an absolute shame that innocents have to suffer like that, but the sad fact is, they were adults who were forced to make a decision to come and work in a war torn, lawless country for financial reasons.

By the way, how is it in a country like Canada (the land of ice and taxes), with all the government scandal, 60% tax rate (you poor souls get "raped" repeatedly by your own leadership) and crappy weather, there are no politicians being kidnapped and beheaded over there?

J.

 

[hollaback]

RE: Another Beheading In

Okay, you want to know how beheading people can possibly work for terrorists, and crush their enemy.
Well, think of this...You are watching the news and suddenly notice that your mother, father, brother, sister, or best friend has been captured by some terrorist cell, and they are threatening to behead them in three days if the American troops do not leave a certain area. Your loved one was not even fighting in the war, but was captured simply beacuse they are "the enemy". How do you feel? Angry, sad, scared? Obviously, beacuse you know that there is absolutley nothing you can do about it. You plead on television for their life, hoping by some miracle, somone will care. You know that the only way he/she will live is if this stupid war was over...so you begin to resent Bush for declaring a war, you resent the idea of this war, you begin to see that no matter what Bush does terrorism will still exist, you realize that this is not the way to solve a dispute between two countries, you realize that you will never see them again, and that their death will be celebrated and shown to the world...and you hate your country for it.
Everytime someone is beheaded, tens of people stop supporting the Bush administration and the war on Iraq. So if you can't kill the troops, hit them where it hurts most, kill the innocent people, and then soon enough someone will say stop...and the terrorists will win because Americans can't stand it when their innocent people die.
I hope that helps

 

[bogie]

Can't fully agree with you on that point.

In many cases it only strengthens the resolve to crush the terrorist organizations.

For some reason "innocent" people go to these war-torn countries and expect that they will be respected as not being "the enemy". Very naive, indeed.

Journalists that think they can simply go wherever they want because they are "the media" and not involved. Aid workers, who, with all the best intentions are there to help the "innoncent" of the country, land up being killed, or, as discussed here, kidnapped.

The risk is known before they go. Their families know, their friends know, and they are warned not to go by their own governments - but they go just the same.

This is war, the meanest and most denegrating kind of war - the unknown and unrecognizable enemy - the terrorist and guerilla warrior.

If you want to know how it affects the american people, in particular, take a look at GW's support - still #1. By a slim margin, but ....

It was 9-11 that gave the US the excuse to get into the Middle East, and it was an easy step to then slid into Iraq. 9-11 was like hitting a hornets' nest with a baseball bat, and each time we see another hostage killing, it only angers the bees even more.

The US ignored the Middle East culture and society, and handled the Iraq situation miserably. The terrorists are doing likewise, by not understanding the american culture and resolve.

This is not a "win/win" situation, it is more like a "lose/lose".

Both sides need to rethink their strategies or it will only get worse.

 

[nimbus]

Re: RE: Another Beheading In

I disagree with the previous poster (hollaback).

If you read to the end of his post it says "americans can't stand it when their innocent people die."

Well, I think you're wrong. Americans have a big fat appetite for violence. They are told that killing is ok if it is for "justice" or "democracy" or "for your own good"...repeat 50 times on television and you'll have a nation of sheep convinced. Really.

Yeah, they don't like it. But it is weighed against the propaganda that confronts them. The " we need to keep the world safe for freedom" crap that Bush spouts daily. So the executions and dead troops are merely on the scale of "is it worth it?" freedom versus terror that Bush (Carl Rove et Al) professes.

When presented properly, though everyone detests innocents being killed, wouldn't it be worth it for some noble cause (of your choosing). Like if a country could go from despotism and military dictatorship to a truly enlightened democracy, wouldn't it be worth a few terrible deaths in light of all those who would've been killed under the former regime? Sure. Almost everyone would agree.And that is what Bush has bamboozled the USA into believing...

Cheers

N

(P.S. if you want some real knowledge.. search on the internet for Noam Chomsky ... he is the greatest thinker of our time , and truly cares about social justice.. Noam.. you rock!)

Okay, you want to know how beheading people can possibly work for terrorists, and crush their enemy.
Well, think of this...You are watching the news and suddenly notice that your mother, father, brother, sister, or best friend has been captured by some terrorist cell, and they are threatening to behead them in three days if the American troops do not leave a certain area. Your loved one was not even fighting in the war, but was captured simply beacuse they are "the enemy". How do you feel? Angry, sad, scared? Obviously, beacuse you know that there is absolutley nothing you can do about it. You plead on television for their life, hoping by some miracle, somone will care. You know that the only way he/she will live is if this stupid war was over...so you begin to resent Bush for declaring a war, you resent the idea of this war, you begin to see that no matter what Bush does terrorism will still exist, you realize that this is not the way to solve a dispute between two countries, you realize that you will never see them again, and that their death will be celebrated and shown to the world...and you hate your country for it.
Everytime someone is beheaded, tens of people stop supporting the Bush administration and the war on Iraq. So if you can't kill the troops, hit them where it hurts most, kill the innocent people, and then soon enough someone will say stop...and the terrorists will win because Americans can't stand it when their innocent people die.
I hope that helps

 

[peapod]

POWER POLITICS?
James Woolsey and Noam Chomsky debate
how far the U.S. can go in its foreign policy.
March 12, 1998

Your right! he is one of the great thinkers, anyone who saw that debate can confirm.