American health care crisis

[thecdn]

However, the second quote forces us to ask are waiting times and limited choice of doctors an intrinsic quality of a universal, single-payer system?

Limited choice of doctors? Have things changed that much in Canada in 7 years? I don't recall being limited to which doctor I could see.

As noted in my earlier post - In the US - here is your plan, here is your list of doctors in the plan, go to a doctor outside the plan, pay extra, opt for the plan where you can pick any doctor, pay extra.

Americans are so used to having a limited choice of doctors in their system I guess they don't even think about it anymore.

 

[Jay]

In my city you can't even get a family doctor, so not much choice in that dept.

 

[thecdn]

TheCdn

I don't get it?

If you hate it - why do you stay and put up with it?

You need a warmer climate? Bermuda, Australia, NZ, Cuba, plenty of warm climes. You should be happy, not living in a place you hate.

I don't hate everything about it, just certain things that get to me and I speak up about. If I still lived in Canada I'm sure I'd find something to complain about. Who lives in a paradise where nothing is wrong?

This reminds me of being over on army.ca. A site largely for current and former members of the armed forces with a very pronounced right wing bias. I think at least 4 people there said I should leave the US if I hated it so much. Of course they were much more belligerent about it and not as nice as you...

If I can find a programming job in my language of expertise/experience I'd strongly consider going back but I until then I'll just stay here walking around in shorts, tshirt and bare feet in January wondering what that white stuff falling from the sky on the news is

PS If anything I'd want a cooler more moderate climate. Last week we hit 90 a couple of times with more of the same next week. Soon to start 4 or 5 months of high humidity hell here.....

 

[sanch]

DB it is not this one sided. You would not have the level of foreign dominance that exists in Canada without the complicity of the Canadian government. The government in Canada provides the means and opportunity for the entry of capital and there are certain individuals and corporations in Canada that benefit enormously from this arrangement. Ordinary Canadians get screwed but they don’t seem to mind.

What is needed in Canada are case studies on how large US corporations such as Lockheed Martin and Nelnet were able to procure lucrative contracts in Canada. It’s not only a matter of examining the fine print but examining their relationship with private individuals and the relationship these individuals have with the government. There needs to be total transparency. As it stands these previous penetrations will simply serve as templates for future attempts such as those made by large private health insurers.

One can use a hockey game to illustrate how US and foreign capital successfully implants itself in Canada. The US team is on the ice. There are no Canadian players on the ice. The government because it typically acts in its own self-interest and not the interest of ordinary Canadians is up in the high bleachers inking deals. The stands are full of Canadians though pelting eggs and screaming obscenities at the US team. The US team is undeterred as they know they will win as they see an empty net. They shoot! They score!

 

[pastafarian]

Gee if we pay for all that socialized medicine in the U.S.A. who is gonna take care of all the U.N. necessaries? That would be a fact

Spoken like a true ideologue.

It's been shown again and again, and I posted the references in a previous thread, that the overhead adminstrative costs of private healthcare make the services much more expensive both at the patient level, and in the proportion of tax revenues required to maintain Medicare and Medicaid vs Canada's "socialist" system, so you're "fact" (which is actually a question) is based on nothing.

Sure, people in poverty aspire to the riches of a capitalist system, but as recent elections in South America show, this is not Universal, when there's a socialist alternative that is viable.

Since the leading cause of bankruptcy in the US is healthcare payments, outcomes are no better on average in the US than in Canada (and far worse wrt to many measures like infant mortality), even with our broken "socialist" system, more US tax dollars go to healthcare per capita than here, and 10% of the Canadian population isn't without any health insurance. It's clear to see why ouir system, even broken, is better than what we'd get iof we let the HMO's across our border.

 

[Jay]

Since when have "socialists" cared if it costs us a few more dollars to pay for something? They tax the hell out of you.....and call you greedy if you complain. It's a BS argument and none of anyone's business anyways.

I’ll pay a little more thanks, especially if it means not having 15 hour wait times in ER.

 

[pastafarian]

For those interested in some numbers. Keep in mind that things have worsened during the last 10-15 years:
US healthcare: comparisons with other countries.

 

[darkbeaver]

DB it is not this one sided. You would not have the level of foreign dominance that exists in Canada without the complicity of the Canadian government. The government in Canada provides the means and opportunity for the entry of capital and there are certain individuals and corporations in Canada that benefit enormously from this arrangement. Ordinary Canadians get screwed but they don’t seem to mind.

What is needed in Canada are case studies on how large US corporations such as Lockheed Martin and Nelnet were able to procure lucrative contracts in Canada. It’s not only a matter of examining the fine print but examining their relationship with private individuals and the relationship these individuals have with the government. There needs to be total transparency. As it stands these previous penetrations will simply serve as templates for future attempts such as those made by large private health insurers.

One can use a hockey game to illustrate how US and foreign capital successfully implants itself in Canada. The US team is on the ice. There are no Canadian players on the ice. The government because it typically acts in its own self-interest and not the interest of ordinary Canadians is up in the high bleachers inking deals. The stands are full of Canadians though pelting eggs and screaming obscenities at the US team. The US team is undeterred as they know they will win as they see an empty net. They shoot! They score!

You're confusing Government with the corporate pigs who have infiltrated it.

 

[darkbeaver]

Pasta and Beav

Gee if we pay for all that socialized medicine in the U.S.A. who is gonna take care of all the U.N. necessaries? That would be a fact.

Can't be everywhere - can't be ideologues every day of the week.

It was good so see the people supporting each other in the boycott - but I think they would rather be legal with an opportunity to become citizens.

If you think the people of Mexico and S.A. wish to become socialists, you are way wrong. You should see some of their beautiful casas and exported autos and gorgeously dressed women with their jewels. They make the U.S.A. seem like the land of honey. They are like any red blooded humans who want the American dream. It's called capitalism.
But the little brothers and sisters marching?
They could have spent the day filling out the right forms for application to become legal.

Oh dear my ideologies are getting in the way again. :roll:

Universal public health cost less than private because the profit is controlled. The American dream is dead, most obviously in America, capitalism stands for hate, corrpution and deciet.

 

[sanch]

You're confusing Government with the corporate pigs who have infiltrated it.

I wasn't aware there was a seperation of powers in Canada. I've never been confused about the distinction. I've always seen them as one entity.

You are saying private health care is inevitable in Canada and I agree if there is no attempt to stop it. The most obvious way to start is to invest in the public system and fix all the problems so private care is not continuously invoked as the only alterantive.

Yelling about corporate pigs is not going to solve any problems.

 

[sanch]

Re: RE: American health care crisis

Since when have "socialists" cared if it costs us a few more dollars to pay for something? They tax the hell out of you.....and call you greedy if you complain. It's a BS argument and none of anyone's business anyways.

I’ll pay a little more thanks, especially if it means not having 15 hour wait times in ER.

Jay you will have to wait just as long in the ER in the US as in Canada. There are people who will gladly take your money for that priviledge.

 

[Toro]

Generalizing big time there Toro.

No question about it.

There are all sorts of problems with the US system.

However, how many people do you know living in America look to Canada as the solution?

 

[pastafarian]

You are saying private health care is inevitable in Canada and I agree if there is no attempt to stop it. The most obvious way to start is to invest in the public system and fix all the problems so private care is not continuously invoked as the only alterantive.

Absolutely right, but with the Romanow report now but a vague memory, Harper in power and the press constantly crying "the system is broken; the system is broken!" without gving the context, we get the knee-jerk pro-privatisation responses from the public. The private sector is lobbying like crazy to get the Canada Health Act scrapped and for jurisdiction to be re-assigned to the provinces-- divide and conquer.

 

[Toro]

In an extensive ABCNEWS/Washington Post poll, Americans by a 2-1 margin, 62-32 percent, prefer a universal health insurance program over the current employer-based system.

So, the ideologues are wrong as usual, No surprise.

However, the article does go on to say:

That support, however, is conditional: It falls to fewer than four in 10 if it means a limited choice of doctors, or waiting lists for non-emergency treatments.

Sure, and then throw in the caveat "paid for with higher taxes" and you are comparable to "Elvis is still alive" numbers.

So, yes you ideologues aer wrong, as usual.

 

[Jay]

I can't see how it is good for us to have our entire health care system subject to government budgets. We simply shouldn't be fighting about this. The feds backed out of their end of the deal, the system is faulty and the cracks are showing...they can't raise taxes and waiting times are a serious problem, not to mention there is nothing you can do as an individual to protect yourself. The only dead dream here is a federally run health system.

The idea was "no one left behind"...and they haven't been able to accomplish that, as we see from the post I made in the other thread where people died because of waiting times.

 

[Toro]

For those interested in some numbers. Keep in mind that things have worsened during the last 10-15 years:
US healthcare: comparisons with other countries.

Is the US Supreme Court saying that the medical system is violating an individuals rights like in Canada?

I wonder why that would be.

 

[Toro]

RE: American health care

And since we're comparing

 

[Toro]

RE: American health care

Healthcare waiting times in Canada have been rising.

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/books/chapterfiles/WYT2005pt2.pdf#

 

[Sassylassie]

Wow Toro, we arn't even on the list?

 

[Jay]

For those interested in some numbers. Keep in mind that things have worsened during the last 10-15 years:
US healthcare: comparisons with other countries.

Is the US Supreme Court saying that the medical system is violating an individuals rights like in Canada?

I wonder why that would be.

It seems to be something we aren't allowed to question.