Is being stupid an excuse ... like broadening a persecution sweep in serving the National Grudge?
Alleged SS Auschwitz guard arrested in Germany
- Thread starter Blackleaf
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You realise this man was SS, right? An elite, all-volunteer service, extremely hard to get into, and very easy to get demoted out of.
Pretending this man was just another conscript is repulsive.
History shows that the SS were a nasty bunch of thugs and you are being very naive if you believe that Lipschis was too young too commit war crimes. Some of them committed atrocities when they were barely out of their teens.
Take the case of Irma Grese.
She became an SS guard at Auschwitz in March 1943 at the age of just 19 and by the end of that year was Senior Supervisor, the second highest ranking woman at the camp, in charge of around 30,000 Jewish female prisoners. She ended her murderous "career" at Bergen-Belsen. Despite being just a young girl she quickly earned the nicknames "the Beast of Belsen", "The Beautiful Beast", and "Die Hyäne von Auschwitz" ("The Hyena of Auschwitz").
Irma Grese, the "Beast of Belsen", committed sadistic crimes despite being barely out of her teens
Grese was captured by the British on 17th April 1945 after they liberated Bergen-Belsen, along with several other members of the SS. She was one of 45 people accused of war crimes at the Belsen Trial.
The trials were conducted under British military law in Lüneburg, and the charges derived from the Geneva Convention of 1929 regarding the treatment of prisoners. The accusations against her centred on her ill-treatment and murder of those imprisoned at the camps, including setting dogs on inmates, shootings and sadistic beatings with a whip. Survivors provided detailed testimony of murders, tortures, and other cruelties, especially towards women, in which Grese engaged during her years at Auschwitz and Bergen-Belsen. They testified to acts of sadism, beatings and arbitrary shootings of prisoners, savaging of prisoners by her trained and allegedly half-starved dogs, and to her selecting prisoners for the gas chambers. Grese was reported to have habitually worn heavy boots and carried a whip and a pistol. Witnesses testified that she used both physical and emotional methods to torture the camp's inmates and enjoyed shooting prisoners in cold blood. They also claimed that she beat some women to death and whipped others using a plaited whip.
Grese and ten others (eight men and two other women; Juana Bormann and Elisabeth Volkenrath) were convicted for crimes against humanity in both Auschwitz and Belsen and then sentenced to death. As the verdicts were read, Grese was the only prisoner to remain defiant; her subsequent appeal was rejected. She was to be hanged by famed British executioner Albert Pierrepoint.
In "Nazi She-Devils", the Mirror reports: Despite being dressed in drab prison garb, the vain Grese - dubbed "the Beautiful Beast" by inmates - used rags to put ringlets in her hair. And, The night before her execution Grese laughed and sang Nazi songs with fellow SS torturer Elizabeth Volkenrath.
On Thursday, 13 December 1945, in Hamelin Jail, Grese was led to the gallows. The women were hanged singly first and then the men in pairs. Regimental Sergeant-Major O'Neil assisted Albert Pierrepoint:
... we climbed the stairs to the cells where the condemned were waiting. A German officer at the door leading to the corridor flung open the door and we filed past the row of faces and into the execution chamber. The officers stood at attention. Brigadier Paton-Walsh stood with his wristwatch raised. He gave me the signal, and a sigh of released breath was audible in the chamber, I walked into the corridor. 'Irma Grese', I called.
The German guards quickly closed all grills on twelve of the inspection holes and opened one door. Irma Grese stepped out. The cell was far too small for me to go inside, and I had to pinion her in the corridor. 'Follow me,' I said in English, and O'Neil repeated the order in German. At 9.34 a.m. she walked into the execution chamber, gazed for a moment at the officials standing round it, then walked on to the centre of the trap, where I had made a chalk mark. She stood on this mark very firmly, and as I placed the white cap over her head she said in her languid voice, 'Schnell'. [English translation: 'Quickly.'] The drop crashed down, and the doctor followed me into the pit and pronounced her dead. After twenty minutes the body was taken down and placed in a coffin ready for burial.
Famed British naval aviator Eric Brown, who is fluent in German and who interviewed certain Nazis for the Nuremberg trials, has described Irma Grese as "The worst human being I have ever met"and asserted (without evidence) that "She was the one who made lampshades from the skins of prisoners and that sort of thing"The German guards quickly closed all grills on twelve of the inspection holes and opened one door. Irma Grese stepped out. The cell was far too small for me to go inside, and I had to pinion her in the corridor. 'Follow me,' I said in English, and O'Neil repeated the order in German. At 9.34 a.m. she walked into the execution chamber, gazed for a moment at the officials standing round it, then walked on to the centre of the trap, where I had made a chalk mark. She stood on this mark very firmly, and as I placed the white cap over her head she said in her languid voice, 'Schnell'. [English translation: 'Quickly.'] The drop crashed down, and the doctor followed me into the pit and pronounced her dead. After twenty minutes the body was taken down and placed in a coffin ready for burial.
Executed at 22 years, 67 days of age, Grese was the youngest woman to die judicially under English law in the 20th century.
Irma Grese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Alleged to be SS, to be specific. If he was 19, he wouldn't be in charge of much. Not exactly an Eichmann or a Mengele here. Still, he should be tried if there is specific evidence against him.
Hopefully the last one, though.
Of course alleged. I thought that went without saying. But, if it helps, my opinion is that this allegedly German alleged man should be tried for allegedly being an alleged SS alleged soldier and allegedly a guard at alleged Auschwitz which is alleged to have been an alleged death alleged camp.
Poor thing. She was just misunderstood.
Oh they were a nasty bunch of thugs. No doubt about it. A worst case scenario--when the worst human beings rise to the highest positions of authority, cry "Havoc" and let slip the dogs of war. But I'm also not naive enough that that level of cruelty was peculiar to the Nazis.
No, it doesn't go without saying. there is in fact a signfiicant difference between "murderer" and "allleged murderer." I share your opinion.
All the guy at Nurenberg'll be sitting around dead too...
Hell this guy could get life...........................
:lol::lol::lol:
Eichman tried the following orders defence. Nope. No go.
Still nope.
those soldiers would probably be occupying the same mass grave as their victims
I'm not disagreeing with you, but what does trying a 93 year old man do in the end; what benefit does it serve to society?
Don't have a clue about this, would have to look it up and get back to you. Off the top of my head though, if the person still had quite a bit of life left to live, then no, don't disagree with it at all.
Actually I did I answer your question, I just didn't set a specific, set in stone age in it: Early enough in his life to matter. If they had caught him even fifteen to twenty years ago, when there was still "time" left for him, yeah, I'd be all for giving him a trial and if found guilty, following up with whatever sentence is given. But at 93, he might not even survive the trail; sure his health may be good now, but in a month? Two months? So again, what would the point be?
Under normal circumstances if this guy was an army cook that is one thing.
However did you read the initials SS Guard. Those people were not the
regulars, the ordinary guy who did his duty. No the SS were elite fanatics
who took great Zeal in killing those who they considered inferior. There should
be no place on the planet for former SS troops. Put him on trail for his crimes.
I have no words that would allow me to defend an SS or Brown Shirt from those
times.
Remember these were not conscripts or forced to duty soldiers or guards they
were SS special people who volunteered to be SS specially trained and allowed
special privilege. Hiding behind I had to do it does not apply in this case.
However did you read the initials SS Guard. Those people were not the
regulars, the ordinary guy who did his duty. No the SS were elite fanatics
who took great Zeal in killing those who they considered inferior. There should
be no place on the planet for former SS troops. Put him on trail for his crimes.
I have no words that would allow me to defend an SS or Brown Shirt from those
times.
Remember these were not conscripts or forced to duty soldiers or guards they
were SS special people who volunteered to be SS specially trained and allowed
special privilege. Hiding behind I had to do it does not apply in this case.
The above testimony is consistent will the bulk of the Nuremberg evidence. In other words it is complete rubbish. The link of course is consistent with the unreliable testimony given at Nuremberg. Torture was extensively employed at the Nuremberg trials.
all volunteer? Source? I know that SS officers were chosen for 'racial purity', etc., but being chosen, and being given a choice, aren't the same.
I'm not 'pretending' anything, I'm telling you what my impression of this extension of the prosecutions is.
Well, he's right, you know. What actually happened is that six million Jews, Rom, homosexuals, and persons with disabilities deliberately starved themselved to death to discredit the National Socialists.
The war was a film shot in East Siberia. Never happened.